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Do any other younger prog fans feel this way?

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Psychedelic Paul View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2023 at 14:58
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Quote Oasis (ugh!)
DON'T YOU DARE TALK S*** ABOUT OASIS!
Seriously? Oasis sucks ass.
Oasis are the last watering hole I'd choose to stop by at. I'd much rather listen to the sweet sound of Gallagher & Lyle than the noisy and arrogant Gallagher brothers. Thumbs Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2023 at 15:36
Quote Seriously? Oasis sucks ass.
Yes. Seriously. Oasis was a great band with memorable and well written songs. Noel's songwriting really shined, and the powerful emotional arrangements with that characteristic overdriven guitar and squeaky clean acoustic guitar accompaniment were pretty superb. Liam's vocals are acquired taste but I like them. Besides, I've heard multiple times, from prog fans, that Oasis sucked, yet nobody was able to ellaborate on their opinion as to why.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2023 at 23:21
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Quote Seventies prog was very UK centric

It's a myth people blindly trust for some reason. Prog was born in the UK, but soon it spread onto other places, like the rest of Europe, the US, and later other countries where there were already strong rock music scenes, like, I dunno, Canada, Japan, Argentina and so on. And by 1979 prog was made all over the map, despite its decline in the UK.



Hardly a myth. The Big Six is recognised to be ELP, Yes, Genesis, ,Floyd, Tull and Crimson. There is a reaon for that. The other bands came later so 'progressive rock' in its purest form was set down by British bands.

I am a little annoyed that you took my comment out my my main comment and totally ignored the fact that I credited Italy as being very significant. The likes of Banco and PFM are very important but it still doesn't change the main fact that I stated. I'm not being a petty little Englander. Even prog fans from the USA admit they were late to the party. Yes it spread there but again USA prog fans make a distinction between Prog and Fusion. Actual prog bands from the US in the 70's are harder to find and are hardly discussed (Cathedral are an example, heard of them?). Kansas are the most famous but they were leaving any Symph style behined as early as 1975 (Masque) and creating what would eveb now be called 'Crossover'. It was already 'prog lite' even at that point IMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2023 at 00:17
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Quote Seventies prog was very UK centric

It's a myth people blindly trust for some reason. Prog was born in the UK, but soon it spread onto other places, like the rest of Europe, the US, and later other countries where there were already strong rock music scenes, like, I dunno, Canada, Japan, Argentina and so on. And by 1979 prog was made all over the map, despite its decline in the UK.

Quote Oasis (ugh!)
DON'T YOU DARE TALK SHІT ABOUT OASIS!

HAR!  OK, songs like "Champagne Super-Nova" represent the HEIGHT, nay, the very PINNACLE of musicianship of the era!!  In fact, they rivaled weaker compositions such as, oh, "Close to the Edge" or "Fracture."  

I'll say it again.  Oasis, ugh.  Good riddance.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2023 at 10:40
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

...
HAR!  OK, songs like "Champagne Super-Nova" represent the HEIGHT, nay, the very PINNACLE of musicianship of the era!!  In fact, they rivaled weaker compositions such as, oh, "Close to the Edge" or "Fracture."  

I'll say it again.  Oasis, ugh.  Good riddance.  

Hi,

It's scary that a thread that is really more about "philosophical" thoughts and ideas, ends up with folks simply mentioning their favorites and not saying anything about what makes them feel they fit into the discussion.

This thread should probably be more interesting than folks simply mentioning their favorites ... so sad to see this, and the lack of appreciation for a thread of this kind! 

It shouldn't be that one composition is stronger/weaker than another ... one should express WHY!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evolver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2023 at 11:51
At 65, I find this is a good era for prog.
Sure the major record label (have they consolidated into one single entity yet?) almost completely ignores the genre, it absolutely is far easier to find progressive bands than it was in the miserable 1980's, and the somewhat less dreary 1990's.

I still find new artists that can give me the same feeling now, as I felt half a century ago when I would buy an album and listen to a completely transcendent performance, especially when played by artists I've never heard of before.  

