Politically incorrect prog??

MortSahlFan wrote: SteveG wrote: Roy Harper - The Death Of God.  The Black Cloud Of Islam.  I don't see that lyric, or Islam mentioned anywhere, but I guess the Black Cloud of Christianity and Judaism is trendy, and thus, acceptable.

Stressed Cheese wrote: Atavachron wrote: No, just an impression.   You don't mock someone's work and then expect the artist to not care, free speech or not---  in fact, if 'free speech' is one's excuse, they should expect to be confronted.   You can't just do whatever you want and then hide behind free speech and somehow hope someone doesn't want to break your nose.   It's irrational. Right. Some remarks should probably lead you to expect people might wanna punch you over them. Some remarks warrant a good punch, even. Not this Biden stuff maybe, but yeah.

I am not much of one for thought-crime, so if it leads to someone wanting to punch someone, well that is freedom of thought (violent thoughts should be a concern), but as a freedom of expression as a response to insult/mockery (or perceived insult and mockery because I have been accused of that when it was not at all my intent) I have serious issues with violence. What would be acceptable for punching would vary, how hard the punch can be would vary, interpretations will vary, if it can be other forms of violence will vary. I don't trust individuals to make such decisions and mete out retribution (not a great believer in retribution) justly. I support laws that discourage violence. A punch could lead to fatality and very serious injury, and might even be due to a misunderstanding of intent. Another might behead someone for causing offence, or stab them, or shoot them.... Oha, and I also believe in having limits on what speech is allowed.

I was driving a big van with my child to kindergarten (the kindergarten happened to be church-run). I changed lanes when I should not have as there was a car who was speeding more than he should have. I had indicated that I would be changing lanes with plenty of notice. There was no accident and he had to slow down quite quickly (not slam his brakes fast). It often has happened to me on the other end. I waved my apology and turned into the church parking lot which was very close-by (that's why I needed to change lanes).

The man, much heftier than I, pulled in and started yelling and swearing at me and telling me that he was going to punch me. "I'm going to punch you, would you like that? Wanna be punched? I'm gonna punch you in the face." I was, why would I want that? By this time my 5 year old by this time was crying wildly and he just kept going. This man was so irate. I apologised multiple times and he kept on threatening me. He even had an older religious man in the side-seat (wearing a turban) which I thought would be very disrespectful to him, and more-so on so-called holy ground and more-so by a preschool/ kindergarten. I told him multiple times, let's go the police station and make a report. We can call them. I'll be perfectly honest and accept any consequences from them if there are any. If he wanted to punch me, okay, but I don't think doing it would be fine, and not in front of a young child, and I don't think his super aggressive, threatening and downright rude behaviour was warranted. But I guess to him it was, and his passenger did not complain -- just calmly looked on. Who is to decide, who is the arbiter of what's right and what's wrong? Well, i think that's why we need laws that limit freedom of expression. I think he realised that the police would not be very sympathetic to his behaviour. I kept as calm as I could be and he left. I would rather us have spoken to the police. It was a horrible and scary experience for me, and I was very concerned for my child. Even if he had no empathy or sympathy for me, he might have for the child who was bawling her eyes out as he spewed out a torrent of abusive and threatening language despite my apologies.

And I would not be surprised if a young Henry Rollins had punched me in those circumstances, but an older Rollins has spoken out against violence and hate. For some, they are quick to anger and wish violence on people due to perceived insult and rage. I have seen threats here at PA against people (about smashing someone's teeth in), and I am not okay with that. The polkitics thread would get really heated and nasty sometimes. And I don't jibe with the mentality of someone who would want to break someone's nose, or smash in their teeth, because they are offended.    Ouch, I think, it's like I feel that pain. And then you are legally responsible for the consequences. I had a kid at elementary school who, I don't know why, maybe I offended him, decided to uppercut my jaw. I needed multiple root canals and my parents payed for it. I think the boy should have had consequences, not by my punching back, but having his parents pay for the dentist and taking that out of his allowance or whatever (such dental work can cost thousands).

Edited by Logan - September 08 2023 at 11:05

MikeEnRegalia wrote: Atavachron wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ I don't know Henry Rollins personally, but I know descriptions of him having had anger issues in the past. But I'm not sure he's quite that petty.  This does not "bother" me - I merely find it intriguing that you would be so sure about how he reacts to satire. That level of confidence would suggest to me that there's some interviews or statements to that effect. No, just an impression.   You don't mock someone's work and then expect the artist to not care, free speech or not---  in fact, if 'free speech' is one's excuse, they should expect to be confronted.   You can't just do whatever you want and then hide behind free speech and somehow hope someone doesn't want to break your nose.   It's irrational. I don't think Lars mocked Henry Rollins - he mocked Joe Biden, who is a pathological liar, which makes the sarcastic video perfectly reasonable. Of course Rollins might object to the video for various reasons. But in a free society people have to be able to express their opinion without fear of violence. If you disagree with that - fine, but then you have to accept the fact that you are against a free society. You didn't say one way or the other - so suppose Henry Rollins today sees this video, gets angry, goes to "Lars"'s house, rings, and when he opens, Rollins punches him in the nose. Ok or not?

