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Roger Waters Time Redux |
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MikeEnRegalia 
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Online Points: 21149 |
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 Posted: October 04 2023 at 05:32 |
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How do we even know that this is the case? Through the evening news? Cannot trust them on matters of national importance. We know this is obviously true in Russia, but as history shows, it is true in the West as well. Has been in every major war that I can recall. |
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: October 04 2023 at 05:37 |
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No, the Western model is built on expansion in terms of economic markets. It's not a stable system, since Earth is finite every now and then it runs into the problem that the markets get saturated. Large military conflicts are a convenient solution to the problem, since they destroy so much infrastructure and wealth in the general population, restoring the growth potential.
Same here. There are quite a few musicians which I do not agree with on a number of topics, but I'll still listen to their music. As an example, I've never been religious, but Neal Morse is one of my most favorite musicians ever.
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Easy Money
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Posted: October 04 2023 at 05:37 |
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^ I don't own a TV and I don't care for TV news, but I certainly don't trust your opinion at all. Actually it could be said that you get your opinions from billionaire rock stars who live in modern day gilded castles.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: October 04 2023 at 05:45 |
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You should definitely not trust my opinion. Your assumption is wrong though - where in this thread have I indicated that I "get my opinion" from Roger Waters? You have no idea what my sources are. Here's one (of many) with a few more credentials. It is true though that none of us has any chance of really KNOWING what is going on in the world, it is all filtered through the sources we choose and the decisions we make on which pieces of information are trustworthy, and which are not.
Edited by MikeEnRegalia - October 04 2023 at 05:45 |
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Sean Trane
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Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20240 |
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Posted: October 04 2023 at 05:50 |
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Yeah, I don't trust our "own side" for theses infox (toxic info) cold-war propaganda. First, Ukraine is not to be trusted anymore than Russia for these announcements (it's just as rotten to the core), but we cannot allow ourselves to trust any NATO reports either. TBH, pre-Zelenski's Ukraine is just as much to blame for this war (even if it is the victim), as it was oppressing its Russian minority ever since 2008 (after the democratically-elected pro-russian president was ousted by force). The UN clearly states that a non-rogue country must protect its own minorities (that includes the Chechens, Wlado  ) and clearly the 2014 separation is a result of these exactions against the minority.NATO is just as toxic as the ex-USSR was (even if we're glad that NATO still exists), ever since the turn of the millennium. The worst part is that with the war it helped create (via its own expansion towards the East), NATO has now justified its own existence for the next decades to come. .
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: October 04 2023 at 06:06 |
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^ Yes. Our leaders, with the support of media, are doing their best to create the impression that NATO=good and Putin=evil. The idea that both might be evil doesn't even occur to most people. It's a fascinating social experiment. It's even more astounding considering the horrible people at the helm in the West. Does anyone think that Joe Biden is a nice person - or Justin Trudeau, or Olaf Scholz (Germany), or Trump? Yet we assume that they must have the noblest of motives when it comes to important geopolitical issues. We wouldn't leave them alone in a room with our children, yet if you criticise them publicly, you must be an evil, antisemite nazi conspiracy theorist idiot.
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Lewian
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Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14698 |
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Posted: October 04 2023 at 06:53 |
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^ Politics is not about being a nice person (are we?), and I'm very tired of the portrayal of people who are more worried about the Russian warmongers than the NATO these days as naive believers of mainstream media and sheep easily manipulated by American interests. Categories such as good and evil are extremely simplistic and even claiming that this is how the other side in a conversation thinks isn't getting anywhere near an interesting take on this. As long as this is your perception of the people you discuss with, these people have very very good reasons not to trust your perceptions of anything else. But then this is not the topic of this thread anyway and the thread about the war itself was closed for good reason...
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MikeEnRegalia
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Online Points: 21149 |
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Posted: October 04 2023 at 07:09 |
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^I was speaking in general terms, I specifically used the phrase "most people" to indicate that there are exceptions. It also works the other way round, I freely accept that I am probably wrong on many things as well.
