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Psychedelic Paul View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2023 at 09:54
Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Gentle Giant, King Crimson and Van der Graaf Generator are the three most overrated bands on ProgArchives. Shocked


The former and the latter I've tried several times over the years to get into but to no avail (the same goes for Gong). As for KC, have only ever really liked the albums with Greg Lake, i.e. ITCOTCK and ITWOP.
I feel exactly the same way about King Crimson - In the Court of the Crimson King & In the Wake of Poseidon are the only two King Crimson albums worth buying.

You've tried to get into Gong, but have you tried Pierre Moerlen's Gong, which is a different sounding band entirely. Their Downwind album sounds like Mike Oldfield on steroids! Thumbs Up



Edited by Psychedelic Paul - November 30 2023 at 09:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2023 at 09:52
^ King Crimson were a 'project band' so basically Fripp plus anyone else who could put up with him. It might almost help to think of them as several bands. I like Red, Lizard and Power To Believe the most.

Gentle Giant is a 'prog badge' thing. Pay homage or hand in the badge. Yep not a very 'enjoyable' band, ultimate prog nerd band if ever there was!

VDGG are a totally off the scale band. Probably the best composed crafted prog of the lot but you have to get past Hammill's vocals! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progishness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2023 at 09:38
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Gentle Giant, King Crimson and Van der Graaf Generator are the three most overrated bands on ProgArchives. Shocked


The former and the latter I've tried several times over the years to get into but to no avail (the same goes for Gong). As for KC, have only ever really liked the albums with Greg Lake, i.e. ITCOTCK and ITWOP.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2023 at 09:28
Originally posted by essexboyinwales essexboyinwales wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

^ Contrary to that, I really do believe Resistance is IQ's best album, at least until the novelty value of a new album wears off again. Tongue


It’s nearly 5 years old!!!

That's true, but I've only listened to the album twice so far. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote essexboyinwales Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2023 at 09:13
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

^ Contrary to that, I really do believe Resistance is IQ's best album, at least until the novelty value of a new album wears off again. Tongue


It’s nearly 5 years old!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2023 at 09:10
Originally posted by Zappastolethetowels Zappastolethetowels wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Zappastolethetowels Zappastolethetowels wrote:

Supertramp are closer to ELO, APP, and the Moody Blues of the time than Prog.
Prog live albums should not be counted as part of a studio discography!
I find the run of Poseidon through Islands more engaging than the debut of KC.
Rush and Dream Theater never made a timeless record (I hope I don't summon Big Sky LOL)
Yes made nothing great post-Relayer.
Canterbury prog is underrated and Camel are not Canterbury! 
ATOTT by Genesis is a snooze fest!
Soft Machine's Fourth is their masterpiece!
D. Allen's Gong was lame (with the exception of the first 2)
You are hard pressed to find a M. Davis record you can sit through and thoroughly enjoy! I love J. Johnson though!
Most Krautrock is aimless goofy noodling or just pathetic!
75, 77-79 were best periods for Tull's music! 


Genesis were closer to APP, ELO and Supertramp than they were to prog (ELP and Yes). Song writing v instrumental based prog.Genesis were great song writers and so were Supertramp. I would even go as far as to say that Crime Of The Century is better than SEBTP.
The live album thing only seems to happen with Pink Floyd
Canterbury is a snooze fest as are Camel most of the time (prog's equivalent of elevator music)
ATTWT actually has the 'balls' that a lot of Genesis lacks and no stupid tracks like The Battle Of Epping Forest thank god
Soft Machine have a lot of noodling, even on PA no one really cares about them!
No one really cares about Gong either
Miles Davis is not prog (not a hot take)
Krautrock - don't know why anyone listens to it (even Germans hate it mostly)
Yeah right lol

A few more of my own personal hot takes:
Jazz fusion/jazz rock is not prog
''Prog'' does not equal progressive music ( and doesn't need to)
Progressive music can happen in any genre, its not the prisoner of a few English seventies bands that in themselves didn't invent music
Rush were as progressive as any band in the late seventies (but there was bugger all else!)
Marillion were more interesting than Genesis (Forgotten Sons on its own is more interesting than the vast amount of even classic era Genesis)

Later Genesis falls into that sphere, certainly not Selling... therefore you can't compare it to Crime... bc we're talking different styles of music.
I don't think you gave Canterbury a fair shot - there is more out there beyond Caravan and the Softs. As for Camel, their career is too varied to be lumped into sounding like elevator music. 
Nobody on PA cares about the Softs and Gong - are you sure?? 
What's so funny about late 70's Tull?

