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moshkito View Drop Down
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    Posted: September 17 2023 at 09:35
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

... It's completely normal. While you are not, I suppose. 
...
 
Hi,

If I was normal, like many others, we wouldn't have a "progressive" board at all! Or "progressive" anything!

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

...
If I wanted someone to start appreciating painting or classical music - much as I love them - I wouldn't start by introducing them to Mondrian or Schoenberg. It's just common sense to me.

Based on my experience, it doesn't matter what we choose since the tastes vary so much and folks get slapped with some sounds or music, that somehow they can relate to, and end up liking. The only bother, I suppose was the bunch of stonies that asked for Led Zeppelin, man ... and they had the album on top of it! That's stoned, for sure, and not about the music I don't think!

I got used to sound effects with The Goons, and later hearing Guy have fun with them (all those BBC sound effects records got their due in a 1000 speeds) ... made it easier to hear a lot of stuff that was weird and off the track ... it was harder, for example, for me to get into Tangerine Dream (took a week!!!) than it did to listen to Faust, which in my book was a lot of fun, and the same with Frank Zappa being so anti-commercial (very obvious on his satirical stuff in 200 Motels and other works) ... and the different folks that still listen to Guy's show, per chat on the twitch thing ... makes you wonder what got them into it.

I really think that there is no telling what is going to snap someone's ears on ... it just happens for many, though one could say psychologically that it is because of this and that ... and I'm not even sure of that anymore. 

Nowadays, it is much harder I think since a lot of folks are so commercially bound that they are having a hard time hearing anything else, and that would be the same thing with the examples of the music. I, for one, loved Stravinsky the first time I heard it ... Leonard Bernstein doing The Rite of Spring ... I think that album is either 1963 or 1964, to give you an idea ... and at that time I mostly liked Puccini, Verdi, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky and such. Stuff that you could say was more melodic, which made The Rite of Spring completely anti-melodic (so to speak!).

Frank Zappa is a variety shop, which makes things tougher for a lot of listeners, thus one likes this album, but hates 200 Motels, or one likes the early and weird stuff because so much of the rest is more attuned for a little sales, so he could keep doing things, but that did not explain his forays into Europe to do classical music, which America hated and would not touch ... and other than one or two folks no one listens to it one could state.


Edited by moshkito - September 17 2023 at 09:38
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by UMUR UMUR wrote:

Iīd pick some of his most accessible releases (thatīs how I got into Zappa). Not many people are ready to hear and understand some of the more challenging stuff at first listen:
...

Hi,

This is strange to me ... having had the experience with Space Pirate Radio going back to its start in 1974, there are/were two kinds of folks in the listenership ... those who like to listen to things, and those that are brainwashed by the hits they like
Well, news flash: There's more than two kinds of folks! Some are just unexperienced or very young - as we've all once been. I mean I loved David Caspar Friedrich the first time a saw it and Beethoven the first time I heard it. Schoenberg and Mondrian took a little longer. A few more years of experience, knowledge and getting used to what felt like a "foreign language". It's completely normal. While you are not, I suppose. If I wanted someone to start appreciating painting or classical music - much as I love them - I wouldn't start by introducing them to Mondrian or Schoenberg. It's just common sense to me.
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Originally posted by UMUR UMUR wrote:

Iīd pick some of his most accessible releases (thatīs how I got into Zappa). Not many people are ready to hear and understand some of the more challenging stuff at first listen:
...

Hi,

This is strange to me ... having had the experience with Space Pirate Radio going back to its start in 1974, there are/were two kinds of folks in the listenership ... those who like to listen to things, and those that are brainwashed by the hits they like, or as you see on the street and in many cars, loud rap ... or around here, lots of Spanish speaking salsa and tortillas!

And, at times, it seems to not be anything in between. 

Given Guy's history with his show, the only folks that "didn't get it" or "didn't like it" were the folks that tried to convert Guy to another automaton playing all the hits and nothing but the hits. They treated him like dirt for a long time, because of his choices of music, and in the end, he added MORE to their play list than they will EVER admit. 