In particular, calling people "sheep" is overly simplistic, I have NEVER done that. It's ok in novels and records (Animal Farm, Animals), but in reality people are much more clever than they're given credit for. But at the same time, governments are also using clever ways of tricking us. Ever heard of the term "nudging"? A clever euphemism in its own right. Think of that when you next hear the phrase "Putin's war" or "Putin's Invasion".
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Nogbad_The_Bad
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RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team Joined: March 16 2007 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 20844 |
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Posted: October 04 2023 at 07:17 |
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: October 04 2023 at 07:22 |
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Would surely be nice to be a famous reviewer for a magazine and receive all these advance copies
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progaardvark
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Posted: October 04 2023 at 09:21 |
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Let me rephrase that to "allegedly looking." It is curious that Sergei Shoigu went to North Korea and inspected North Korean missiles and later Kim Jong Un went to Russia and inspected bombers, hypersonic missiles, and warships. Perhaps nothing, perhaps just two leaders seeing how big their penises are. Beats me.
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i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
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Sean Trane
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Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20240 |
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Posted: October 04 2023 at 09:27 |
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Not sure Putin enjoys North Korea as a partner at all, but since he's being pushed (by us westerners), he's probably feeling compelled to at least to see what his direct neighbor (couple of hundreds of kms from Vladivostok) is doing with his army. The west pushed Russia into China's arms AFAIAC, and we (the' whole planet) will be sorry in the mid-future (the Artic route being rebuilt by China) .
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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Lewian
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Posted: October 04 2023 at 11:31 |
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^ Are you saying NATO should've told Putin "you can have Ukraine, fine by us"? Sure, it's all "the west"'s fault if Russia decides to invade Ukraine...
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Sean Trane
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Posted: October 04 2023 at 12:24 |
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^^^ If NATO hadn't advanced its pawn in Eastern Europe against Russia for almost three decades (90's to 20's), we wouldn't be facing this situation. We have systematically refused to hear Russia's fears & insecurities for 30 years and kept onwards in our "capitalo-military march" eastbound. Of course, Putin's aggression is unqualified and legitimates NATO's sordid & twisted expansion politics. Indeed, this legitimately pushed Sweden & Finland into our toxic arms and arms and harm. We've discussed this in PM before, not only about Ukraine, but also in EC's member Latvia's important Russian minorities, where 300 000 russianophones (15% of Latvia's population) are denied citizenship and therefore can't be counted along the other russianspeakers who have it (another 25% of the population)
Edited by Sean Trane - October 04 2023 at 12:29 |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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Psychedelic Paul
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Joined: September 16 2019 Location: Nottingham, U.K Status: Online Points: 40000 |
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Posted: October 04 2023 at 12:39 |
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Hey Grumpy! Your thread appears to have gone slightly off-topic through no fault of your own. Time to set the record straight..... I love Roger's redux version of Time, with only faint Echoes of the original version. One of These Days I may even go out and buy it, although they say a fool is easily parted with his Money.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: October 04 2023 at 13:48 |
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It's all black or white to you, isn't it? In reality it is Any Color You Like. Listen to the Mearsheimer talk I linked to above, he explains quite clearly why Putin never intended to "take" the Ukraine.
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Lewian
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Posted: October 04 2023 at 15:41 |
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^ You have no idea what I think and what I already know but thanks for your lessons. Let's leave it at that with the off topic.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: October 04 2023 at 16:19 |
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I know what you wrote, and it suggests a very binary view of the situation - it’s either completely Putin’s fault, or 100% the West. If I got that wrong, please do accept my apology. |
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richardh
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Posted: October 04 2023 at 16:41 |
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Putin was never forced into anything, the idea that he had no choice but to invade Ukraine is just plain daft. Its pretty clear he did it because he was lead to believe that it would be quick and easy and Ukraine would fold. However never understimate the power of patrotism and a feeling of duty to one's country. Up to a point it served Hitler well and similarly Putin has a lot of support as does Zelenski of course. The situation is incredibly dangerous and we've still not got to a point where Putin will eventually be defeated like Hitler was. Hitler didn't have nuclear weapons though and thank the god he didn't because none of us would be here now typing away.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: October 05 2023 at 01:38 |
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Who is putting forward that idea?
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progaardvark wrote: