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Politically incorrect prog??

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David_D View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2023 at 12:05
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I like trying to be considerate (to consider the thoughts and feelings of others), and at the same time I think there is great value in being willing to confront other people's values and beliefs even if it offends. And I think there is value in people learning to not be easily offended by having their opinions and beliefs challenged and even made fun of and in learning critical thinking skills where they can assess their own values and beliefs. What I sometimes like to say is, feel free to speak your mind, but mind your speech.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2023 at 13:13
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ speech is either free or it isn’t - you can’t have your cake and eat it, too.


Horsesh*t.




Good point! I hadn’t considered that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2023 at 16:06
Thanks for all the elaborate replies to my extraordinary claim about free speech ... unfortunately I'm in the process of moving to a new home, so I can't write elaborate responses in response right now.

TLDR: Of course I know that in practice free speech does not mean that you are free to say ANYTHING, hence the classic example about yelling "fire" in a cinema. But the principle is valid: If you support the concept of free speech, you should not put any subjective limitations on what people can say. The more you dislike what someone says, because it is not in line with your world views, the more you should support their right to say it. If you don't, then you're not automatically a bad person - you're just someone who doesn't support free speech as much as others. 

Unfortunately nowadays people are quick to take offense, or even to take offense on the behalf of others - social justice warriors is the term. IMHO the world would be a much better place if this offense-taking was seeen as the problem instead of the "politically incorrect" statements that are usually completely within the realms of realistic free-speech laws in most countries. Otherwise we're on a path to a world where nobody says anything in public anymore, scared of someone playing the "I'm offended" card.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2023 at 16:27
There's no offense.  Try to understand the insidious socio-political situation the States is in at the moment and the stress it causes with, well, pretty much anything political.   I actually hate politics, it is the great divider.   But I also read and pay attention to what's happening which itself can cause undue stress.

I would only add, if you want to be a free speech warrior instead of a social justice one, then you have to not mind someone who thinks the "Biden is a Liar" video guy is an idiot.   We're lookin at either Sleepy Joe or Sociopathic Traitor Don over here.   It ain't pretty.




Edited by Atavachron - September 10 2023 at 21:39
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2023 at 16:43
^ slight correction: I’m allowed to “mind” statements as much as I want. Free speech is not about liking everything people say, it is about allowing them to say it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Stressed Cheese Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2023 at 17:26
For every person who takes taking offense too far, there's 100 people who whine about people who take taking offense to far, and 100 more who spout nazi bullsh*t. Of all the problems we're dealing with in the world today, it's probably one of the smallest, and yet some people seem to get the most upset about it. But it's also a little sad that there's people who seem to have a harder time with nazis being deplatformed because it clashes with their idea of free speech, than with the nazis themselves. There's actual freedoms being removed or being put at risk by far-right a****les, but no, let's keep bitching about how a venue didn't want to host some transphobic comedian or whatever. Poor guy...

But getting critizised for being against free speech or less in favor of free speech or whatever is stupid in the first place. Aside from the obvious fact that it's not a simple matter of being pro- or anti- free speech (nobody in the world is fully against free speech, and nobody in the world is pro absolute free speech in every possible permutation), if someone accuses me for being "against" free speech, I'm usually like...so? If I obviously state that in some cases I'd be stricter in what I think should be allowed, then pointing that out is kind of daft, isn't it? It's like accusing me of not liking an album if I described how much I dislike it. No sh*t sherlock.

It's fine to get upset about censorship or about when people get offended by something they shouldn't get offended by. Hell, I do it. But it's another thing to be paranoid about it because you've read a little bit too much bullsh*t on facebook about what (people try to convince you into thinking) you're supposedly not allowed to say anymore. It usually comes from a good place anyway. That people want to better the world wrt racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. and sometimes go about it the wrong way doesn't mean they have malicious intent. People who interpret it that way are telling on themselves. And sometimes, if you feel like you're not allowed to have a certain opinion anymore, it might be a good idea to look at why that seems that way and perhaps consider if you're just not keeping up with modern society.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Frets N Worries Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2023 at 17:29
Ah, Progitics, ya love to see it. 

Free speech is letting me make terrible jokes
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Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2023 at 20:30
Originally posted by Stressed Cheese Stressed Cheese wrote:

And sometimes, if you feel like you're not allowed to have a certain opinion anymore, it might be a good idea to look at why that seems that way and perhaps consider if you're just not keeping up with modern society.
 
What's so great about modern society?
 

No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Awesoreno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2023 at 23:09
^There's pros and cons, to be sure. But, for example, eugenics and social Darwinism ideas used to be held in high regard in many western societies, and now, it's more commonly frowned upon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2023 at 23:31
^ This is true, and there is something to be said for whatever progress we've made away from ignorance.   But like stubborn children we want what we want when we want it.  