Guessing/expecting any friend to feel this or like this or that, is weird ... the best, and only thing you can do is play what you like and not worry about your friend. In the end, he/she will either come around and understand/appreciate new stuff or they want ... but I have to tell you that chatting and saying hello to folks that have heard a lot of Space Pirate Radio going back to 1974 is a treat and then some ... we weren't the only ones, that loved the new music!

You kinda have to let music just flow on its own ... and new folks will pick up on different things or they want ... and probably go back to the boomboom style! oh well ... maybe one day they will "get it" and learn something about themselves and other music out there in the stratosfear of their minds! 
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Iīd pick some of his most accessible releases (thatīs how I got into Zappa). Not many people are ready to hear and understand some of the more challenging stuff at first listen:

"Weīre Only in it for the Money"
"Overnight Sensation"
"Apostrophe"
"One Size Fits All"
"Sheik Yerbouti"

If my friend fanzy those releases, we can move on to some of the more challenging releases.
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Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

...
Also, the original Mothers era also incorporate dated jokes, and he was still writing weird, complicated compositions with horns. I would argue that, despite how Frank would incorporate so many different styles and sounds as his career progressed, one thing that remained consistent was the mixture of the accessible with the inaccessible....

Hi,

The term you want is "anti-commercial", which is very obvious by his many satires on many products and also on a lot of things on the TV airwaves in Southern California. 

TODAY, a lot of this stuff is not "accessible" because no one takes a look at history to help make sense of so much music the world over ... SF "happened" because the local free form FM radio was THE THING back then with a couple of DJ's helping a lot of new material not only get on the air, but also get concerts in various places. Today, a Party at the G. G. Park, could not even get started and the police would think that the new homeless group has arrived ... again!

This is the hard side of studying "progressive" and a lot of musical events and scenes, going back hundreds of years ... none of it makes sense ... until you also explain, and help get a kid's attention to the different possibilities ... though in this case someone at school with a woke mentality would say you are subverting the kid with bad ideas! The same mentality/media that killed all the "psychedelic" generation!

I think, and I try here ... hard ... to explain that some of the critiques in many of the comments here are inappropriate and sad ... they take the music out of context. Beethoven, Tchaikovsky and many other artists make a lot more sense when they are viewed as the "ROMANTIC" artists ... just like Shakespeare and Marlowe and others are considered "RENAISSANCE" artists. This, would IMMEDIATELY help the youngster realize that things were different then ... that what they are hearing is NOT something that would likely be heard today ... specially with the "de-sanctified" group deciding that the content is not right for any teenagers in the state of fluoride, like it was for a general that ordered the bomb sent! (fun movie with Slim Pickens riding the bomb!)
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^The fusiony ones would be some of the ones I WOULD recommend early on. It's the first few that usually don't play as well with the people to whom I show them. And that's how it was for me at first. For example, I gravitated towards the Turtles version of Dog Breath long before I realized I could handle the Uncle Meat take. Originally, the production bothered me, and I didn't like the pitched up vocals and horns. But now I like it. 

For the uninitiated crowd that I've dealt with, that tends to be the case. Granted these were younger people. You talked about "lasting popularity," but that doesn't mean that people who weren't alive when it released are going to connect with it as much as those who were around then and still prefer that era. And I know there's a sizable crowd that do.

Also, the original Mothers era also incorporate dated jokes, and he was still writing weird, complicated compositions with horns. I would argue that, despite how Frank would incorporate so many different styles and sounds as his career progressed, one thing that remained consistent was the mixture of the accessible with the inaccessible. At least in terms of the composition. Some people will just never jive with most of the lyrics he writes. I'd say only his orchestral and synclavier albums are completely uncompromising in their density.


Edited by Awesoreno - September 13 2023 at 23:29
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^ Yes sure. It might not have worked out like I hoped. I mean I would have commented on a few things beforehand, but like Revolution no. 9 I doubt that The Return of the Son of Monster Magnet would ruin the full experience. I would also reccomend they went on about it chronologically, starting with the oldest reccomendation first. To warm them up so to speak. But I definitely wouldn't stay clear of fusion just because it isn't everyone's cup of tea (and Hot Rats is probably the natural fusion-classic pick). What would be the point of the introduction then? For me that's Zappa's main attraction.
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Zappastolethetowels Zappastolethetowels wrote:

Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

^I think the 60s stuff stands out more as "annoying" to some because of the difference in production. Play the album version of Pound For a Brown, and then play a later live version, and ask a friend which one they'd rather not turn off immediately. All the pitched up wind instruments and vocals from the mid-late 60s era really get under many folks' skin.

