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Albums better heard NOT on vinyl

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JD View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Albums better heard NOT on vinyl
    Posted: August 04 2023 at 10:47
Not really looking for lot of "technobabble" on the mediums, but here are my opening statements.

King Crimson - Starless and Bible Black

Given the extreme dynamics of the music, the subtle drum and guitar parts, I can't even imaging being able to get a copy of this title on LP that would compare to listening to it on CD. Every tick/pop/crackle of the vinyl would burn to my core.


ELP - Welcome Back My Friends (Live)
(and by extension, Tales from Topographic Oceans/Lamb Lies Down/Quadrophenia etc)

Having all the tracks in Lossless Files on a pod player and being able to sit there and let the concert happen un-interrupted couldn't really be achieved with LP's.

What else would make you prefer a version other than vinyl for your listening pleasure?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2023 at 11:19
-I always listen to vinyl out loud from my speakers and I rarely do I care or notice such details. Lossless and such is usually listened to in a headset, and I guess I wouldn't want to listen to the vinyl version instead - in that context. So as long as the LP's are in good shape (which mine are) it's really about how I'm listening, and not what I'm listening to. My original pressing of Starless and Bible Black LP bought second hand sound perfect to me. Just like my 2015-lossless version does whenever playing from my speakers is not an option. 




Edited by Saperlipopette! - August 04 2023 at 12:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2023 at 11:28
Any album that was produced 100% digitally on a computer using software samplers. Like, Kodex I (2002) for example. There is no point in albums like that getting a vinyl release, cause the digital recording quality is not pristine to begin with and it wouldn't benefit from a conversion to analog.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stressed Cheese Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2023 at 12:10
If an album has to be broken up in two because of the limited length of a side, whereas normally music would continue on for the full 40, 50, whatever minutes. Funnily enough, King Gizzard, a band that seems to prefer vinyl heavily (to the point where the digital version of Omnium Gathering is literally a vinyl rip IIRC), makes albums that are worse off on vinyl. There's Nonagon Infinity, which is supposed to be played on loop, Murder of the Universe had its middle suite cut in half and split over 2 sides, PetroDragonic Apocaypse was a bit long for a vinyl album, so I suspect they split it up over 2 LPs (and filled the 4th side with a superfluous bonus track) to increase sound quality. Most of their other albums also flow from one song to the next in their CD/digital versions, so that obviously doesn't work on vinyl either.

Albums that are just long enough that they have to be split up on 4 sides instead of 2, creating very short sides is also a bit silly. And of course anything that was originally a bit too long for an LP, but still released in a single LP format would benefit from not being on vinyl. Something like some of Todd Rundgren's longer albums.

Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Any album that was produced 100% digitally on a computer using software samplers. Like, Kodex I (2002) for example. There is no point in albums like that getting a vinyl release, cause the digital recording quality is not pristine to begin with and it wouldn't benefit from a conversion to analog.

Anything converted from digital to vinyl would be a downgrade, technically (not big enough to not do a vinyl), so anything from the last 40 years, when we started to record digitally, and practically any remaster on vinyl from that period would be worse off. Current LPs are just digital masters printed on vinyl, so strictly speaking there really isn't much reason to get anything from after 1980 or so on LP.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2023 at 12:49

JD !!?? Evil Smile Wink

To be honest, I don't remember I've ever heard any, and if so, it should be because the production was so bad, so it would be 
better to listen to it on CD, as vinyl would be more revealing, and even if the CD would make some jitter.





Edited by David_D - August 04 2023 at 13:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2023 at 13:58

But wait a minute, after the first chok, I now think about that I prefer much to listen to a lot of albums on CD instead of vinyl 
because thanks to my programmable CD player I can skip some tracks or listen to them in another order than the original 
- which I can prefer much with many albums, or otherwise I wouldn't simply be enough fond of them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stressed Cheese Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2023 at 14:20
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


JD !!?? Evil Smile Wink

To be honest, I don't remember I've ever heard any, and if so, it should be because the production was so bad, so it would be 
better to listen to it on CD, as vinyl would be more revealing, and even if the CD would make some jitter.




If anything, a vinyl record would mask bad production more, as long as the record/stylus are in bad enough shape. In reality, it wouldn't really matter probably. Jitter has nothing to do with this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Anders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2023 at 14:25
If there are too many scratches on the LP, of if it runs in the same groove, I would prefer another media for sure. Apart from that, I would probably choose other medias in case of music with very silent moments - so that the LP noise doesn't get in the way. Here I am thinking f.e. of some classical music or several types of electronica.

Otherwise my main concern would be sound quality and the effect it has on the musical experience. If the sound is good, I don't really care if I am listening to a vinyl, a CD, or to online streaming.