I will admit that I receive plenty of promotional downloads due to my position as a reviewer and team member here, but when I find and album (or sometimes just a song) that blows my mind, I go out of my way to purchase a hard copy when possible, or at least a high-quality download, and pay them more than the asking price when the option is there.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2023 at 19:17
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

...
HAR!  OK, songs like "Champagne Super-Nova" represent the HEIGHT, nay, the very PINNACLE of musicianship of the era!!  In fact, they rivaled weaker compositions such as, oh, "Close to the Edge" or "Fracture."  

I'll say it again.  Oasis, ugh.  Good riddance.  

Hi,

It's scary that a thread that is really more about "philosophical" thoughts and ideas, ends up with folks simply mentioning their favorites and not saying anything about what makes them feel they fit into the discussion.

This thread should probably be more interesting than folks simply mentioning their favorites ... so sad to see this, and the lack of appreciation for a thread of this kind! 

It shouldn't be that one composition is stronger/weaker than another ... one should express WHY!

Oasis was a vacuous, media creation that amplified vapid songwriting and inferior musicianship into a brief fling with popularity.

No different than what happened with the Monkees and other groups.  For those who liked Oasis, best wishes. 

However...where are they now?  I never hear their music anywhere.   Mediocre music that was plumped up by a media machine.  Same with Justin Frickin' Bieber.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote presdoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2023 at 19:49
I'm 60, so was only 8 years old in 1970, but as I grew up in the 1970s I was aware of progressive rock, and had an idea of it's importance, but was not into it at that time. People like Chuck Stack (cstack3) have a much wider experience of early prog live, and he even saw my heroes Triumvirat open for Fleetwood Mac in the fall of '74 ( I would have been only 11 at the time)
                  I did not discover Triumvirat and other progressive rock really until the mid 1980s, but as I did not like 80s music at the time, I was enamoured with 70s prog, so I am kind of in between those who knew early prog like the back of their hand, and those that were born much later on.
                 I have to say that I am saddened by the passing of many of these prog pioneers that are/were my musical heroes; it hurt like hell when I heard that Triumvirat's Helmut Koellen died so long ago back in '77, and it is even sadder living in an era now where not a couple of weeks pass without us losing another musical person.
                 I stopped going to live concerts in around 1990 due to permanent tinnitus but still listen avidly on record, and always will.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2023 at 20:22
Quote inferior musicianship
I disagree. The musicianship in Oasis was amazing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2023 at 20:27
I'm not sure how Oasis have drifted into the thread. Amusingly Noel Gallagher met Paul McCartney once and Macca said something like 'this sounds familiar!'. Noel wasn't happy at all lol. Personally I would credit Oasis with bringing back proper gritty rock n roll style music back into the mainstream after many years of plastic record company driven stuff. They were talented both as writers and performers and could do it all. I respect them and enjoy their classic songs when they pop up. They are well remembered in the UK. The USA will always be different on these things as it has more history with Blues and Country music than we have. Also I remember Keith Emerson saying that they were part of a revival of 'good' rock music that was happening . If 'God' thought that then it's good enough for me as well!