I think you bring a good point! 

Not a particulary good point. Some of Zappa/Mother's 60's stuff's lasting popularity obviously tells another story. You are all proggers and don't really understand how complex brassy jazzrock-fusion with dated jokes rub A LOT of people the wrong way. I'm quite certain that both Freak Out! and Hot Rats are the two of the easiest first encounter/introduction for the majority of clueless friends.
Hey, both the 60s and 80s eras can serve as entry points to different people. 

I think Freak Out is a great starting point for Zappa if you ignore side 4 of the vinyl, so there's that. 
I would introduce Hot Rats only if the person is already somewhat versed in jazz-fusiony music and extended instrumental jams. The album is 6 songs and most go over the 6 minute mark. 
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^ I strongly believe in introducing artists to others. Just as much as I know I've been introduced to some of my favorite artist over the years. We all have to do the listening ourselves anyway, so I see no difference in "finding it myself" - or listening to something based on a reccomendation. If I enjoy what I hear I will obviously listen more and dig deeper. Reccomendations can also go wrong. If my introduction to Zappa was Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar I-III I might never have gotten to Waka/Jawaka.
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Zappastolethetowels Zappastolethetowels wrote:

Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

^I think the 60s stuff stands out more as "annoying" to some because of the difference in production. Play the album version of Pound For a Brown, and then play a later live version, and ask a friend which one they'd rather not turn off immediately. All the pitched up wind instruments and vocals from the mid-late 60s era really get under many folks' skin.

I think you bring a good point! 

Not a particulary good point. Some of Zappa/Mother's 60's stuff's lasting popularity obviously tells another story. You are all proggers and don't really understand how complex brassy jazzrock-fusion with dated jokes rub A LOT of people the wrong way. I'm quite certain that both Freak Out! and Hot Rats are the two of the easiest first encounter/introduction for the majority of clueless friends.

Hi,

I would add that at the time, the ability , talent ... and ABOVE ALL ... DESIRE ... to do something different that was not marked, controlled and defined by how "music" and its myriad of mathematical concepts were in control of the art. The 20th century has been one for the experimentation, changes and very different things in the arts, music likely being the most visible of all due to the incredible rate that radio, then commercialization brought music to the front via rock and jazz music.

Some of the younger generation is not going to enjoy and appreciate a lot of things, and 200 MOTELS is a perfect example, that a lot of folks hate because it's so all over the place, and folks don't even realize how ANTI-COMMERCIAL the whole thing is, and the point that it makes, with a lot of fun, weird, and bizarre jokes. 

I'm not sure that you, or I ... can convince anyone of anything ... it reeks of something else. Folks ... and you all know this well ... need to FIND things on their own way, so they can figure out who they are and what they are. 
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Originally posted by Zappastolethetowels Zappastolethetowels wrote:

Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

^I think the 60s stuff stands out more as "annoying" to some because of the difference in production. Play the album version of Pound For a Brown, and then play a later live version, and ask a friend which one they'd rather not turn off immediately. All the pitched up wind instruments and vocals from the mid-late 60s era really get under many folks' skin.

I think you bring a good point! 

Not a particulary good point. Some of Zappa/Mother's 60's stuff's lasting popularity obviously tells another story. You are all proggers and don't really understand how complex brassy jazzrock-fusion with dated jokes rub A LOT of people the wrong way. I'm quite certain that both Freak Out! and Hot Rats are the two of the easiest first encounter/introduction for the majority of clueless friends.
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Hi,

OVERNIGHT SENSATION is the one album that is "easiest" to play for your friend. The whole album was put together with the idea of it breaking into the FM radio that was playing so much FZ already, and of course, the album became a massive hit, with many of the pieces that we can still hum to or easily flip a lyric or two.

