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the future of Dutch and German lyrics
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Hrychu View Drop Down
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    Posted: July 22 2023 at 09:18
Hey. Why, do you think, 99.9999% 21th century German and Dutch bands, ESPECIALLY prog, don't have vocals in their native language? Is it the harsh sound of Dutch and German? The unlikable accent? Maybe English is just more attractive (IMO it absolutely isn't). I have no clue tbh. I wish more German and Dutch rock bands would sing in their 1st language, and not English.
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Maybe they play abroad and English is a language most people understand, learn in school.
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I guess it's a general trend in order to get more international success, even this very large percentage could also indicate some 
specific reasons. Anyway, I surely find it to be a pity, as it tends to make all the music (not only the language) more standardized 
and less diverse. 
A good compromise could be to sing some songs in English and some in the native language.





Edited by David_D - July 22 2023 at 11:01
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Maybe they play abroad and English is a language most people understand, learn in school.


This is definitely the case in the Netherlands. Almost everyone here has at least a basic understanding of English and since prog is a niche genre anyway singing in English instead of Dutch is a very safe way to broaden your audience while losing virtually no one.
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Hi,

I'm not sure this is slightly overblown ... there was a band that got really well known, and is still appreciated a lot for their efforts, and no one knew what language the guy sang in ... and it was never an issue. And he is remembered and appreciated like so few folks out there.

Hello Damo Suzuki!

Somehow, I have this feeling in my bones that there are times when singing for a specific audience, in this case, where the money is ... is not the answer ... most of these bands won't last long enough to be remembered or recognized, is my guess, because there simply exist too many of them, and they are not doing anything that is different or special.

I do wish there was more room for the creativity, and not quite the idea that if you can sing in English you can sell more. It just brings me a suggestion that the material/music is simply not good enough. The music has to sing on its own, even with a "singer" .... and I'm not sure this is happening.
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Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Maybe English is just more attractive (IMO it absolutely isn't).
That's because you're not Dutch. I'm not speaking for all Dutch people, but I find it hard to take Dutch vocals seriously. I also can't stand Dutch movies or shows unless they're comedic. I like some Dutch-language songs, but that's more despite of the langauge. I know some other people who feel the same, and know some Germans who don't like their own language that much either.

Of course trying to appeal to markets outside of the Netherlands and Belgium, and the fact that over here, everybody speaks English anyway play a role too. But for me at least, it's not an appealing language at all. Not for music, at least.
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I think they perceive prog as an international thing, they think that they may get noted more abroad if they sing in English, and bands with English vocals are their major influences. There's no shortage of new German language music if you look at other genres. I for sure would happily listen to new German language prog. (And the Dutch can do their thing as well if they want.)
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By the way...
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

A good compromise could be to sing some songs in English and some in the native language.
A fine example of this is the Polish album Cosmopolis (1992) by Brygada Kryzys, and it works very well to me.
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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^ I think most are not even looking for a compromise, and why would they. For the Dutch, and I guess for the Germans too, English is the second language and most speak it rather well. Other than audience reach and commercial reasons, it might also be that writing/singing in English also create a kind of distance and maybe in English we accept silly lyrics a bit easier.

As an example:
"There are nine million bicycles in Beijing
That's a fact
It's a thing we can't deny
Like the fact that I will love you till I die."

In Dutch this would sound utterly ridiculous, in English this - apparently - was very popular... Sleepy

If it was for the beauty of the language everybody would of course sing in Italian or French. Tongue

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Points: 15135 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2023 at 06:39

^ Well, it's meant as a suggestion not only for German and Dutch bands but for other nationalities too, as I see it as a more general problem.
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Most people do not listen to music out of their comfort zone, let alone in a language they do not understand. 
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Hi,

If the music itself ... DOES NOT SING ... it won't matter what language it is on.

PERIOD.

I had no issues to Sadistic Mika Band singing in Japanese.

I had no issues with Amon Duul 2 singing in German.

I had no issue with Banco singing in Italian.

I had no issue with Ange singing in French.

We might as well say that we forgot what "progressive" meant ... and are now bitching because it ain't the format that we think it should be! C'mon, if you want a lollipop go get one in your favorite flavor, but stop telling others their flavor is wrong and should not be licked!


Edited by moshkito - July 23 2023 at 07:08
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It's how a native language is used. While German is a difficult language to put to song at least for non-German speaking ears, there are cases where it works quite well and can be popular.

Industrial metal band Rammstein has enjoyed great success singing exclusively in German.

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David_D View Drop Down
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Points: 15135 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2023 at 11:25
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Most people do not listen to music out of their comfort zone, let alone in a language they do not understand. 

I may doubt if that's true when talking about Prog, but if it is, it would be good in my opinion to appreciate more other cultures. Smile



Edited by David_D - July 23 2023 at 12:58
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

It's how a native language is used. While German is a difficult language to put to song at least for non-German speaking ears, there are cases where it works quite well and can be popular.

Industrial metal band Rammstein has enjoyed great success singing exclusively in German.
...
Hi,

Having been involved in several languages and literature. the one thing that one learns really quick is that translations stink and then some. So, I have seen several translations from the Portuguese original of Camoes famous poem (Alma Minha Gentil) and have read at least 5 translations and they were all awful to my mind, in that the original feeling and flow of the words is simply not there, and an elegant academic translation is not the answer for something that is dramatic and (in modern terms) cinematic! A couple of translations were literal, and they missed the point also.

My dad also did several translations of Shakespeare, two of which are (apparently) still used in Portugal ... I find that weird ... but in comparing the two, I found that he tried hard to make sure that you knew how the character felt ... and that made for a nice translation.

Rock music is tough. We have not "allowed" several cultures to develop these things ... we automatically dismiss ANGE, MONA LISA and some other French folks, and their music is so very much like the emotional material on a lot of their history and arts ... so we still won't bother listening to the Decamps Project, because it is in French, and the music itself is far out.

The idea of the Euro was to facilitate the commerce in Europe between so many nations. The idea of a "common language" had the same idea, with one serious issue here ... the market for the material was in America more than anything else ... if you took America out, no one would be complaining about the different languages, but here, it is a problem ... and the inevitable comment is that folks won't listen to anything out of their comfort zone which is true ... you're not quite going to change the country and western music over here on the West Coast in Oregon and Washington states ... but as soon as you leave Portland, you will rarely hear anything else.


Edited by moshkito - July 23 2023 at 11:56
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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

It's how a native language is used. While German is a difficult language to put to song at least for non-German speaking ears, there are cases where it works quite well and can be popular.

Industrial metal band Rammstein has enjoyed great success singing exclusively in German.

I can enjoy very much German vocals like for instance on Nina Hagen Band's debut (1978).
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David_D View Drop Down
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Points: 15135 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2023 at 06:50

I think the question of liking vocals in various languages is much a matter of being open and getting used to listen to them,
but it might be a good idea to include translations of the lyrics to English - it can be done much easier today.
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English may sound smoother and more familiar in songs than the native language of German or Dutch speaking peoples, so many artists (at least in the prog niche) have adopted it as a language of song. It seems unlikely to me that this is motivated by attempts to reach the Billboard Hot 100. Most Italian prog artists seem to have less problems with singing in their own language. It seems unlikely to me that this is motivated by attempts to reach the Billboard Hot 100.

You can find some rare examples of prog in Dutch in this thread.


Edited by someone_else - July 27 2023 at 03:13
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David_D View Drop Down
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Points: 15135 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 31 2023 at 11:37

Another album with German lyrics, I enjoy very much, is Hölderlins Traum.
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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