"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2023 at 00:17
Originally posted by Stressed Cheese Stressed Cheese wrote:

For every person who takes taking offense too far, there's 100 people who whine about people who take taking offense to far, and 100 more who spout nazi bullsh*t. 

If we take this thread as a first indication, the opposite is true. I've posted a video mocking Biden, and all hell broke loose, people started whining, bitching and attacking people left and right. There's much more offense-taking than offending happening here. And exactly zero people spouted nazi bullsh*t, unless I am mistaken. But good old Godwin's law holds ... someone had to introduce the nazi topic.


BTW: Here in Europe where I live (Sweden, before that Germany) there is a growing tendency towards flagging any pro-liberty stance as ultra right-wing (nazi). If I decided to protest against governmental overreach in Germany today, and walked through the streets, holding our German constitution (a book describing the "Grundrechte" - human rights), many people would look at that and say "here's the far right people marching again". That's how twisted the world has become. 

So I'm not really surprised when I'm reading nauseating nonsense like what you wrote above. It does make me angry. But mostly it frustrates me because every sentence of this gish gallop would require a lengthy discussion to clear up.

Final thought: I encourage you to read Brave New World. Then decide whether what that book describes is an utopia or a dystopia. 


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - September 11 2023 at 00:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2023 at 01:17
Here's some clever POLITICAL incorrectness in prog.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2023 at 01:27
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Here's some clever POLITICAL incorrectness in prog.


Great song, one of my favorite bands.
What's incorrect about this? Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2023 at 01:29
And of course this one is a classic ...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2023 at 02:11
Freedom of speech is a "don't know what you got till it's gone" it seems. A real shame that is. Dissidents in Iran, China, North Korea, Saudi Arabia etc... probably understands its value better than people in the western world. "free speech warrior"... sheesh. It used to be completely normal to consider it a good. Unless you were a conservative religious leader or something like that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2023 at 02:19
^ Indeed, these days the Orwellian newspeak has progressed towards the notion that only the ultra-right (nazis) would campaign for liberty. After all, we're all free - aren't we? We live in the greatest and most progressive society ever - and it's getting better by the minute, we never regress. Today we can even choose our sex! Have our genitalia cut off at the age of 14 or even earlier ... now THAT is progress. To hell with the nay-sayers! If they're not with us, they're against us ... that's a principle that has served us well historically, hasn't it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2023 at 02:44
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Here's some clever POLITICAL incorrectness in prog.


Great song, one of my favorite bands.
What's incorrect about this? Confused

It is saying many of the things I've said in this thread, but in a less direct and more poetic way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Stressed Cheese Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2023 at 03:05
1) Why bring trans people up all of a sudden only to talk sh*t about them?
2) Why do you sound so sarcastic when you talk about sex change? it IS great you can choose your sex these days. Why mention you're either with us or against us? Are you against it? Are you against trans people or something?
3) Currently, kids do not get their genetalia cut off at 14.
4) Almost nobody who starts the process of changing their sex later wants to change back, and the sooner you start the process, the better the results. Nobody starts a sex change process on a whim or because it's "trendy". People who think that are truly too stupid to wipe their own ass.
5) Those who do wish to reverse the process usually don't regret having started the process.

You're falling for transphobic right-wing propaganda disguised as concerns over children's health. Your family members or friends need to pull you out of this rabbit-hole before you're gone for good and they no longer want to associate with you. I've seen it happen, and seeing as 50% of what you post on this forum has something to do with "wokism" and whining about how you're not allowed to say stuff, I know which way you're heading. Or maybe try to talk to an actual trans person instead of believing what those who hate them say about them.

You've shown your true colors, and I hope fellow forum members see you for what you are and not naively interpret this is some kind of misunderstanding or difference of opinion. He doesn't bring this up for no reason, people. Goodbye.


Edited by Stressed Cheese - September 11 2023 at 03:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2023 at 03:15
^ "Unhinged" is the word, I think. Unhappy Needless to say, I am not against trans people at all. It was you who opened up all sorts of other topics, in this case "homophobia". Well, if you must project your problems onto me, go ahead. I can only say that at this point I REALLY hope that we never meet in real life, since you strike me as a really angry person.

To anyone else: I apologise for spamming this thread, but this is just too good. For satire/sarcasm to work, there needs to be a core of truth. Have a look at this serious comment on Joe Biden, if you think that the Liar video was framing him for something he does not deserve.



Edited by MikeEnRegalia - September 11 2023 at 03:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stressed Cheese Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2023 at 03:52
Yes, I'd say believing 14-year olds are getting their dicks cut off and bringing that up out of nowhere is pretty unhinged indeed. But again, you need someone close to you to get through to you, I know I'm just some random guy you're arguing with online. So I think I'll just leave you be from now on.

Edited by Stressed Cheese - September 11 2023 at 03:52
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