When I do buy the vinyl, it is either 1) for sentimental reasons (I do have something of a collector's gene in me), 2) if the album has been remixed and the LP is the only way to get the original mix, 3) for aesthetic reasons (cover art), 4) it allows me to read the lyrics or 5) if I want to support the artist financially.


Edited by The Anders - August 04 2023 at 14:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2023 at 16:33
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


But wait a minute, after the first chok, I now think about that I prefer much to listen to a lot of albums on CD instead of vinyl 
because thanks to my programmable CD player I can skip some tracks or listen to them in another order than the original 
- which I can prefer much with many albums, or otherwise I wouldn't simply be enough fond of them.
YES ! Perfect answer.
I was just thinking of Geoff Downes & New Dance Orchestra - The Light Program.
From the booklet notes:
"The Light Program is a collection of musical pieces which have been discreetly assembled. It is possible to make up your own alternative program, using the track/index facility, which is included on most moden compact disc player"
Can't really do that on vinyl.



Edited by JD - August 04 2023 at 16:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2023 at 16:35
Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

If there are too many scratches on the LP, of if it runs in the same groove, I would prefer another media for sure. Apart from that, I would probably choose other medias in case of music with very silent moments - so that the LP noise doesn't get in the way. Here I am thinking f.e. of some classical music or several types of electronica.

Otherwise my main concern would be sound quality and the effect it has on the musical experience. If the sound is good, I don't really care if I am listening to a vinyl, a CD, or to online streaming.

When I do buy the vinyl, it is either 1) for sentimental reasons (I do have something of a collector's gene in me), 2) if the album has been remixed and the LP is the only way to get the original mix, 3) for aesthetic reasons (cover art), 4) it allows me to read the lyrics or 5) if I want to support the artist financially.
More excellent reasons.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bardberic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2023 at 18:41
I think the whole "everything sounds better on vinyl" thing is a load. I really don't get it. I don't understand why people drop head over heels for this outdated technology (actually I do - it's more about collecting the cover than listening to the music; I know some someone who don't even own a f**king turntable and they still buy vinyl). I'm certainly not willing to pay double to triple the price of a CD for it or 4-5 times the price of a digital download.I mean seriously, I can buy a King Gizzard album on Bandcamp for $8 USD. If I buy a vinyl, we're looking at about $40 USD for THE SAME album from either a local retailer or the band's official online store, with less versatility in digital playback options.

I don't think ANYTHING sounds better on vinyl, anyway (aside from the fact that vinyl is much harder to take care of and STILL gets damages over time, is less versatile and cannot be used in a vehicle, is heavy and hard to transport, cannot directly be uploaded to a computer or phone, etc.). It has a lower potential dynamic range than CD and digital (although the human ear can barely, if even at all, pick up the difference when we reach the maximum DR on any format), and the sound of vinyl depends heavily on your setup and each person will have different preferences. If you're like me and can't afford an expensive setup, vinyl sounds - and I'm going to ruffle a lot of feathers here. I don't care - like utter sh*t. At triple the price I would pay for a format that doesn't sound like sh*t and which won't even allow me to listen on my phone or in the car. Depending on your set up and the amount of wear on the hypothetical CD, either digital download or CD is the way to go. Any bitrate above 320 is unnecessary (although I concede that WAV is the best sounding format, albeit not enough to warrant them larger size - FLAC is a straight up scam). Sure, if you're paying very close attention 24-bit may sound nicer than 16-bit, but it's not noticeable enough to warrant the higher price. Basically, if you want the objectively best sounding format, WAV, 24-bit digital download is the best. But I'll stick with regular CDs and 320 mbps MP3s, thank you.

There is one exception to my dislike of vinyl - poorly mastered digital albums. When a digital album out CD has been brickwalled or just poorly mastered, then vinyl is better because it likely is not AS poorly mastered. It still won't sound good, but it'll be better than the digital version. Regardless I hate this trend of producing digital albums as if their vinyl. It's better than brickwalling it, but you know there's a way to make a god sounding digital album without either brickwalling it nor treating it as if it were vinyl, right.

So my answer? Pretty much most albums released after 1986 sound better NOT on vinyl. And even a lot of stuff before then, too! In theory, that is. Let's be real - 8/10 remasters sound like piss-stained sh*t. Since most well-selling music before 2005 has gotten a sh*tty remaster (except for some very new remasters of initially poorly mastered albums, such as the 2022 Nightwish remastered which actually FIXED the brickwall), I actually prefer the vinyl for a good plurality of anything released before 1986 (and a good minority of albums released after 1997) for which the price of these vinyl will not usually exceed $5-10 USD, if I shop at the right store (which is cheaper than the digital/CD reissues). So the takeaway here? Poorly mastered albums on digital formats are better on vinyl, as are the original vinyl releases for albums that had only s sh*tty remaster on digital. Otherwise, vinyl sucks. Sorry. Of course there's more nuance here than I'm making this out to be with.