As for your takes...
1. really, doesn't make a difference to me in the least
2. that comes down to personal convenience - you can't change people
3. sure, but Prog Rock happened to be invented and excelled at by the British
4. Rush are still living off the fame and fortunes of being the first to extend repetitive riffage upon a broad synthetic canvas and then calling it prog metal. Hey look Alex, we are pioneers now! Just not long ago, we sounded like a garage band until a great manager decided he can make a load of a buck letting us play however we want! Ermm
5. Can't comment as I don't know Marillion well, but that in itself sounds highly unlikely. You can't just plainly dismiss those legendary 5 albums! Confused


Genesis - you can compare early Genesis to Supertramp , that's my point. Even Banks wasn't happy that Genesis were lumped in with the likes of ELP and Yes. Essentially Genesis were skilled song writers who knew how to extend songs. ELP and Yes were more 'technical'. I realise just how subjective this may be but my opinion is that SEBTP is not that far removed from Crime Of The Century, just a bit quirkier perhaps. Yes I would compare ATTWT with Breakfast In America. (love both)

Probably true on Canterbury. I was 'fishing' a bit. My favourite album of the year is Zopp's Dominion and apparently they are Caravan 'clones'. Obviously I wouldn't know!

Camel - I actually like The Snow Goose but if honestly they hadn't done that then I wouldn't care about them . I see them as a second generation prog band that added very little to what had come before.

Don't see a lot of discussion about Gong and Soft Machine and I've been here a long time.

Tull - it's the other way round. Aqualung and TAAB are exceptional albums, I just can't see any other period being better.  Overall a great seventies band that didn't have any major peaks or troughs.

Rush - back in the day (75-77) I really didn't like them and wasn't alone. Tom Sawyer literally changed my mind about them totally although I did get a bit bored with their late 80's very early 90's synth pop period when the seemingly wanted to be The Police. Came back to them in the 90's when they started developing a harder edge again and were writing songs that actually meant something to me at the time (no other bands were doing that for me) . I don't remember them ever being called 'Prog metal' and in general no one sees them that way I think. There have been a lot of discussions about even when 'Metal' started although I suspect that Rainbow are more important in that regards. Rush were essentially a band for nerds to enjoy especially in the late seventies when punk was happening.

Marillion - bigging them up at the moment because themes they explored seem very relevant now and more than ever. I still like early Genesis but they get more and more dated by the minute. 
IMO.
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Psychedelic Paul View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2023 at 09:10
^ Contrary to that, I really do believe Resistance is IQ's best album, at least until the novelty value of a new album wears off again. Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote essexboyinwales Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2023 at 09:04
It’s freezing in South Wales too - coldest 10k I’ve ever run this morning!!!

OK, now I’ve read through the thread and put that silly argument to bed (😉), here’s one or two of these Hot Take things from me:

The song Close To The Edge, by the British progressive rock band Yes, is really not very good. This links with the fact that:
Steve Howe’s guitar sound is horrible - Trevor Rabin’s is far superior
Awake ranks quite low in the DT discography (but not the worst!!)
All eras of IQ rank as highly as each other, but:
Resistance is IQ’s “worst” album
Marillion’s Marbles is a long way from the masterpiece it is claimed to be by so many

Heaven is waiting but waiting is Hell
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2023 at 08:52

🥶

  Which reminds me, I'm wearing a woolly palaver today to keep warm. It's freezing here in Nottingham!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frets N Worries Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2023 at 07:59
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Originally posted by Frets N Worries Frets N Worries wrote:

Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Roy Harper, Peter Hammill & Robert Wyatt are the three worst singers in prog!

A hot take for sure, but does anyone agree? Ermm

 
With regards to Peter Hammill, I would like to see an opinion from "The Charismatic Voice" about this. I've considered suggesting him to her, but do not know what the most appropriate choice of song would be for her to analyse. But I am one who thinks that a great singer is one who exhibits great control over their voice, and it is clear to me that Peter Hammill's singing is incredibly nuanced.

I'd go with Pilgrims, Childlike Faith in Childhoods End, or The Sleepwalkers
 
As I see it, the only reason for not recommending "A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers" is its length (which is likely to be too long from her perspective). I think "A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers" has everything a Hammill fan would want, whereas no other tracks seem to have quite the range of expressiveness, as great as they are.
 


