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Stressed Cheese View Drop Down
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I never really considered Art Rock a subgenre of Prog Rock or vice versa (and neither does RYM's classifications apparentely), but definitely related. Art Rock to me is kind of like the middle ground between Prog and more pop-oriented rock. Or it's pop-ish rock that has some more sophisticated arrangements or parts, and perhaps is slightly less catchy or dance-able. At least, that's how I classify things in iTunes.

The Alan Parsons Project (after their first two) is what comes to my mind first for Art Rock. There's some Supertramp and 10cc, and albums like A Wizard, A True Star, that I have filed under Art Rock. Something like ITCOTCK I would never describe as Art Rock. But that's me.


Edited by Stressed Cheese - July 10 2023 at 16:26
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^ To a great extent you could maybe say art rock is just a more song oriented form of prog. Instead of focusing on longer tracks with complexity or epics they tend to focus more on "regular" (ie normal) songs. 
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A lot of Bowie and Roxy Music I consider art rock rather than prog.
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Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Aaaaah, good old revisionism. ShockedCryEvil Smile

In my book & youth (I'm from 63), the music I loved throughout the 70's (started buying records in 74 in Toronto & Montreal) was generally called "Art Rock" and everyone I spoke to in High school seemed to know exactly what it was... and it didn't include Roxy, Bowie and other Glam (or Glitter) Rock artistes. And that remained unquestioned throughout most of the 80's  - even when Marillion & IQ poppeed their heads on the airwave (the former mainly). I never heard the expression Neo-prog until much later. 

However, I learned during the mid-90's in Continental Europe that most everyone called that Prog(ressive) Rock, and when I spoke of Art Rock, everyone thought I was crazy to call Yes & Genesis as Hard Rock (I agree, until I corrected the misunderstanding). 

But it's in the 90's that I first heard that some Glam ruck bands  started become identified as Art Rock


.

I heard the term Art Rock back in the 70's but honestly don't remember what it was supposed to reference.

Rocy Music were never Glam Rock though, that was clearly T-Rex, The Sweet and Slade. None of that had anything to do with prog or art. Roxy were a bit of a wild card band and succesfuly existed oustide of the normal trends of the day. I believe they were more important than many will give credit to and arguably by 1975 the best band in the world bar Queen who again were a very different thing coming from hard rock roots and lovers of Uriah Heep (this is true!). Art Rock is basically a more purist thing while by 1975 prog rock had become mainly a formula and style. We could also talk about 10CC but they were clearly a pop group although very arty. Late in the day Radiohead became the most important 'Art rock' band imo.
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Originally posted by Stressed Cheese Stressed Cheese wrote:

I never really considered Art Rock a subgenre of Prog Rock or vice versa (and neither does RYM's classifications apparentely), but definitely related. Art Rock to me is kind of like the middle ground between Prog and more pop-oriented rock. Or it's pop-ish rock that has some more sophisticated arrangements or parts, and perhaps is slightly less catchy or dance-able. At least, that's how I classify things in iTunes.

The Alan Parsons Project (after their first two) is what comes to my mind first for Art Rock. There's some Supertramp and 10cc, and albums like A Wizard, A True Star, that I have filed under Art Rock. Something like ITCOTCK I would never describe as Art Rock. But that's me.

Yes, but 5 decades have passed since ITCOTCK. Back then, it made sense that it was Art Rock... Nowadays, because of revisionism, Art Rock's definition (if there was ever one) has definitely slipped towards glamy stuff (you know bands with heavy make-up and weird stage outfit).
Something tells us that Genesis wasn't aimed at, since only The Gabe dressed up. The rest of the band was probably the worst-dressed on stage and photoshoots. 


Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Aaaaah, good old revisionism. ShockedCryEvil Smile

In my book & youth (I'm from 63), the music I loved throughout the 70's (started buying records in 74 in Toronto & Montreal) was generally called "Art Rock" and everyone I spoke to in High school seemed to know exactly what it was... and it didn't include Roxy, Bowie and other Glam (or Glitter) Rock artistes. And that remained unquestioned throughout most of the 80's  - even when Marillion & IQ poppeed their heads on the airwave (the former mainly). I never heard the expression Neo-prog until much later. 

However, I learned during the mid-90's in Continental Europe that most everyone called that Prog(ressive) Rock, and when I spoke of Art Rock, everyone thought I was crazy to call Yes & Genesis as Hard Rock (I agree, until I corrected the misunderstanding). 