Edited by bardberic - August 04 2023 at 19:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote projeKct Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2023 at 19:18
Originally posted by bardberic bardberic wrote:

FLAC is a straight up scam

Could you elaborate on that? I don't see why you say that.

FLAC is the best audio format (and ALAC for Apple users).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2023 at 20:25
ELP - Brain Salad Surgery

only for 2 reasons. the synths on the vinyl version seem to disappear into the background and the CD ( I go for the Sony release) has the flexi disc bonus tracks that were not included on the original LP.

Overwelmingly I now prefer vinyl to CD . I purchased a low end of the market turntable for about £280 and everything now sounds better when using the normal speakers I've used for years. I did buy a new amp but the previous one was knackered. 

However I now rely a lot more on streaming because I am pretty lazy. Hopefully I will never buy another CD, a technology that dramatically failed to live up to its early promise and I now regard as the biggest con/sham of my lifetime. Back in 1979/80 I can remember Tomorrows World demonstrating this new technology and thinking how wonderful. I got sucked in. If you have £20,000 to spend to make it work then cool. Thankfully streaming has now liberated us from this nonsense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2023 at 00:30
I don't think everything sound better on vinyl (ok maybe I do, but I know it's just a preference). Putting on an record is a nice listening ritual that hightens my consentration, my patience and the actual listening experience. I mostly collect LP's because they are esthetically beautiful and I enjoy collecting. In my eyes the jewel case CD design look like cheap and ugly plastic crap, so outside of its musical content it has very little extra value to me. I've ripped all my CD's and placed them in the attic. I love going to record fairs, visit record shops and go crate digging in whichever new city I'm in etc...I don't sit at home buying overpriced albums on Discogs or anything like that. I find fairly priced gems, mostly 1960's, 1970's jazz, and I'm very good at it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Octopus II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2023 at 04:13
I never play any vinyl at all now. I still have a turntable but never use it.

I prefer CD or downloads now. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stressed Cheese Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2023 at 04:58
Originally posted by bardberic bardberic wrote:

I think the whole "everything sounds better on vinyl" thing is a load. I really don't get it. I don't understand why people drop head over heels for this outdated technology (actually I do - it's more about collecting the cover than listening to the music; I know some someone who don't even own a f**king turntable and they still buy vinyl). I'm certainly not willing to pay double to triple the price of a CD for it or 4-5 times the price of a digital download.I mean seriously, I can buy a King Gizzard album on Bandcamp for $8 USD. If I buy a vinyl, we're looking at about $40 USD for THE SAME album from either a local retailer or the band's official online store, with less versatility in digital playback options.

I don't think ANYTHING sounds better on vinyl, anyway (aside from the fact that vinyl is much harder to take care of and STILL gets damages over time, is less versatile and cannot be used in a vehicle, is heavy and hard to transport, cannot directly be uploaded to a computer or phone, etc.). It has a lower potential dynamic range than CD and digital (although the human ear can barely, if even at all, pick up the difference when we reach the maximum DR on any format), and the sound of vinyl depends heavily on your setup and each person will have different preferences. If you're like me and can't afford an expensive setup, vinyl sounds - and I'm going to ruffle a lot of feathers here. I don't care - like utter sh*t. At triple the price I would pay for a format that doesn't sound like sh*t and which won't even allow me to listen on my phone or in the car. Depending on your set up and the amount of wear on the hypothetical CD, either digital download or CD is the way to go. Any bitrate above 320 is unnecessary (although I concede that WAV is the best sounding format, albeit not enough to warrant them larger size - FLAC is a straight up scam). Sure, if you're paying very close attention 24-bit may sound nicer than 16-bit, but it's not noticeable enough to warrant the higher price. Basically, if you want the objectively best sounding format, WAV, 24-bit digital download is the best. But I'll stick with regular CDs and 320 mbps MP3s, thank you.

There is one exception to my dislike of vinyl - poorly mastered digital albums. When a digital album out CD has been brickwalled or just poorly mastered, then vinyl is better because it likely is not AS poorly mastered. It still won't sound good, but it'll be better than the digital version. Regardless I hate this trend of producing digital albums as if their vinyl. It's better than brickwalling it, but you know there's a way to make a god sounding digital album without either brickwalling it nor treating it as if it were vinyl, right.

