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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21211 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2023 at 05:07
^^ at TYM we only have one entry for Alan Parsons that contains all the various band/project/solo albums, and it's under P.
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Originally posted by Stressed Cheese Stressed Cheese wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:


I do at least have one album by the Pat Metheny Group, purchased recently following your recommendation. It's just a question now of whether to list him/them under "P" or "M". I always have the same problem too with the Alan Parsons Project, never knowing whether he/they should be listed under "A" or "P". Ermm

Alan Parsons Project is a group, not a person, so A would be appropriate.

For names I also sort by first name, since software does that. It'd annoy me if my iTunes, the music player on my phone, RYM etc. filed stuff by firrst name, and my CD shelves would be the only place to deviate from that. Maybe before digital era I would do it by last name, but first name is pretty much standard now.

Really? Most platforms still have a column for the sorting name of the artist, and will use it if filled.
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Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

You're really going to post your entire collection?

It could be also interesting to hear how many albums you have mutual with Paul  LOL 
- even it's maybe more than one could imagine. Big smile
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Yeah but I really don't need to see a list of 800 albums with youtube links, it's a bit too spammy for me personally, just makes a thread less of a discussion and more carpet bombing.
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Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

I'm not so sure that's true about RYM. It seems to be filing under P for Alan Parsons Project, Alan Parsons, and Jaco Pastorius on this page: https://rateyourmusic.com/collection/progaardvark/57

Yeah I was completely wrong about RYM, lol. I might've been confused with Discogs, which do use the first name. It's probably really dependent on what you tend to use for music, as for me, sorting by first name is the norm (outside of RYM obv.).
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I'm not sure what software you are referring to that sorts by first name. Without knowing this, I can only guess that the data has been entered as first name followed by last name. Would it not sort it by surname if you entered it surname, first name? If that's the case, than it's not necessarily a software issue, but a data entry issue. I'm not saying you cannot do that. It is your database and you are welcome to enter it any way you want to. But in shared databases, some sort of standard filing rules should be in place or the database becomes an inconsistent mess. Another issue to consider is initial articles. File The Flower Kings under T or F?


I wouldn't say I have a "database". If you rip a CD, or buy something on iTunes or Bandcamp, it just puts the artist name in as the artist name. AFAIK, there's no first name/surname split in the ID3 tag system, so unless you have your own database/system (like RYM has), your files just have George Harrison under G. Unless you list the artist name as "Harrison, George", but that would be a bit odd IMO as it's both the listed and sort name.

In programs like iTunes you can sort things anyway you'd like regardless of the displayed artist name, so you can, say, sort George Harrison under Harrison. That way the name will still show up as George Harrison, but he'll be under H. Which has its advantages, because you can e.g. take all albums credited under The Mothers Of Invention, The Mothers, Zappa/Mothers etc. and all put it chronologically under F or Z while still having the original credited artist displayed (which I haven't bothered with - I just have every Mothers album credited under Frank Zappa). Individual websites and such might have different sorting systems, but AFAIK, you're limited to this system when it comes your own music files.

Artists that start with "The" should just ignore the The. Which I'm pretty sure is almost universal. Strangely enough the music app on my phone recently updated and now it sorts all artists that start with The under T. That's the only time I've ever seen that.

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^^ at TYM we only have one entry for Alan Parsons that contains all the various band/project/solo albums, and it's under P.

Alan Parsons Project is a group consisting of Parsons and Eric Woolfson. The name is a bit unfortunate, but APP =/= Alan Parsons.

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:


Really? Most platforms still have a column for the sorting name of the artist, and will use it if filled.

Yeah, you can sort, but it still depends on the platform/site/whatever HOW things are sorted when you click that.


Edited by Stressed Cheese - August 24 2023 at 07:19
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Points: 21211 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2023 at 07:51
^^ The common denominator is Alan Parsons, isn't it? Just like with Devin Townsend and his band/project, and Neal Morse and others. For all my purposes around my collection, I do not need to keep these separated. Your milage may vary Smile
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

List under last name.
Originally posted by Stressed Cheese Stressed Cheese wrote:

Alan Parsons Project is a group, not a person, so A would be appropriate.
 