But it's in the 90's that I first heard that some Glam ruck bands  started become identified as Art Rock

I heard the term Art Rock back in the 70's but honestly don't remember what it was supposed to reference.

Rocy Music were never Glam Rock though, that was clearly T-Rex, The Sweet and Slade. None of that had anything to do with prog or art. Roxy were a bit of a wild card band and succesfuly existed oustide of the normal trends of the day. I believe they were more important than many will give credit to and arguably by 1975 the best band in the world bar Queen who again were a very different thing coming from hard rock roots and lovers of Uriah Heep (this is true!). Art Rock is basically a more purist thing while by 1975 prog rock had become mainly a formula and style. We could also talk about 10CC but they were clearly a pop group although very arty. Late in the day Radiohead became the most important 'Art rock' band imo.

TBH, I only consider their first two as "Art/Prog" rock. After Eno left (the guy with the weirdest looks with Manzanera), they became the singer's accompanying band. I see no genius if Brian Ferry, except adapting crooner vocals on rock material. If Manza hadn't done outside projects, we'd probably not even consider the band more than prog-related. Sure Wetton, Jobson, O'List, Gustafson all went by the band for short periods, and Mackay blew winds on other proggier projects, but it's not Avalon, Siren or Country Life that make it "prog". 

Despite the "outrageous" (how relative nowadays LOL) outfits on the back cover of Queen's debut and the openly gay postures of Freddie during the 70's (which he's confirm during the 80's), Queen was to be compared more with 10CC: four british genius songwriters and all singers (well Deacon, not that much) that were incredibly inventive and pushed back the borders of pop/rock music.

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Is "revisionism" regarding genre labels a thing? And if so, what thing is it? I'd just have thought genre labels are dynamic by nature (at least those within which artists could find some breathing space).
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Originally posted by Stressed Cheese Stressed Cheese wrote:

Art Rock to me is kind of like the middle ground between Prog and more pop-oriented rock. 

I think, today, something like that is the best and most practical use of the term...or a kind of middle ground between Prog and plain 
mainstream (Pop-)Rock.



Edited by David_D - July 11 2023 at 04:50
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Originally posted by Stressed Cheese Stressed Cheese wrote:

I never really considered Art Rock a subgenre of Prog Rock or vice versa (and neither does RYM's classifications apparentely), ....

Right, also according to this part of RYM's definition:
"Ever since its beginnings, art rock has shared connections, musical ties and even presents apparent overlaps with Experimental Rock and Progressive Rock (eventually also bearing a relationship with styles like Art Pop, Glam Rock, Krautrock and Jazz-Rock). While art rock strives to find a level of complexity similar to the one present in these two affiliated genres, it generally features a mix of rock music that tends to follow certain Pop-based structures or patterns along with the aforementioned set of eclectic influences and certain degree of complexity and conceptuality, in contrast to the more classical/jazz-mimicking or inspired patterns of prog suites, or the more radical and angular experimental rock."
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Is "revisionism" regarding genre labels a thing? And if so, what thing is it? I'd just have thought genre labels are dynamic by nature (at least those within which artists could find some breathing space).

Good point, that one could also raise to the "post-punk" and "new wave" frontiers or even the "post-bop" subgenre (which was not "born" until decades later). it's all journalism inventions. 

Before the word progressive was used (in Wowie Zowie compilation), that kind of music was first coined as "Underground Rock"
 
Even the modern "Spiritual jazz" label (englobing Kamasi Washington & Shabaka Hutchings) didn't exist back then, but plenty of 60/70's jazz (like McCoy Tyner or Lonnie Liston Smith) is now called that. Yes, some of them used "spiritual" to describe Coltrane's music, but back then, it was either called "Modal Jazz" or even "New Thing" (by Coltrane's label Impulse!).


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Idk if I would call it "revisionism", but yeah, I'm sure there's just more genre names now that 50 years ago, and sometimes genre names are used as umbrella terms as well. Inevitably, then, some albums that were once regarded a certain genre are no longer seen as that as definitions get refined. But I think that's a good thing. There's a world of difference between art rock and prog rock I think, so calling ITCOTCK art rock, while that might've once been the preferred term, just is a bit misleading in 2023. It's the poster child of what we think of as prog rock, after all. But then, there's no one authority on genre names, everybody has a different view of what they consider one or another genre, and some people like to be more specific. So a complete consensus wrt genre names isn't really possible anyway.

