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Roger Waters Time Redux

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2023 at 19:40
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

I think it is a tragic last gasp of a bitter old man trying desperately to rewrite his own history. Make no mistake, there is nothing "progressive" about this remake, and let's be honest, remakes are inherently diametrically opposed to any hint of progressiveness. Waters' failed attempt at continued relevance has proven how irrelevant he has become. 




Let me put it this way: With his touring and political activism he is much more relevant than David Gilmour, even if you don’t agree with any of his activities. 


I wasn't aware being a tw*t somehow translates to "political activism". David Gilmour? He is evidently far more comfortable being himself and aging gracefully -- he obviously has nothing to prove to anyone or himself. 

As for his activism, Gilmour auctioned off his entire guitar collection and donated the proceeds to charity ($21.5 million) just a few years ago, and in 2022 he reformed Pink Floyd to release "Hey Hey Rise Up' For support of the Ukraine. The single raised more than $600,000 for humanitarian aid. 

He's also not trying to rewrite Echoes or Wish You Were Here as death marches. He seems very happy being with family. You know, being a loving human, not a miserable old git. Here's a link to his charities...

https://www.davidgilmour.com/charity.htm




And before that, I remember him selling/donating a house he had, in London I think, for charity too... for homeless children I think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2023 at 20:17
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

How about this: He’a great at what he does, and you have disqualified yourself from the discussion.


Greatness is subjective. Greatness is also subject to time. Athletes, and most musicians, are only truly "great" for a specified time - an era. Roger Waters blew his wad on The Wall, and has never even remotely reached that height since. Objectively, any sort of "greatness" predates The Wall, back to truly splendid and important albums like Dark Side of the Moon and Wish You Were Here, but for all intents and purposes The Wall was the last album of note Roger Waters ever did. 

The vast group of listeners who bought and still buy Pink Floyd albums really couldn't care less about Waters' solo career. People still buy Pink Floyd t-shirts and paraphernalia, some of whom (like my daughter) have only a passing knowledge of Floyd's catalog, but they have t-shirts. No one buys Roger Waters for Roger Waters' solo output. And that obviously eats at him.

And so, almost tragically, Waters repeats The Wall tours over and over for decades, which is indicative of an aging man trying to repeat past glory. This sad Dark Side of the Moon remake is just another take of a disgruntled old man reliving the time when he was captain of the high school football team. When he was important. Perhaps even when he was considered "great".



I would consider Amused to Death also after The Wall. I think that was a brilliant album too. Besides that one, I find some songs from the rest of his albums to be great, but not them as a whole.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2023 at 02:58
Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:


And before that, I remember DG selling/donating a house he had, in London I think, for charity too... for homeless children I think.

Wonderful. However, donating to charities is not the same as political activism. But for the record, RW supports charities as well: https://www.looktothestars.org/celebrity/roger-waters
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2023 at 03:03
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

...word........At the end of the day, when both of these fine musicians leave this earth, I for one will miss David Gilmour the most. When you look at what both have done in the past 10-15yrs the catalog of creative music fully lies with Gilmour. What Roger has created pales in comparison and is 100% geared towards creating political divides, which has zero to do with creating music.
The question is who has glowed more in the last chapter of their life as a musician and how will they be remembered?
So sad to be Roger Waters.....and I am sure he will care soon enough.

What is your favorite DG album of the past 10-15 years? I'd like to check it out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Stressed Cheese Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2023 at 03:10
It's a bit naive to think that RW's comments on Ukraine have anything to do with people disliking this. Don't get me wrong - I'm sure it doesn't help. But the whole idea of doing this in the first place, the fact that he's doing this as a middle finger to the other 3 members (which is probably enough to turn most people off), and the simply dreadful end result is enough to ensure it would've gotten the same negative reception no matter RW's personal beliefs. If anything, the fact that one of the few people here who seems to support RW's views is also one of the few who who doesn't think this is complete garbage is more suspect.