What about Jethro Tull, Sebastian Hardie, Pink Floyd, King Crimson, Van der Graaf Generator?
 
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Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Yeah but I really don't need to see a list of 800 albums with youtube links, it's a bit too spammy for me personally, just makes a thread less of a discussion and more carpet bombing.

You mean a Paul thing? LOL  Sorry, Paul  Embarrassed
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Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

List under last name.
Originally posted by Stressed Cheese Stressed Cheese wrote:

Alan Parsons Project is a group, not a person, so A would be appropriate.
 
What about Jethro Tull, Sebastian Hardie, Pink Floyd, King Crimson, Van der Graaf Generator?
 


Well, ignoring for a minute that I personally sort everything by first name in the first place, only Sebastian Hardie is an edge-case IMO. That's a fake name someone made up, but at the end of the day, it's the name of the band (like Alice Cooper was at the beginning IIRC), so I'd just treat it as band name, not a person's name. Jethro Tull is a band named after a person, but it's still a band name in this context, not a person, and the latter 3 don't pretend to be a person's name. Do any people sort JT under T? I'd be surprised.

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^^ The common denominator is Alan Parsons, isn't it? Just like with Devin Townsend and his band/project, and Neal Morse and others. For all my purposes around my collection, I do not need to keep these separated. Your milage may vary Smile
If you sort them both in the same way alphabetically, it wouldn't really matter if you treat them as one entry, but they are separate entities.

Sometimes, artists do The [NAME] Band, or [NAME] and the [BLABLABLAs], in which case it can usually be treated as the artist releasing something under a different name. Or you get stuff like Hiromi releasing albums under the "The Trio Project" moniker, but it's still a solo album for all intents and purposes. But that's not what The Alan Parsons Project is. In his solo career, AP has the final say, but in tAPP, it's him and Woolfson. The Alan Parsons Project is like Steely Dan, but with a more misleading name, really. It was used for marketing purposes, and because, once they got well known, it would be a bit confusing to change the name. But it was always a duo. If anything, Eric Woolfson is more responsible for APP's music, so it'd probably be more appropriate, if you HAD to sort it under a solo artist, to file it under Eric Woolfson.
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Originally posted by Stressed Cheese Stressed Cheese wrote:

I wouldn't say I have a "database". If you rip a CD, or buy something on iTunes or Bandcamp, it just puts the artist name in as the artist name. AFAIK, there's no first name/surname split in the ID3 tag system, so unless you have your own database/system (like RYM has), your files just have George Harrison under G. Unless you list the artist name as "Harrison, George", but that would be a bit odd IMO as it's both the listed and sort name.

In programs like iTunes you can sort things anyway you'd like regardless of the displayed artist name, so you can, say, sort George Harrison under Harrison. That way the name will still show up as George Harrison, but he'll be under H. Which has its advantages, because you can e.g. take all albums credited under The Mothers Of Invention, The Mothers, Zappa/Mothers etc. and all put it chronologically under F or Z while still having the original credited artist displayed (which I haven't bothered with - I just have every Mothers album credited under Frank Zappa). Individual websites and such might have different sorting systems, but AFAIK, you're limited to this system when it comes your own music files.

Artists that start with "The" should just ignore the The. Which I'm pretty sure is almost universal. Strangely enough the music app on my phone recently updated and now it sorts all artists that start with The under T. That's the only time I've ever seen that.

I learned something new today. Thanks for that. I never really spent anytime ripping CDs and I don't have an mp3 player or something similar, so I was unaware that artists' names were entered in this manner. I did check out the ID3 tag specification and yes, it's just a 30-byte segment of a 128-byte segment that is located at the end of the audio file (for ID3v1 - I didn't check the updated ones). No rules about entry at all. So you're at the whims of how the data was entered upstream at the source. I see that there is another tag spec called APE and it also has no entry standard, but interestingly enough, it allows for UTF-8 strings which means you can use anything from the whole Unicode standard. 