Personally, I don't ever use 'symphonic prog' or 'zolo', for instance, when assigning genres to my CD rips, and I don't really know if we really need 'art pop' and 'progressive pop'...'art rock' would suffice there IMO. 'Canterbury Scene' just gets classified as Prog rock as well in my system, though it's definitely a useful sub-genre descriptor (like symphonic prog).
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Originally posted by Stressed Cheese Stressed Cheese wrote:

  There's a world of difference between art rock and prog rock I think, 

I'd have thought they surely overlap, even though there is controversy on how much. But for sure it is possible that something is labelled both prog rock and art rock.
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Well, okay, it's not a huge world of difference, but I'd still say most prog rock or art rock albums aren't really suitable to be classified as both simultaneously, but there will always be edge cases where they're kind of both. Not by today's standards of the terms. Then again, as I already said I don't think there's really a consensus about genres anyway...
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Can anyone name a single album that prog and not art rock? The definition of art rock is to take ordinary rock and roll and make it all different. That pretty much covers anything prog OR experimental.

I doubt if anyone will ever totally agree on these terms but to me art rock is more of an umbrella term without any really specific meaning. Prog, experimental, post-punk etc are much more specific.

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Well that's the thing. It depends on the definition one uses for art rock. I am sure someone will name you an album they think is prog but not art rock but someone else think otherwise.
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Tales From Topographic Oceans is not an art rock album. It doesn't get more prog than that. As I stated before art rock tends to be more song oriented and is more or less synonymous with crossover prog. Yes, that's my opinion but I'm not the only one who thinks that way. I think the more general or broad definition of art rock includes prog but I suppose it depends on what definition you want. 

Although this isn't quite the same thing it sort of reminds me of how metal is now used as an umbrella term that now includes heavy metal. However, heavy metal was the original term to include pretty much anything  that was really heavy. But now heavy metal is the same yet different. So too is art rock the same yet different so it too could be an umbrella term the same way "metal" is now an umbrella term. Confused yet? I am. :P
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^ that's not how most others define art rock.

It's a matter of subsetting.

You wouldn't call Tales a rock album either. You call it prog.

Likewise you wouldn't call it art rock but it still is very arty.

I've played music like that to friends who know nothing about prog.

They called it art rock.

Honestly art rock is any rock that is artistic beyond basic rock and roll.

That was the original definition of it and that makes a great umbrella term.

Progressive rock and all those other terms simply zero in on a more specific definition.

Tales From Topographic Ocean is symphonic prog, it's also progressive rock, it's also art rock, it's also rock.

Interesting article:



Edited by siLLy puPPy - July 11 2023 at 18:38

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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ that's not how most others define art rock.

Likewise you wouldn't call it art rock but it still is very arty.

I've played music like that to friends who know nothing about prog.

They called it art rock.

Honestly art rock is any rock that is artistic beyond basic rock and roll.

That was the original definition of it and that makes a great umbrella term.

Yup

No time to read your linked article, but not sure the VU should be mentioned as we all know Warhol was a total impostor and only a poseur. TongueBig smileLOL


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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Stressed Cheese Stressed Cheese wrote:

Art Rock to me is kind of like the middle ground between Prog and more pop-oriented rock. 
I think, today, something like that is the best and most practical use of the term...or a kind of middle ground between Prog and plain 
mainstream (Pop-)Rock.

and not least for proggers
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Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

A lot of Bowie and Roxy Music I consider art rock rather than prog.


I'd also consider the likes of 10cc, ELO, and Kate Bush to be art rock - i.e. artists on the fringes of the more general prog genre who create a unique sound with intelligent pop/rock crossover songs (crossover in the sense they appeal to a more mainstream music audience).
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Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

A lot of Bowie and Roxy Music I consider art rock rather than prog.


I'd also consider the likes of 10cc, ELO, and Kate Bush to be art rock - i.e. artists on the fringes of the more general prog genre who create a unique sound with intelligent pop/rock crossover songs (crossover in the sense they appeal to a more mainstream music audience).

I would add Queen to that list (and Roxy).

However, I would suggest not bands like Supertramp or Floyd , who despite have mega-hit pop singles, they also have pure-prog epics (Queen has only Rhapsody) , even without tricky time-sigs.


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