It's simply bad music made for a bad reason.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2023 at 03:11
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Greatness is subjective. Greatness is also subject to time. Athletes, and most musicians, are only truly "great" for a specified time - an era. Roger Waters blew his wad on The Wall, and has never even remotely reached that height since. Objectively, any sort of "greatness" predates The Wall, back to truly splendid and important albums like Dark Side of the Moon and Wish You Were Here, but for all intents and purposes The Wall was the last album of note Roger Waters ever did. 

The vast group of listeners who bought and still buy Pink Floyd albums really couldn't care less about Waters' solo career. People still buy Pink Floyd t-shirts and paraphernalia, some of whom (like my daughter) have only a passing knowledge of Floyd's catalog, but they have t-shirts. No one buys Roger Waters for Roger Waters' solo output. And that obviously eats at him.

And so, almost tragically, Waters repeats The Wall tours over and over for decades, which is indicative of an aging man trying to repeat past glory. This sad Dark Side of the Moon remake is just another take of a disgruntled old man reliving the time when he was captain of the high school football team. When he was important. Perhaps even when he was considered "great".


Wow. Question to you: Is your daughter into PF because of the Gilmour solos, or because of the powerful message conveyed by tracks like Money, or albums like Animals and The Wall? Or does she prefer Ummagumma or Atom Heart Mother?

The reason Roger Waters is relying so heavily on these tracks and albums, combined with his solo releases, on his tours to this day, is precisely because that is the essence of Pink Floyd that most people remember, and it is he, not Gilmour, Mason or Wright, who have been carrying this message forward after they split. DG is pure esoteric bullcrap on his own.


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - August 29 2023 at 03:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2023 at 04:14
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

DG is pure esoteric bullcrap on his own.

That's harsh.
I enjoy Gilmour's first two albums more than Waters ever did solo. Only Amused to Death comes close (even here he's got a couple of weak songs). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2023 at 04:54
^ Granted, maybe I was reflecting some of the harshness directed towards RW here - plus I've listened to Metallic Spheres again today, which IS esoteric bullcrap IMHO. LOL

Will listen to the DG solo albums later today. You have to give everyone a fair chance ...


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - August 29 2023 at 04:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Hector Enrique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2023 at 14:14
Is it really necessary to look for more feet for the cat than it already has? I don't think so. Waters clings to the band's glorious past and tries to reinvent it absurdly, in my opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Automated Hero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2023 at 05:43
Like the man himself this is repellent turgid and lacking in ideas. 

He's a vile little man, conspiracy peddler and apologist for Russia. What a miserable load of sh*t this is
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2023 at 06:47
^ Can you give an example of an incorrect statement he made about Russia? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2023 at 08:28
Bless the sycophant protecting his billionaire master.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Automated Hero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2023 at 08:57
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ Can you give an example of an incorrect statement he made about Russia? 
Sure, he takes the ridiculous position that NATO provoked Putin and has appeared on his behalf before the UN. 

Just the sort of thing anyone who supports the rights of the Ukrainian people to live lives free from bombs and guns does
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2023 at 15:46
^ Did NATO not agree not to expand eastward after the cold war had ended, only to do so anyway? AFAIK that's just a fact. If you had actually listened to RWs speech before the UN you would know that he condemns the invasion and hardly comes across as acting "on behalf of Putin". 

The ugly truth about the war is that powerful people in the West are profiting from it. It will continue as long as they please, and since Russia is also benefiting, they see no reason to end it either. That leaves "normal" people all over the world to pay the price, with the Ukrainians at the forefront.



Edited by MikeEnRegalia - October 03 2023 at 15:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2023 at 18:02
Love Roger Waters. I’ll be buying his Darkside of the Moon redux and his lockdown sessions album as well this month. The guy is awesome and he is 80 years old. Amazing longevity this man has. Most men these days are burnt out at 50. Hard not to respect him. Yes. He’s a hard man in some ways, but this day and age you have to be. He doesn’t fall in with the sheeple herd. Quite frankly, neither do I.
Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2023 at 18:20
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ Did NATO not agree not to expand eastward after the cold war had ended, only to do so anyway? AFAIK that's just a fact. If you had actually listened to RWs speech before the UN you would know that he condemns the invasion and hardly comes across as acting "on behalf of Putin". 