Stressed Cheese wrote: It comes down to the old question, "is it okay to punch a nazi?". Some people like to over-think this question, and come up with addendums like "who decides who's a nazi?"

I've lived/worked long enough (while a struggling artist:) in places/comminities with radical lefties, freaks, skinheads/punks and ageing paranoid hippies to overthink this this question. I wouldn't trust any of the ones among them who simply loved to fight (and bragged about it) to decide who was "Nazi enough" to deserve to be beaten up by them. I'm sure they might as well have ended up as nazis themselves. I didn't notice much of a difference in their a****le behaviour. My personal answer is no, it's not okay to punch anyone who hasn't been violent in any way themselves.

Stressed Cheese wrote: ^^Logan, of course in that scenario violence isn't warranted, and that sounds like an awful thing to experience. A lot of people wouldn't have been able to keep things from escalating like you managed. Now I'm not a violent person myself (I've never once gotten into a fight - not even as a kid), and I'm not saying that there's a fool-proof way to determine when a punch is warranted. All I mean to say is, some people's views are so abhorrent that not only might you wish to see them punched, but if you did see it, it'd be satisfying. It comes down to the old question, "is it okay to punch a nazi?". Some people like to over-think this question, and come up with addendums like "who decides who's a nazi?", or "what if they're already being punished by law for the things they say", but that's besides the point. The answer, in a broad sense, is yes. Yes it is okay. At the end of the day, some opinions and statements go beyond mere disagreement and reach into detestable territory that it's only natural to want to see them suffer (to some degree - I doubt even the most progressive person would want to see a Nazi get lynched). E.g., regardless of whether or not, say, Theirry Baudet suffers legal ramifications for some of the things he says, I'd still be happy if I was him on the news with a black eye and a bloodied lip. Doesn't mean I'm going to be the one punching him, but my moral compass tells me he deserves it, and I have zero respect for the man. I know it's a bit off-topic and it has nothing to do with that biden parody anymore, but I felt like I should clear that up. Just so people don't think I go around punching people who cut me off in traffic or who disagree with me.

Oh, I understood you and had not assumed you to be the kind of droog who is up for a little of the old ultraviolence.

A problem I have is that in what scenario it is warranted is, outside of laws, subjective, and I think going the way of thinking it is okay in some cases of perceived or definite insult/ discrimination/ parody/ intolerance is very problematic.

I am not okay with punching a Nazi unless it is self-defence or used in the defence another person, and I don't think that it is an effective strategy that will win the hearts of people or change minds. If it was, then I might change my mind (as a moral consequentionalist kind of thinking). I'd happily see all murderers and rapists spontaneously get bloody noses. I knew a Neo-Nazi (for my college days), very intelligent guy with abhorrent views and a difficult upbringing and he came to change his mind as he studied at university. His ideas were challenged, not his face. Attack the argument, not the man, as the saying goes, unless you really need to. And be prepared to own up to and accept the consequences.

I would get no pleasure from seeing a beaten up Nazi, well I might well in some cases as with many other groups and individuals. and I heartily dislike violence. I have a strong a sense of empathy, and that goes towards people whose views I may find abhorrent. I also wonder why did they turn out that way? I'm a determinist. I can feel very sorry for some because they were raised with those views and surrounded by others with those views, and maybe they have not learned to be critical thinkers. It's like lot of people are raised with racist views or discriminatory religious views. Some aren't too smart, some want to fit in, some are just the dregs of humanity, the dispossessed and hopeless, who need to feel better than somebody else, group, or race. Trash as we might call them.

And I wish so many people did not think it acceptable to quickly resort to violence or to threats of it, or even to contemplate it as a course of action and legitimise and rationalise it as much as some do (often it's such an emotional reaction). It may be in our nature, but I think that has become far too normalised as a response and desire. I am not a big fan of retributive justice, I do tend to favour restorative justice, and I don't get pleased to see people hurt. Doesn't necessarily mean that I will be displeases depending on the scenario. Of course sometimes violence is necessary, particularly when acting on other's violence.

Oh and I am one that can see breaking the laws sometimes that one sees unjust or because of emergency as long as one is willing to accept the consequences, at least in a society like mine where we have more freedoms than in many places and generally norms and laws that I am on-board with.

On a side note, there is an anime called Death Note where someone has a notebook which you can use to execute people. I have thought that if I had that I would be using it -- maybe starting with a bad hostage situation or known murderer or rapist on the loose, then to other killers including world leaders who wage war on others and persecute people, and then, despite being against the death penalty on principle, maybe to get rid of a lot more people who might already be imprisoned, and then who knows?

^ That's not a totalitiarian government, but how an actual functioning democracy works. Taking the law in your own hands is anarchy.

Perhaps a bit off-topic but regarding censorship in Prog, this is a funny case:

Atavachron wrote: Saperlipopette! wrote: ^^ Yeah I wouldn't trust your jugdement in regards to what's right either. I'm not particularly idealistic. I think a State monopoly on violence is better than you running around and breaking the noses on people you dislike. Oh...  r e a l l y ? So you believe in Totalitarian government... better to have secret police & trains running on time than a few fistfights in the street, is it?

^ What does it have to do with Europe? Please name your favorite country on this planet where it is legal to go up to someone and punch them in the face.