Politically incorrect prog??

Edited by Atavachron - September 08 2023 at 16:02

Atavachron wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ What does it have to do with Europe? Please name your favorite country on this planet where it is legal to go up to someone and punch them in the face. As the seat of some of the most egregious Fascist civilizations ever, I think European history is quite relevant.    As for a legal place to punch someone I'm guessing Haiti but I could be wrong.   I certainly wouldn't want to live there, but don't miss the point : If a man wants to force women to have abortions, allow everyone to own military assault weapons, cheat on elections when they're side is losing, and wants me to go along with it, that's a problem.   Under such circumstances, if the only way I can convince him to stop it is to pick up my own gun (or better, punch him in the nose), then I might have to do that.   It's called standing up for yourself and what you believe in.

^ I’m just responding to claims you or others are making. But sure, blame me. Or punch me in the face! I surely deserve it ;)

Edited by MikeEnRegalia - September 09 2023 at 00:09

Getting punched in the face for saying something stupid is an age old tradition all around the world. Government can't protect you all the time. Most people with any common sense know not to say things that might get you smacked in the head.

This thread got real depressing.

Stressed Cheese, or Ian if I may call you that, I don't think you're a bad person. And I also know sometimes that people are really bad according to beliefs and to cultural norms. Commonly it is because those people act in their own self-interest without concern/ consideration for others.

I agree that attacking someone will (most of the time) not be the thing to convince them of their wrongs. But that doesn't mean they deserve sympathy if they get attacked for their views. There's a difference. I know it probably won't solve anything, but again, that's the hypothetical taken too far. But we've also seen that people are getting a little bit too comfortable recently with their alt-right beliefs, and we've already seen where it leads when people try to take rights away from women and LGBT+ folks. Having a bit of a backbone regarding this isn't a bad thing IMO.

I agree that that does not mean they deserve sympathy, and as a corollary, I never bought into this idea that I hear from some people at this forum that you automatically deserve respect. For me it's not much about just deserts / what is deserved. And I believe in standing up to injustice, I just generally prefer a different way. I can think of many cases where violence may be required. I take issue with pacifism and I take issue with passiveism, or just being passive in the face of evils.

All this is true, but it's also too easy to excuse yourself or hide behind your upbringing. Yes, some people will legit believe that group X they were taught to hate is truly evil, twisted, an affront to god. But most people ain't that stupid, that I truly believe. A lot of people can't be persuaded by debate. Some heavy resistance might make them reconsider. But it can also isolate them further, and drive them further to their alt-corner. But all of that can't change the fact how I feel about punching a true-blooded nazi.

It can be too easy for people to use it as an excuse, and hide behind it, but there are reasons for what we we believe and how we behave, even if it can seem ineffable, and I want to recognise that as well. In that way it can be better to address the conditions that lead to general types of a****lery and worse. I like a pragmatic and thoughtful approach that also conforms to certain ethics. My fundamental assumption, by the way, involves thinking that a society that puts an emphasis on maximising well-being while minimising suffering tends to be a good one. Of course there are nuances, and even if people agree to that we might have very different approaches. And my ideal world would be both more compassionate and more rational.

That isolation is a problem, and pushing people to hide their views and conspire with others of similar mind out of sight can be a major problem. There is a saying that sunlight is the best disinfectant. I do think that both "sides" often push other into extremes. Not everyone is up to rational dialogue and people feel that their world views, which is also part of their personality, is threatened by differing views. AT PA I have seen how this leads to people trying to shut down conversations and how it has led to threats of violence (against people on a forum who we don't even really know because of different ideas -- pride is part of the problem).

I prefer a kind of dialectic to debate.

I'm fully against any form of physical punishment wrt our legal systems. And yet morally, things are more grey. To stress again, I don't go around beating people up. I don't try and get people beat up. But if some people can go around and get away with devoting their life to making life hell for other people, my moral compass tells me a black eye is them getting away easy. I do hope that you don't think of me as a bad person. I have a lot of sympathy and respect for people...but if they do not, I won't return the favor - upbringing be damned. I know reality is more complicated. I'm sure many people have seen friends or family go down the wrong end. I know I have - going from being a close family member to spouting anti-gay and anti-trans propaganda whenever they can. If you accept hate like that into your heart, you have to bear the consequences and can't come crying to me if someone cuts you out of your life or breaks your nose. And trust me, there's a lot of people who are less compromising than me - and with the way certain things are going in the world, I can't blame them.

I don't think of you as a bad person, and I don't want to treat disrespectful people respectfully and I don't like to tolerate the intolerant, or tolerate intolerant beliefs and belief systems.

And I am determinist (causal chains) who does think it often better not to think that way and take responsibility for ones actions even if one never had truly free will.

Anyway, apologies to the OP for derailing this thread, but I need to at least make clear what I mean, you know.

I didn't derail this thread, just added to the derailment, but I figure it could be nudged back on track if someone cares (might take some persistent nudging).

Edited by Logan - September 08 2023 at 19:28

Death Note is a good anime.

Some food for thought though, here’s what Ayn Rand had to say about violence. I’m not an objectivist, but I heard some libertarian leanings here (which I agree with in principle), so it might be interesting to see what the mother of modern libertarians thinks about the topic.

Edited by MikeEnRegalia - September 09 2023 at 01:19

@Logan, I'll just keep this very short (or at least I'll try), because I think most people would've had enough of my ramblings by now. But the main thing is, I don't think violence is the answer. I don't think it's the just punishment. There's just some people that have lost their humanity to such a degree, that I either don't care that they get assaulted, or in some cases that they downright deserve to get a black eye. It's really that simple. I don't think it's the solution, I don't think we should systematically punch nazis in the face. It's just that it's morally perfectly fine by me, and if I think someone is bad enough, it might even be satisfying to see. The moment people start to overthink it, you lose what's at the heart of the matter - that I just really hate nazis.

omphaloskepsis wrote: What happens if the person who you think is a Nazi claims that he/she is not a Nazi?