Edited by richardh - October 25 2023 at 20:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Hercules Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2023 at 16:09
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Quote Seriously? Oasis sucks ass.
Yes. Seriously. Oasis was a great band with memorable and well written songs. Noel's songwriting really shined, and the powerful emotional arrangements with that characteristic overdriven guitar and squeaky clean acoustic guitar accompaniment were pretty superb. Liam's vocals are acquired taste but I like them. Besides, I've heard multiple times, from prog fans, that Oasis sucked, yet nobody was able to ellaborate on their opinion as to why.
1) Liam's voice is worse than fingernails down a blackboard
2) The band are average musicians
3) The songs are dreary and boring.
How's that for starters?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Hercules Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2023 at 16:13
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Quote inferior musicianship
I disagree. The musicianship in Oasis was amazing.
Are you sure you're on the right site?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2023 at 16:53
Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Quote Seriously? Oasis sucks ass.
Yes. Seriously. Oasis was a great band with memorable and well written songs. Noel's songwriting really shined, and the powerful emotional arrangements with that characteristic overdriven guitar and squeaky clean acoustic guitar accompaniment were pretty superb. Liam's vocals are acquired taste but I like them. Besides, I've heard multiple times, from prog fans, that Oasis sucked, yet nobody was able to ellaborate on their opinion as to why.
1) Liam's voice is worse than fingernails down a blackboard. So is Peter Hammill's, Geddy Lee's and a lots of other prog singers, but people like them. Its a very personal taste thing.
2) The band are average musicians. Compared to who? That's very sweeping. They were good at what they did and it wasn't meant to be technical at all.
3) The songs are dreary and boring. Again that is an opinion not any kind of fact at all. There is a lot of very dreary and boring music that has been made and Oasis arent anywhere near top of that list in my opinion. They weren't prog thats for sure. Personally I find 80's King Crimson dreary and boring as well as most fusion based music. Its all in the ear of the beholder.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2023 at 17:24
Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Quote Seriously? Oasis sucks ass.
Yes. Seriously. Oasis was a great band with memorable and well written songs. Noel's songwriting really shined, and the powerful emotional arrangements with that characteristic overdriven guitar and squeaky clean acoustic guitar accompaniment were pretty superb. Liam's vocals are acquired taste but I like them. Besides, I've heard multiple times, from prog fans, that Oasis sucked, yet nobody was able to ellaborate on their opinion as to why.
1) Liam's voice is worse than fingernails down a blackboard
2) The band are average musicians
3) The songs are dreary and boring.
How's that for starters?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Frets N Worries Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2023 at 18:40
^And the lyrics aren't great either in my opinion, sure they could write a hook, so many bands could.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2023 at 01:32
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Without the 70's prog pioneers, there wouldn't be "modern prog"
OK, so what does that have to do with Frets statement that "the greatest prog was made in the 70's"?


Sorry Grumpy, I hadn't seen your reply. Wink

Outside the obvious pioneer thing, I can understand that one may think TFK is better (consistent) than Genesis, not only on the length of their body of work (TFK and SB have a very focused on prog discography) and may have better individual virtuosi at their respective instrument (though beating P Collins on the stool ...), but their body of work is very derivative of the works of the pioneers, which in itself is a flaw. This is an even bigger trait in what one calls "retro-prog" - which is my favoured genre in modern prog, so I'm not condemning it.


Yes (the affirmation, not the band), the fact that the 90's bands with 25 year's hindsight & insight, they already knew they would remain within the "prog realm" for their entire career & discography (no matter fhow long it would've been). The 70's bands had no idea where they were heading 5 years down the line, so every new album was different to the previous one.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote someone_else Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2023 at 02:34
Aged 64, I jumped the Prog bandwagon in 1972, the year of Close to the Edge, Foxtrot and Thick as a Brick a.o. I have never been a regular gig frequenter (never seen Genesis performing), but the first two gigs I attended have been Pink Floyd (Animals tour, February 1977) and Yes (Going for the One tour, November 1977), both near the end of their heyday.
I don't feel sadness when I hear prog from that era at all and I am happy to conclude that the 2010's have been a great decade for the genre and the 2020's are doing fine so far.


Edited by someone_else - October 28 2023 at 02:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2023 at 02:52
Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

Aged 64, I jumped the Prog bandwagon in 1972, the year of Close to the Edge, Foxtrot and Thick as a Brick a.o. I have never been a regular gig frequenter (never seen Genesis performing), but the first two gigs I attended have been Pink Floyd (Animals tour, February 1977) and Yes (Going for the One tour, November 1977), both near the end of their heyday.
I don't feel sadness when I hear prog from that era at all and I am happy to conclude that the 2010's have been a great decade for the genre and the 2020's are doing fine so far.
I'm 64 too and I jumped on the prog bandwagon in 1973 with Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells - my first prog album (although I had no idea it was prog at the time). It took me another forty years and the birth of the Internet before I bought my first CD's by Caravan, ELP, Genesis, King Crimson, Jethro Tull, Pink Floyd and YES. Between first going online in 2010 and now, my CD collection went up from just 400 to 3,200 in the space of thirteen years. It's not easy finding prog albums in charity shops and car boot sales though. After rummaging through the usual dross of boy bands and Brit-Pop albums by Oasis and Blur, all I usually find prog-wise are eighties Genesis albums by the bucketload, which hardly anyone wants anyway. I had to think twice whether I really wanted to spend a whole pound on Invisible Touch recently. Tongue