The ugly truth about the war is that powerful people in the West are profiting from it. It will continue as long as they please, and since Russia is also benefiting, they see no reason to end it either. That leaves "normal" people all over the world to pay the price, with the Ukrainians at the forefront.

I'm not sure I understand your comment that..."The ugly truth about the war is that powerful people in the West are profiting from it"....Who are these powerful people?
A simple google search says the US has sent over USD75billion in aide to Ukraine, I also read the European union has provided more funds than that. Russia has spent equivalent of about USD55.4 billion on the war, I also read. Not sure what all this means but who in the west is making money off the war? 
I would have to think Russia is secretly wishing the war would end so they don't go into bankruptcy.....but then you have China, probably helping fund Russia as well providing weapons and tech for the war. China will keep Russia afloat after the war is over is my guess.

I don't know.........still don't know who in the west is making money off the war.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2023 at 19:01
^ He is referring to arms manufacturers and their stock holders and investors, but yes, overall the general population in every country is losing money, especially Ukraine.

Edited by Easy Money - October 03 2023 at 19:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2023 at 01:24
^ Yes, but it is not only the investors in the military industry who are making money off a war - it's also those who pick up companies and land dirt-cheap in the razed countries only to profit massively from the money sent there as humanitarian aid. Then there's also the Nordstream coup which has boosted profits from US liquid gas sales, not to mention the money made from investing in "green" energy there and all over Europe, as we move away from "dirty" (and cheap) Russian gas. 

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

the US has sent over USD75billion in aide to Ukraine

What does that actually mean? Who paid something here, and to whom? Is this really a transfer from wealthy people in the west to poor people in the Ukraine? No, of course not. Here's what happens: The US government borrows the money ($ 75B) and sends it to the Ukrainian government. They distribute it as they see fit, meaning that most of it ends up with the oligarchs. Remember that Ukraine is still one of the most corrupt states in Europe (only topped by Moldavia). These oligarchs probably keep some of the money for themselves, some is put into humanitarian aid (to keep up appearances), but a lot of the money eventually flows back to the same investors that the US borrowed the money from in the first place.

It's a great racket - as Easy Money put it, the "general population" in every country is losing money, getting poorer, making sacrifices, while the rich and powerful are getting more rich and powerful.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2023 at 03:33
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

I would have to think Russia is secretly wishing the war would end so they don't go into bankruptcy.....but then you have China, probably helping fund Russia as well providing weapons and tech for the war. China will keep Russia afloat after the war is over is my guess.

I can understand the reasoning behind this, but I think China has bigger problems of their own. The biggest one is an inevitable demographic collapse from their one-child policy. Some have argued that this is already happening and the limited data coming out of China is hiding this. Inevitably this is going to lead to an economic collapse that's going to have repercussions throughout the world for countries that rely on specific resources from China. The U.S.'s move away from globalization is a move in the right direction, but it's coming too late. Further, Xi Jinping has pretty much eliminated any political competition he might have within China, has surrounded himself by "yes men," and has consolidated his power. It doesn't seem like he understands the seriousness of the situation and this is a bad time for a country to have a leader like this. 

Russia is also in the middle of a demographic crisis, though not as severe as what China is or will experience, but this war is exasperating Russia's problems. Who would have ever imagined Russia looking to North Korea for weapons?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2023 at 04:44
NATO was expanded because countries in middle/eastern Europe wanted to join, and Jelzin's Russia was fine with that. I know enough people from former Warsaw Pact states to know that these were not pushed against their will into NATO by the Americans.
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the "general population" in every country is losing money, getting poorer, making sacrifices, while the rich and powerful are getting more rich and powerful.
This can be said (and actually is said) about pretty much everything that happens in world politics, and we have ample proof that it can surely be achieved without this war.

Anyway, I don't agree with Waters on this one but I tend to listen to musicians as far as I enjoy the music and to not have that too tarnished by some controversial views that they hold.


Edited by Lewian - October 04 2023 at 04:59
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