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How to define and classify "Progressive Rock"?
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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Hugh Manatee Hugh Manatee wrote:

Prog is a hungry beast that cannot be caged. Let it run wild and free I say, devouring all other music until it gives birth to a legion of sub-genres.

That seems rather objectivistic to me, while I've seen you more on the subjective wagon Wink

- but an impressive picture of Tarkus, made by whom?
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Originally posted by enigmatic enigmatic wrote:

...Electronic prog doesn't exist. It's simply called electronic music....

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

I agree with the idea of Electronic Prog not existing, and it should be merely called "Electronic Music".


I disagree. Consider EDM (Electronic Dance Music) like Techno or House or Trance. They are electronic music, but far different stylistically from Tangerine Dream, Klaus Schulze, Jean Michel Jarre, ARC, Radio Massacre International, and many others. There IS a progressive aspect to electronic music, just like there is a progressive aspect to rock music.
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At this point of time, I'm most into that RYM's definition of Progressive Rock and their use of it (labeling) are the most authoritative ones.
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

At this point of time, I'm most into that RYM's definition of Progressive Rock and their use of it (labeling) are the most authoritative ones.

So what's wrong with PA's definition? Confused LOL
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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

At this point of time, I'm most into that RYM's definition of Progressive Rock and their use of it (labeling) are the most authoritative ones.
So what's wrong with PA's definition? Confused LOL

As I see it, PA is today more about Progressive Music than Progressive Rock.
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

At this point of time, I'm most into that RYM's definition of Progressive Rock and their use of it (labeling) are the most authoritative ones.
So what's wrong with PA's definition? Confused LOL

As I see it, PA is today more about Progressive Music than Progressive Rock.


have you read the PA definition, genre presentations and so on? 
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

As I see it, PA is today more about Progressive Music than Progressive Rock.

I don't think so. 80 % of PA genres are prog rock. 20 % are other prog music that might also be of interest to many prog rock listeners.

Of this 20 % other prog genres two belong to metal that is very closely related to rock music and one is progressive electronic that is closely tied to progressive rock.
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Originally posted by terramystic terramystic wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

As I see it, PA is today more about Progressive Music than Progressive Rock.

I don't think so. 80 % of PA genres are prog rock. 20 % are other prog music that might also be of interest to many prog rock listeners.

Of this 20 % other prog genres two belong to metal that is very closely related to rock music and one is progressive electronic that is closely tied to progressive rock.

Hi,

I would agree here. Not to say that PA does not have its good points, but in the end, there is other progressive music that is not "Rock" but show just as good attention to "progressive" details as anything else, but they lack the LOUDNESS and the FORMAT that both PA and others have decided make "progressive" important, which is a bit bizarre in my book, since the idea at the start was to create something that was against the "pop" side of things, and things that "tripped" way out ... something that pop music does not do, unless it uses some way out lyrics to make us "believe" that it is trippy or psychedelic, when it is neither.

Progressive Electronic is something else ... because its definition is not clear, and it is also not on par with "music" and its definition. For the most part, the two big examples are Klaus Schulze and Tangerine Dream (not after EF!!!), whose music was extended to an incredible degree, and had much more in common with classical traditions than they did "progressive" of any kind ... but since the folks that defined "progressive rock" or "progressive music" do not listen to anything else, they think that a misguided title is better than nothing to detail anyone's music. TD, for example, almost fits in an area called "progressive movie", since so much of their music (all with EF) had a nice context and sort of story to tell, which most "progressive rock" music does not have, and instead is relying on LYRICS to tell us that something is true or happening ... nothing like false idols and cheap stories to convince us of nothing!

IF, we want to improve this discussion and ideas, we have to come together and agree on a better, and more descriptive material for what "progressive" anything is ... and a guitar solo, or a blue guitar, or a transition, is not enough ... since all music has included that for hundreds of years ... which tells you that MUSIC LISTENING is not something that is worked with for many of those folks ... all they know is a few songs and the hits!

To do work with "progressive" you can not be looking for, or at, hits ... you have to develop your inner sense to listen to the music, not just the fake lyrics and formats!
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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

At this point of time, I'm most into that RYM's definition of Progressive Rock and their use of it (labeling) are the most authoritative ones.

Why do I think so? Well, not least because RYM today is definitely the most used site, also when talking about Progressive Rock alone, and PA being only a much smaller brother which can for instance be illustrated by something I've written in another thread:

"If want to compare PA with RYM with regard to numbers of Prog ratings in general, 156 albums have got at least 1000 ratings on PA, 
while the same amounts to about 600 albums for RYM's "Progressive Rock" and "Progressive Metal" alone which stylistically seen 
is a much narrower perspective than all the albums included on PA.