Edited by Psychedelic Paul - October 28 2023 at 02:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2023 at 06:22
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Some people seem to resist the idea that prog was born in the UK. I remember not too long ago getting into a debate (or was it an argument) with a guy in a facebook prog group about what was the first prog album (or first prog band).

Hi,

I am not sure that this was true ... it's almost like saying that "progressive" didn't exist in America. 

There were many things that were "progressive", but we seem to be stuck on a set of bands that happen to be English, BUT MADE THEIR MONEY IN AMERICA! Which ought to specify the story a bit, but it's like saying the Fillmore was crap, and that LA and NY did not have a progressive groove. Or Italy! Or France! Or Japan! Or anywhere else!


Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Quote Seventies prog was very UK centric
It's a myth people blindly trust for some reason. Prog was born in the UK, but soon it spread onto other places, like the rest of Europe, the US, and later other countries where there were already strong rock music scenes, like, I dunno, Canada, Japan, Argentina and so on. And by 1979 prog was made all over the map, despite its decline in the UK.
...

Hardly a myth. The Big Six is recognised to be ELP, Yes, Genesis, ,Floyd, Tull and Crimson. There is a reaon for that. The other bands came later so 'progressive rock' in its purest form was set down by British bands....

I like to say that "prog" or "progressive" was born in America with the FM radio band, and it lived until the great American Corporate Rape that ended in 1980 or so, by which time all the INDEPENDENT radio stations that played those top 6 to the hilt, all became "classic" stations, or in the case of one station in LA, it became a New Age/Wave radio station and it was a number 1 station to give you the idea of the Rape and the Evil around it.

But, by 1980 these bands had brought in massive amounts of money and were given the "credit" for having started it all. They didn't start anything ... they were a part of it all! 

With the outlet of the FM Radio band playing everything and anything out there as an independent (in America ... FM Radio didn't jump as fast in England because the BBC stopped it as much, and as fast as possible. Read Dave Cousins' book on this ... !!!

But, because the huge sales and fame of the big six went down, it didn't mean the music died, or the movement died. By that time it had settled strongly everywhere else in the world, and it continued. For every sale that the big six lost, we gained Le Orme, Banco, Ange, Sadistic Mika Band, ECM stuff that is out of this world, and so many other bands that it was/is impossible to list them all and do them justice. 

... 'progressive rock' in its purest form ... is (in my book) a part of the problem, because the same thing was happening in America, and Italy, and France, and Japan, but was being ignored by the new radio format (which went on to only play the stuff that the main company released or had money in!!!!), and it continues to be ignored by these comments ... we are being ethnocentric again ... take the attitude of "master of the universe" kind of thing. 

When it comes to the arts, there is no such thing, but we have gotten so media minded that we think our media created the world and God while at it ... the rest of the world couldn't possibly have anything to add to the story, now, could it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote presdoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2023 at 09:09
And what a vibrant and progressive an environment it was in America before the "Corporate Rape" of the radio stations occurred!
              it was a totally different dynamic; the progressive rock "Big boys" were selling out massive arenas, and who would have imagined that an interest in Continental European rock would occurr there-at first with Kraftwerk and Triumvirat from Germany making waves in America, and PFM from Italy and Focus from Holland. 
           If I may say, that dynamic with Europe was most strikingly the case with Triumvirat, a group who were given nothing better than the middle finger from their German homeland, entered the Top 50 and consecutive Top 30 album charts in the USA, much to everyone's surprise. 
                         It was great until the "Corporate Rape" changed things so drastically in a fairly short time. 


Edited by presdoug - October 28 2023 at 09:10
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