Symphonic metal.

Actually Ne Obliviscaris's new album, Exul, is great example of a well-ish produced album (even if it is too sterile and clean) that could be compared to the above, I suppose, with it's orchestral arrangements and more progressive, yet abrasive qualities.

Let's go with that one. Ne Obliviscaris's Exul.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^^ I think I know what you mean - but still, I'm confused: If a band is going for a particular style which, among other aspects, includes a reduced dynamic range (e.g. it's uniformly loud most of the time), how is that "bad production"? To me bad production in terms of loudness is when the overal sound becomes distorted, like Metallica did for example on Death Magnetic.

The sound IS distorted. I can barely make out any of the instruments, and after about 30 seconds, it is headache inducing, and I have to turn it off. It all sounds like one garbled mess. Obviously the reduced DR is a stylistic choice; they're trying to sound like Wintersun circa 2004, who shouldn't imo be your aim to imitate. You don't hire Tony Lindgren or Jens Bogren if you don't want to make your music sound like... well Tony Lindgren or Jens Bogren (who imo are today's Rick Rubin). The "Blackwater Park sound," is what I like to call it, and it's terrible. Just because it is indeed a stylistic choice doesn't mean it still doesn't sound like compressed garbage. But if this sound doesn't bother you, then I envy you. I just personally can't stand it.

While I can't get an exact DR calculation here, I estimate it at a high 6 or low 7, which isn't terrible, but certainly not good. For reference, Death magnetic is 4. The Stage is 12. What I can't stand, however, is that when analyzing this in Audacity I have found it clips on average every 6 seconds or so, which is absolutely unacceptable in 2023. A higher DR (which this isn't) doesn't necessarily free the music from compression. And this is compressed like sh*t.

Sure Death Magnetic is brickwalled oblivion, and is a much, much worse album, and in 2008 the Atavistia album would have been more acceptable then it is today, imo, but I'm just so fed up with these outdated, poor production techniques. While some bands, like Avenged Sevenfold, Horrendous on their new album, and Ne Obliviscaris as pointed out above, have dropped the desire to be as loud as possible, and moved forward in trying to actually sound good, some bands, like this Atavistia album, are still stuck in 2005, making thin, dull, and compressed music that does no justice to the music played. Death Magnetic was just the tip of the iceberg and winner of the loudness war. Just because it is the worst example of it, doesn't mean anything not quite as bad as it isn't still bad.

Even if Jens Bogren and company didn't compress their music as much as they do, I still hate the sound they create. Their prodcution is so front heavy, there is barely any room to breathe. I hate how everything in their engineering is just piled on top of each other and warring against each other. It's too much and everything needs to be toned down several notches. Actually provide some dynamism, please. Consequently, all their albums sound the same, and they sound dull, compressed, overdone, and just plain mediocre. This is the "Blackwater Park sound." It hasn't changed since 2001, and I'm sick of it.

Other victims of this sound are:

The three albums I pointed out when I first made this post

Subterranean Masquerade's Mountain Fever

Aquilus's Bellum I

Amorphis's Queen of Time

Septicflesh's Codex Omega

Insomnium's Anno 1696

etc.

All of these sound horrible. The only one I knew was produced by this studio is Subterranean Masquerade, the others I just looked up now. I thought they sounded terrible before, and now I understand why they sound terrible. It's the "Blackwater Park sound."

Compare these two songs and tell me the latter doesn't sound more compressed, less dynamic, less clear. more claustrophobic, and just overall less good than the former:

Sure it's more powerful... but at a cost to every other redeeming element to the music.

The latter was engineered by Jens Bogren. The former was engineered by Dan Swano. I'm no Swano simp, either, but of all the major metal producers from Sweden, he's the one that knows what he's doing the best. I'd take Swano's diverse and more dynamic sound over the generic Blackwater Park sound any day. At least Dan Swano creates a different sound on every album that seems tailored-fit for the album he's producing, and he keeps compression to a minimum (most of the time). I think he's a fine engineer. Why can't artists use him more, if they want a big Swedish name to back their album.

Put it like this: I see (hear) the problem, but it doesn't bother me nearly as much as you. But a remixed/remastered version of Blackwater Park with a DR of 14 would be really interesting 

From a purely audiophile perspective a higher DR is always better, since it means less processing.