Edited by David_D - September 27 2023 at 08:48
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

...
"If want to compare PA with RYM with regard to numbers of Prog ratings in general, 156 albums have got at least 1000 ratings on PA, 
while the same amounts to about 600 albums for RYM's "Progressive Rock" and "Progressive Metal" alone which stylistically seen 
is a much narrower perspective than all the albums included on PA.
...

Hi,

The sad thing here is you talking about the NUMBERS as if they mattered more than the reality ... THE MUSIC.

Obviously you are not interested in the music, and your tastes has to go with the mass of folks and the more "conditioned" side of the popular ideas about music. The only issue I have with RYM's system is that there are at least 30%, maybe more bands that are simply the bedroom variety ... and while I am not stuckup enough to say that no one can do that, the main reason for using the term is that a lot of the music is added, STRICTLY by the sound and its FORMAT ... but you won't see that.

PROGRESSIVE came from experimentation and new ideas, along with an artist side at the time ... today, all you have is the numbers ... which shows how little respect music is getting ... since you can only vote for numbers ... and more numbers ... as if they were the best ... they are the BEST NOTHING there is ... and their "ratings" are a huge mess, and makes it even more difficult to look at a band and their work.

I doubt that you can see that since you only look at numbers ... you refuse to look at the music itself, and PA's style of adding more bands to the database. It isn't perfect, but it is certainly a bit more selective and on par with the ideas of "PROGRESSIVE" ... than RYM will ever be!

And ... I think the RYM forums would give more attention for the nothing you state all the time! Wink
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

...
"If want to compare PA with RYM with regard to numbers of Prog ratings in general, 156 albums have got at least 1000 ratings on PA, 
while the same amounts to about 600 albums for RYM's "Progressive Rock" and "Progressive Metal" alone which stylistically seen 
is a much narrower perspective than all the albums included on PA.
...

Hi,

The sad thing here is you talking about the NUMBERS as if they mattered more than the reality ... THE MUSIC.

Obviously you are not interested in the music, and your tastes has to go with the mass of folks and the more "conditioned" side of the popular ideas about music. The only issue I have with RYM's system is that there are at least 30%, maybe more bands that are simply the bedroom variety ... and while I am not stuckup enough to say that no one can do that, the main reason for using the term is that a lot of the music is added, STRICTLY by the sound and its FORMAT ... but you won't see that.

PROGRESSIVE came from experimentation and new ideas, along with an artist side at the time ... today, all you have is the numbers ... which shows how little respect music is getting ... since you can only vote for numbers ... and more numbers ... as if they were the best ... they are the BEST NOTHING there is ... and their "ratings" are a huge mess, and makes it even more difficult to look at a band and their work.

I doubt that you can see that since you only look at numbers ... you refuse to look at the music itself, and PA's style of adding more bands to the database. It isn't perfect, but it is certainly a bit more selective and on par with the ideas of "PROGRESSIVE" ... than RYM will ever be!

And ... I think the RYM forums would give more attention for the nothing you state all the time! Wink

As usual missing the point. He's just saying that RYM has more traffic and more ratings if you want to look at that as being important.

Personally I think PA lost it way when a lot of 'Prog related' stuff made its way to the site. I would like more actual prog to be promoted here , I don't need yet another 2 star review of Queen's Jazz for instance, the point of which escapes me. We could also have selective discographies but I realise just how subjective that is. With Queen they seemingly are only relevant to the prog scene for the first 5 albums and even that link has always felt a bit tenuous in my mind. (sorry an old gripe of mine lol)
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^ Judging by how little attention my recent list of 200 potential additional prog releases of 2023 has received, I would say that most users couldn't care less about "actual prog". They're here for the discussions and because it is the most popular "prog-only" music website on the planet. As Al Pacino's character put it in Devil's Advocate: "Vanity - definitely my favorite sin!".
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

"If want to compare PA with RYM with regard to numbers of Prog ratings in general, 156 albums have got at least 1000 ratings on PA, 
while the same amounts to about 600 albums for RYM's "Progressive Rock" and "Progressive Metal" alone which stylistically seen 
is a much narrower perspective than all the albums included on PA.
...

Hi,

The sad thing here is you talking about the NUMBERS as if they mattered more than the reality ...

<snip>

As usual missing the point. He's just saying that RYM has more traffic and more ratings if you want to look at that as being important.


No, Pedro is not missing the point, he is hitting the nail on his head: David claims that RYM's definition of progressive rock is more authoritative because it has a larger user base than PA. This is a rather absurd - if not dangerous - way of reasoning, as if statistics could procure authority. Tools (statistics)/numbers have no and procure no authority, it is the one who uses or abuses them who might have that authority (I personally consider the Encyclopedia Britannica more authoritative than Wikipedia because it is written by experts and not by "everybody").