But, in many ways OS is not exactly what FZ was about ... which was way more than just a few rock songs fit to be tied neatly on the radio lists at the time!
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Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

^I think the 60s stuff stands out more as "annoying" to some because of the difference in production. Play the album version of Pound For a Brown, and then play a later live version, and ask a friend which one they'd rather not turn off immediately. All the pitched up wind instruments and vocals from the mid-late 60s era really get under many folks' skin.

I think you bring a good point! 

Which 5 would you play for a newbie to get the 'best' reaction from them (best is subjective here)? 

I used to play as much Zappa as I can to my grandpa for the best reactions haha LOL
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^I think the 60s stuff stands out more as "annoying" to some because of the difference in production. Play the album version of Pound For a Brown, and then play a later live version, and ask a friend which one they'd rather not turn off immediately. All the pitched up wind instruments and vocals from the mid-late 60s era really get under many folks' skin.
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Originally posted by Zappastolethetowels Zappastolethetowels wrote:

Wha?? I thought that aspect is what captures the attention and praise of somebody unfamiliar with him (as if you don't have to like his style, but the solos are the WOW factor nonetheless). 



Maybe they like some of it, but the solos go on too long for most non-fans I think, and they also tend to be kind of hyper and all over the place. My mom in particular doesn't like "nervous" music (like fast jazz fusion riffs and solos), so playing her one of the Shut Up title tracks would drive her mad. Even though she listens to metal with obnoxious blast beats, so I've told her how much of a hypocrite she is.

And no I have not played people the YAWYI video, but I've played the song, and people liked that one.

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

I think there's weird and annoying stuff spread out all over Zappas career. But to me those you mention both work well as a full album experience. And as I don't mind their weirdness, I'm not annoyed by it.

I think the main difference is that the annoying stuff on, say, Uncle Meat is harder to ignore, even if played as background music. I wouldn't dare to play the entirity of Uncle Meat and have to subject people to King Kong V or Szolar Czakl or however you spell that, but I've played the entire 3-act Joe's Garage and people enjoyed it. I guess it helps if you have friends who think stuff like Dirty Love or Wet T-Shirt Nite is funny.

Quote If those were played I would be the one leaving the room along with my friends, I'm afraid. I'm exaggerating a bit, but endless guitarsoloing don't have to be weird to annoy me. And I hardly know anyone who has the patience for that (those I do know are are already Zappa-fans). It's not what I personally look for - or long for in music at all. I'm not particularly interested in Zappa's "classical music" either. For someone whose listened to over a thousand moviescores (which is what it reminds me of), I think Zappas uniqueness is largely lost in translation. I'm quite certain I would get something resembling an angry, almost aggressive response from any friends of mine that wasn't already into Zappa (I know plenty who is though). The way I see it these three would all be completely disastrous introductory albums , and not for newcomers at all. 

I think you simply enjoy a lot more and obviously prefer a differnt Zappa than I do. And we probably have very different friends too.

Sure, but the OP asked for what you'd play to get a reaction out of people, not what you'd try to get people into Zappa.

We might have very different friends, yeah. But in my experience, 70's Zappa isn't that bad to put on once in a while. Honestly, it would make for an interesting thread topic to discuss what prog-fans play for their friends if they're the one in charge of the music.
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Since I am my own best friend (and also my own worst enemy, but I can ignore that for now), and I'll imagine back to when I was clueless:

Freak Out!
Uncle Meat
Hot Rats
Waka / Jawaka
One Size Fits All

I Frankly think that for one of my old friends Weasels Ripped My Flesh would be a great Zappa one to try out. He would like lots of Zappa I suspect if he does not know those albums already (have not seen him in considerable years)
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Originally posted by Snikle Snikle wrote:

At least one of my friends enjoyed "The Adventures of Greggery Peccary" immensely, the other thought it was a song from Veggietales.

There was also a time I just had a bunch of songs on shuffle play and thought to myself "It'd be awkward if something like 'Broken Hearts are for a****les' played next"... and then it did, with no intervention. The only time something like that had ever happened to me.
Fun Story! Big smile

So you played that on yourself? Or you mean nobody in the room intervened to say a word? 