Oh 'A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers' is amazing, that's why I didn't recommend it. Sadly, not everyone wants to listen to a track that long. I just recommended those other ones b/c they're shorter. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omphaloskepsis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2023 at 07:34
The soundtrack to The Who's Tommy is better than the original album. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2023 at 07:21
Originally posted by Frets N Worries Frets N Worries wrote:

Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Roy Harper, Peter Hammill & Robert Wyatt are the three worst singers in prog!

A hot take for sure, but does anyone agree? Ermm

 
With regards to Peter Hammill, I would like to see an opinion from "The Charismatic Voice" about this. I've considered suggesting him to her, but do not know what the most appropriate choice of song would be for her to analyse. But I am one who thinks that a great singer is one who exhibits great control over their voice, and it is clear to me that Peter Hammill's singing is incredibly nuanced.

I'd go with Pilgrims, Childlike Faith in Childhoods End, or The Sleepwalkers
 
As I see it, the only reason for not recommending "A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers" is its length (which is likely to be too long from her perspective). I think "A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers" has everything a Hammill fan would want, whereas no other tracks seem to have quite the range of expressiveness, as great as they are.
 

No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2023 at 06:23
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Roy Harper, Peter Hammill & Robert Wyatt are the three worst singers in prog!

A hot take for sure, but does anyone agree? Ermm
I like Hammill, not familiar with Harper, but I agree Wyatt has a difficult voice to acclimate to.

However, the worst singer in prog is IQ's Peter Nicholls. Disapprove
I'm a fan of IQ, but I know exactly what you mean about Peter Nicholls irritating voice. Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2023 at 06:11
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Jazz fusion/jazz rock is not prog
Agree.
 
I actually don't agree. To me, the only justification for saying that Jazz fusion/jazz rock is not prog is that Jazz fusion/jazz rock is its own thing, with the view that prog is a small umbrella. Listening to something like "Imaginary Voyage", I hear the same sorts of things that I love that I do when listening to "Close to the Edge". In other words, I don't think there is a huge difference between Jazz fusion/jazz rock and Symphonic prog.
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frets N Worries Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2023 at 05:50
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Roy Harper, Peter Hammill & Robert Wyatt are the three worst singers in prog!

A hot take for sure, but does anyone agree? Ermm

 
With regards to Peter Hammill, I would like to see an opinion from "The Charismatic Voice" about this. I've considered suggesting him to her, but do not know what the most appropriate choice of song would be for her to analyse. But I am one who thinks that a great singer is one who exhibits great control over their voice, and it is clear to me that Peter Hammill's singing is incredibly nuanced.
 



I'd go with Pilgrims, Childlike Faith in Childhoods End, or The Sleepwalkers
The Wheel of Time Turns, and Ages come and pass. What was, what will be, and what is, may yet fall under the shadow.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2023 at 05:43
Gentle Giant, King Crimson and Van der Graaf Generator are the three most overrated bands on ProgArchives. Shocked
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2023 at 05:42
Originally posted by Error Code 864G Error Code 864G wrote:

I don't know if this is a "hot take," but the best progressive rock band is Van Der Graaf Generator and you cannot change my mind.
 
I don't think this is a "hot take". For me, a "hot take" is more like the album "Time Vaults" being one of my favourite VdGG albums. I did choose it as my avatar. Actually, it is really only the last four tracks on the CD that I love (in spite of the poor sound quality): Roncevaux, It All Went Up, Faint And Forsaken, Blackroom.
 

No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2023 at 05:28
Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

VDGG's album "Pawn Hearts" is a masterpiece, but their other recordings are not in the same league as this great album.
 
VDGG's album "Pawn Hearts" is a masterpiece, but their other recordings are not in the same league as this great album.
 
FIXED.
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2023 at 05:23
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Roy Harper, Peter Hammill & Robert Wyatt are the three worst singers in prog!

A hot take for sure, but does anyone agree? Ermm
 
With regards to Peter Hammill, I would like to see an opinion from "The Charismatic Voice" about this. I've considered suggesting him to her, but do not know what the most appropriate choice of song would be for her to analyse. But I am one who thinks that a great singer is one who exhibits great control over their voice, and it is clear to me that Peter Hammill's singing is incredibly nuanced.
 

No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progishness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2023 at 02:41
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Jazz fusion/jazz rock is not prog
Agree. But PA says they are so I will continue to label them as so.

I could argue Zeuhl and Krautrock aren't prog either.


I would tetchily agree regarding Jazz Rock/Fusion and Zheul (the latter I have tried but just cannot get into at all), tho I think think there is a place for Krautrock here as most of us who grew up with 70's prog would have had a few Amon Duul II or Faust albums in our collections.
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