It is also fallacious, because RYM and PA have been built upon different grounds: the first a general music database where progressive rock is just a sub-genre like many other genres, where the second takes this sub-genre as the main category and starts its reasoning regarding sub-genres from there (and including sub-genres that elsewhere wouldn't be considered prog). This, of course is a very different entry point into considering music under that specific umbrella.

David has made it his obsession to hammer his disagreement with PA's basic principle of considering and defining the category of "progressive rock" into every thread where he finds an opportunity. This particular thread is a nice play ground for him, so it would be nice if he could keep his musings about definitions here instead of polluting other threads with it.

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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

No, Pedro is not missing the point, he is hitting the nail on his head: David claims that RYM's definition of progressive rock is more authoritative because it has a larger user base than PA. This is a rather absurd - if not dangerous - way of reasoning, as if statistics could procure authority. Tools (statistics)/numbers have no and procure no authority, it is the one who uses or abuses them who might have that authority (I personally consider the Encyclopedia Britannica more authoritative than Wikipedia because it is written by experts and not by "everybody").

It is also fallacious, because RYM and PA have been built upon different grounds: the first a general music database where progressive rock is just a sub-genre like many other genres, where the second takes this sub-genre as the main category and starts its reasoning regarding sub-genres from there (and including sub-genres that elsewhere wouldn't be considered prog). This, of course is a very different entry point into considering music under that specific umbrella.

David has made it his obsession to hammer his disagreement with PA's basic principle of considering and defining the category of "progressive rock" into every thread where he finds an opportunity. This particular thread is a nice play ground for him, so it would be nice if he could keep his musings about definitions here instead of polluting other threads with it.

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Edited by Cristi - September 28 2023 at 05:20
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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

David has made it his obsession to hammer his disagreement with PA's basic principle of considering and defining the category of "progressive rock" into every thread where he finds an opportunity. This particular thread is a nice play ground for him, so it would be nice if he could keep his musings about definitions here instead of polluting other threads with it.
For the sake of fairness...

The entity you defend is an obnoxiously obsessive being who has been polluting a myriad of threads on this forum for a very long time.

Snakily bellitling every opinion/stance "it" disagrees with, by commencing its twaddles with either, "I'm not sure if...", or, "It's sad that...", "Sadly, some folks think that..." etc.

Also, let's not forget about how things are about MUSIC, not songs... and countless twaddles like that, which are repeated by that critter at every opportunity.
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^ Hehe. Not sure if it is about fairness and Pedro has his obsessions too, but sometimes he also says some sensible things, as does David, BTW...

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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

^ Hehe. Not sure if it is about fairness and Pedro has his obsessions too, but sometimes he also says some sensible things, as does David, BTW...

Yeah. With the help of my post, it now becomes fair. Wink
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A term, and not least in the world of art and music, will usually be defined and used in different ways. When considering which 
definition to find the most important and influential, you have not least to look at which one is most used. That's at least 
the typical logic of historians.

Anyway, considering the much growing of numbers of Progressive Rock ratings on RYM which shows to me much interest for 
the genre, and the site's definition of the genre, I feel now definitely more at ease on behalf of Progressive Rock.



Edited by David_D - September 28 2023 at 08:07
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Sorry, my obsession is probably to counter fallacies in reasoning, and I will probably come over as arrogant - which I probably am -, but let's play...

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

A term, and not least in the world of art and music, will usually be defined and used in different ways.
That's a platitude. Which is OK, but it is not saying anything, other than going counter to your obstination to privilege the RYM definition of Prog while dismissing PA's definition...

Quote When considering which definition to find the most important and influential, you have not least to look at which one is most used. That's at least the typical logic of historians.
More than once I had the impression that you made statements in domains you clearly don't master. One of them is philosophy and now historiography. You clearly don't know anything about the "logic" of historians. Even in the natural sciences your statement might be much disputed, but I don't think there will be many historians adopting your populist ideology (because that's what it comes down to). It definitely is not the popularity of definitions that move forward the human sciences, but more their efficiency. In historiography there can be very specific definitions that are not used by many others but that still help us to better understand specific (historical) phenomena. Again, it is not about the popularity of a definition, it is about its efficiency and pertinence in order to better understand (and explain) what happened or what a phenomenon is about. And especially when we want to cut back (historical) phenomena to just one popular definition we will be doing a lot of injustice to both history and historiography.

Quote Anyway, considering the much growing of numbers of Progressive Rock ratings on RYM which shows to me much interest for the genre, and the site's definition of the genre, I feel now definitely more at ease on behalf of Progressive Rock.
So now you're talking "on behalf" of Progressive Rock? But apart from that, it is another fallacy to think that from the number of RYM users you could conclude anything about the popularity of the definition of Progressive Rock RYM is giving - I don't think that the RYM users registered because of RYM's definition of Progressive Rock, let alone voted for it (or against it). Your extrapolations are creating realities that don't exist.

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