So my answer? Pretty much most albums released after 1986 sound better NOT on vinyl. And even a lot of stuff before then, too! In theory, that is. Let's be real - 8/10 remasters sound like piss-stained sh*t. Since most well-selling music before 2005 has gotten a sh*tty remaster (except for some very new remasters of initially poorly mastered albums, such as the 2022 Nightwish remastered which actually FIXED the brickwall), I actually prefer the vinyl for a good plurality of anything released before 1986 (and a good minority of albums released after 1997) for which the price of these vinyl will not usually exceed $5-10 USD, if I shop at the right store (which is cheaper than the digital/CD reissues). So the takeaway here? Poorly mastered albums on digital formats are better on vinyl, as are the original vinyl releases for albums that had only s sh*tty remaster on digital. Otherwise, vinyl sucks. Sorry. Of course there's more nuance here than I'm making this out to be with.

People buy vinyl because of the big sleeves (50% of people who buy vinyl don't own a record player, and that's not a statistic I'm pulling out of my ass, that's the reality). But they also buy it because somehow vinyl freaks have successfully spread the myth that vinyl is the superior format to the point where everytime I explain to people that CDs/Digital is better than vinyl, they are legit surprised. There's also a large amount of people who will believe any far-fetched explaination of why vinyl is supposedly better instead of just trusting the basic science behind digital audio we've known for many decades, but that's just the audiophile world in general. A lot of people also don't seem to understand that everything is done digitally these days, so any LP you buy from the last 4 decades has been worked on digitally, and thus is a digital album pressed on vinyl. Not that there can't be differences in the master they use for vinyl or CD/digital (just like how you can use a different master for an SACD compared to a CD to trick people into thinking SACDs are anything but a blatant scam). Making a truly analog recording requires doing the entire process without once converting it to digital along the way, and that's not a thing that happens anymore (unless with very, very specific niche instances).

The biggest reason I still stick with CDs instead of downloads/streaming is because of sh*tty remasters. But you don't need to resort to vinyl for that. For most albums, just find an older CD pressing from the 80's or 90's. I always do some research and use the Dynamic Range DB before I buy anything (sometimes older CDs will have some issues fixed on later remasters, and sometimes new remasters are actually good), and I always use Discogs to ensure I get the exact pressing I need. On Spotify or YT, or when buying stuff from iTunes or what have you, you're 99% of the time stuck with only the most recent remaster, so I don't consider those serious options. Funnily enough, the supposed superiority of vinyl seems a lot more audible to a lot of audiophiles than the difference between a proper and a brickwalled master, which they often seem clueless about.

Originally posted by projeKct projeKct wrote:

Originally posted by bardberic bardberic wrote:

FLAC is a straight up scam

Could you elaborate on that? I don't see why you say that.

FLAC is the best audio format (and ALAC for Apple users).

At a certain point, a lossy file is good enough quality that humans can't hear the difference between that and a lossless file. Or rather, there might be a small minority that can, but it depends on your ears, and your setup/headphones, so it might be worth it to do a blind test to see if you wouldn't be better off saving some drive space and just going for high quality lossy. I think my CD collection would take up like 2x as much space had I ripped it all in FLAC, but with no audible increase in audio quality to make that worth it.


Edited by Stressed Cheese - August 05 2023 at 05:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2023 at 07:51

I also prefer to hear on CD when it's a triple or even a double album with the vinyl sides 10-15 minutes long, and due to 
environmental considerations, especially if it's heavy vinyl release.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Anders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2023 at 07:57
Whether or not one sound format is better than another is largely a matter of taste, an trying to make it an objective thing doesn't really make sense to me.

For me, the basic distinction is between analog and digital. The latter produces less noise, but on the other hand, that can sometimes make the sound more tedious - I recall some "old boys" rock albums from circa 1990 and onward as an example of that. But it also depends on the type of music you are making, and of course on production.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote projeKct Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2023 at 08:28
Originally posted by Stressed Cheese Stressed Cheese wrote:

Originally posted by projeKct projeKct wrote:

Originally posted by bardberic bardberic wrote:

FLAC is a straight up scam

Could you elaborate on that? I don't see why you say that.

FLAC is the best audio format (and ALAC for Apple users).

At a certain point, a lossy file is good enough quality that humans can't hear the difference between that and a lossless file. Or rather, there might be a small minority that can, but it depends on your ears, and your setup/headphones, so it might be worth it to do a blind test to see if you wouldn't be better off saving some drive space and just going for high quality lossy. I think my CD collection would take up like 2x as much space had I ripped it all in FLAC, but with no audible increase in audio quality to make that worth it.

99% of the time, I listen to MP3 files (with highest quality VBR compression) so I agree with you. Very hard to tell the difference under "normal" listening conditions (in the car or at home on a basic sound system).

But I also use FLAC for archiving purpose. I still wonder why bardberic says FLAC is a scam?!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2023 at 12:03

I guess, JD, your intention with this thread was to aim it for the people mostly being into vinyl.
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