I'm glad that you are able to sort things on your end any way that you like. That's a nice feature. Sorting by first name or "The" might drive me bonkers until I get used to it. Embarrassed
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How are you doing, Paul?  Smile
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

How are you doing, Paul?  Smile
Paul is the heart and soul of PA. Without his input, the forums are dull.

Edited by Grumpyprogfan - August 30 2023 at 06:42
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

How are you doing, Paul?  Smile
Paul is the heart and soul of PA. Without his input, the forums are dull.

Thanks Will. Your check's in the post. Tongue I wish you good luck and Good Will Hunting out those classic prog albums to add to your collection, and on that musical note, these are some of the prog Relics I've picked up at bargain basement prices from various car boot sales and charity shops so far this year:-

David Bowie - Low
Deep Purple - Shades of Deep Purple
Bryan Ferry + Roxy Music - More Than This: The Best of Roxy Music
Jethro Tull - Stand Up
Marillion - Script for a Jester's Tear
Mercury Rev - Snowflake Midnight
Muse - The Resistance
Mike Oldfield - Amarok
Pink Floyd - A Saucerful of Secrets
Pink Floyd - Meddle
Pink Floyd - Relics
Todd Rundgren - The Best of Todd Rundgren
Supertramp - Crime of the Century
Vangelis - Chariots of Fire
Rick Wakeman & the English Rock Ensemble - A Gallery of the Imagination
Roger Waters - Amused to Death
YES - Yes


Edited by Psychedelic Paul - September 06 2023 at 19:15
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I have really missed Psychedelic Paul's polls - albums of 81,82,83,84 etc. 

I really hope he does more of these! SmileThumbs Up
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Originally posted by Octopus II Octopus II wrote:

I have really missed Psychedelic Paul's polls - albums of 81,82,83,84 etc. 

I really hope he does more of these! SmileThumbs Up
Thanks. In that case, you'll be glad to hear my next music-themed poll will be coming up sometime tomorrow,  provisionally titled "Tea or Coffee?" - just as soon as I've put the kettle on. Tongue

I'll also be continuing where I left off with my yearly album polls. Thumbs Up


Edited by Psychedelic Paul - September 06 2023 at 13:14
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by Octopus II Octopus II wrote:

I have really missed Psychedelic Paul's polls - albums of 81,82,83,84 etc. 

I really hope he does more of these! SmileThumbs Up
Thanks. In that case, you'll be glad to hear my next music-themed poll will be coming up sometime tomorrow,  provisionally titled "Tea or Coffee?" - just as soon as I've put the kettle on. Tongue

I'll also be continuing where I left off with my yearly polls. Thumbs Up

Mark me down for coffee.  Cream...no sugar.Wink
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by Octopus II Octopus II wrote:

I have really missed Psychedelic Paul's polls - albums of 81,82,83,84 etc. 

I really hope he does more of these! SmileThumbs Up
Thanks. In that case, you'll be glad to hear my next music-themed poll will be coming up sometime tomorrow,  provisionally titled "Tea or Coffee?" - just as soon as I've put the kettle on. Tongue

I'll also be continuing where I left off with my yearly polls. Thumbs Up

Looking forward to them! SmileThumbs Up
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^List under last name.

You're absolutely right! With a little Imagination, I've finally solved the Mystery of the Alan Parsons Project conundrum, meaning bands such as APP, Alice Cooper, the Jimi Hendrix Experience and the Pat Metheny Group, etc, etc, should always be listed under the surname of the artist, just as they are at ProgArchives and in all good record stores too. Smile

The only exceptions being bands with made-up names such as Henry Cow, Jethro Tull and Sebastian Hardie, where they're  listed on PA under their first names instead.  I hope that finally clears things up and hasn't just muddied the waters still further. Geek


Edited by Psychedelic Paul - September 06 2023 at 17:44
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^You mentioned Muddy Waters?
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^ I've barely dipped my toes into Muddy Waters, but I've always got Time for Roger Waters. Smile
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