What was the condition of the room when the song was over? LOL
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At least one of my friends enjoyed "The Adventures of Greggery Peccary" immensely, the other thought it was a song from Veggietales.

There was also a time I just had a bunch of songs on shuffle play and thought to myself "It'd be awkward if something like 'Broken Hearts are for a****les' played next"... and then it did, with no intervention. The only time something like that had ever happened to me.
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Originally posted by Stressed Cheese Stressed Cheese wrote:

I think it's kind of the opposite. The 60's Mothers era has a lot of weird, annoying stuff, particularly on Uncle Meat and WOIIFTM. Even Hot Rats can go on a bit long at times.
I think there's weird and annoying stuff spread out all over Zappas career. But to me those you mention both work well as a full album experience. And as I don't mind their weirdness, I'm not annoyed by it.

Originally posted by Stressed Cheese Stressed Cheese wrote:

Orchestral Favorites because it's the best representation of his classical music
One of the Shut Up 'N Play Yer Guitar albums...whichever I'm in the mood for I guess
You Are What You is because it's a good culmination of his late-70's onwards era and a good proof that he can write more accessible stuff
If those were played I would be the one leaving the room along with my friends, I'm afraid. I'm exaggerating a bit, but endless guitarsoloing don't have to be weird to annoy me. And I hardly know anyone who has the patience for that (those I do know are are already Zappa-fans). It's not what I personally look for - or long for in music at all. I'm not particularly interested in Zappa's "classical music" either. For someone whose listened to over a thousand moviescores (which is what it reminds me of), I think Zappas uniqueness is largely lost in translation. I'm quite certain I would get something resembling an angry, almost aggressive response from any friends of mine that wasn't already into Zappa (I know plenty who is though). The way I see it these three would all be completely disastrous introductory albums , and not for newcomers at all. 

I think you simply enjoy a lot more and obviously prefer a differnt Zappa than I do. And we probably have very different friends too.
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Originally posted by Stressed Cheese Stressed Cheese wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Most of my "clueless friends" enjoy 1970's rock and would probably respond more positively to the Mothers-era than the 1970's full blown experimental fusion days + dirty joke lyrics.


I think it's kind of the opposite. The 60's Mothers era has a lot of weird, annoying stuff, particularly on Uncle Meat and WOIIFTM. Even Hot Rats can go on a bit long at times. But I've played Freak Out! for my friends, at least the first disc, and they thought that was funny. Over-Nite Sensation and some of OSFA worked out as well, as did Joe's Garage. YAWYI is pretty accessible too. But I've also played a lot of Zappa back when I still lived with my parents, and my siblings and my mom really do not like any of it, really. Especially the guitar solos. But my friends took to Dirty Love and Wet T-Shirt Nite pretty easily.



I guess if I had to pick 5 albums I'd spread them out over different facets of Zappa. So,

Freak Out! simply because it's groundbreaking for 1966 and a completely unique album
Orchestral Favorites because it's the best representation of his classical music
One of the Shut Up 'N Play Yer Guitar albums...whichever I'm in the mood for I guess
Roxy & Elsewhere because it's a good represtation of both his more accessible and fusion focused aspects of this era
You Are What You is because it's a good culmination of his late-70's onwards era and a good proof that he can write more accessible stuff (if you cut out some of the lyrics and the occasional weird touch).

But really, friends of mine become at least acquainted with Zappa sooner or later because he's my favorite artist, and my oldest friends and family will pretty easily pick out a Zappa song if I just play random sh*t.

Wha?? I thought that aspect is what captures the attention and praise of somebody unfamiliar with him (as if you don't have to like his style, but the solos are the WOW factor nonetheless). 

- Agree!
- I would put that second right after Yellow Shark.
- A whole disc of guitar solos! Big smile That might burn them out unless your goal is to test their patience. 
- Agree!
- But that's what makes Zappa! If you do that with YAWYI, you wash all the life out of it. 

Did your friends and family watch the YAWYI music video?? SmileTongue
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