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What is art rock? |
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Stressed Cheese 
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 Posted: July 11 2023 at 15:33 |
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Well, okay, it's not a huge world of difference, but I'd still say most prog rock or art rock albums aren't really suitable to be classified as both simultaneously, but there will always be edge cases where they're kind of both. Not by today's standards of the terms. Then again, as I already said I don't think there's really a consensus about genres anyway...
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Lewian
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Posted: July 11 2023 at 10:46 |
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I'd have thought they surely overlap, even though there is controversy on how much. But for sure it is possible that something is labelled both prog rock and art rock.
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Stressed Cheese
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Posted: July 11 2023 at 10:23 |
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Idk if I would call it "revisionism", but yeah, I'm sure there's just more genre names now that 50 years ago, and sometimes genre names are used as umbrella terms as well. Inevitably, then, some albums that were once regarded a certain genre are no longer seen as that as definitions get refined. But I think that's a good thing. There's a world of difference between art rock and prog rock I think, so calling ITCOTCK art rock, while that might've once been the preferred term, just is a bit misleading in 2023. It's the poster child of what we think of as prog rock, after all. But then, there's no one authority on genre names, everybody has a different view of what they consider one or another genre, and some people like to be more specific. So a complete consensus wrt genre names isn't really possible anyway.
Personally, I don't ever use 'symphonic prog' or 'zolo', for instance, when assigning genres to my CD rips, and I don't really know if we really need 'art pop' and 'progressive pop'...'art rock' would suffice there IMO. 'Canterbury Scene' just gets classified as Prog rock as well in my system, though it's definitely a useful sub-genre descriptor (like symphonic prog).
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Sean Trane
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Posted: July 11 2023 at 05:48 |
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Good point, that one could also raise to the "post-punk" and "new wave" frontiers or even the "post-bop" subgenre (which was not "born" until decades later). it's all journalism inventions. Before the word progressive was used (in Wowie Zowie compilation), that kind of music was first coined as "Underground Rock" Even the modern "Spiritual jazz" label (englobing Kamasi Washington & Shabaka Hutchings) didn't exist back then, but plenty of 60/70's jazz (like McCoy Tyner or Lonnie Liston Smith) is now called that. Yes, some of them used "spiritual" to describe Coltrane's music, but back then, it was either called "Modal Jazz" or even "New Thing" (by Coltrane's label Impulse!). . |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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David_D
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Posted: July 11 2023 at 05:21 |
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Right, also according to this part of RYM's definition: "Ever since its beginnings, art rock has shared connections, musical ties and even presents apparent overlaps with Experimental Rock and Progressive Rock (eventually also bearing a relationship with styles like Art Pop, Glam Rock, Krautrock and Jazz-Rock). While art rock strives to find a level of complexity similar to the one present in these two affiliated genres, it generally features a mix of rock music that tends to follow certain Pop-based structures or patterns along with the aforementioned set of eclectic influences and certain degree of complexity and conceptuality, in contrast to the more classical/jazz-mimicking or inspired patterns of prog suites, or the more radical and angular experimental rock." |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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David_D
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Posted: July 11 2023 at 04:35 |
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I think, today, something like that is the best and most practical use of the term...or a kind of middle ground between Prog and plain mainstream (Pop-)Rock. Edited by David_D - July 11 2023 at 04:50 |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Lewian
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Posted: July 11 2023 at 02:57 |
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Is "revisionism" regarding genre labels a thing? And if so, what thing is it? I'd just have thought genre labels are dynamic by nature (at least those within which artists could find some breathing space).
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Sean Trane
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Posted: July 11 2023 at 01:58 |
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Yes, but 5 decades have passed since ITCOTCK. Back then, it made sense that it was Art Rock... Nowadays, because of revisionism, Art Rock's definition (if there was ever one) has definitely slipped towards glamy stuff (you know bands with heavy make-up and weird stage outfit). Something tells us that Genesis wasn't aimed at, since only The Gabe dressed up. The rest of the band was probably the worst-dressed on stage and photoshoots.
TBH, I only consider their first two as "Art/Prog" rock. After Eno left (the guy with the weirdest looks with Manzanera), they became the singer's accompanying band. I see no genius if Brian Ferry, except adapting crooner vocals on rock material. If Manza hadn't done outside projects, we'd probably not even consider the band more than prog-related. Sure Wetton, Jobson, O'List, Gustafson all went by the band for short periods, and Mackay blew winds on other proggier projects, but it's not Avalon, Siren or Country Life that make it "prog". Despite the "outrageous" (how relative nowadays  ) outfits on the back cover of Queen's debut and the openly gay postures of Freddie during the 70's (which he's confirm during the 80's), Queen was to be compared more with 10CC: four british genius songwriters and all singers (well Deacon, not that much) that were incredibly inventive and pushed back the borders of pop/rock music..
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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richardh
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Posted: July 10 2023 at 23:24 |
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I heard the term Art Rock back in the 70's but honestly don't remember what it was supposed to reference. Rocy Music were never Glam Rock though, that was clearly T-Rex, The Sweet and Slade. None of that had anything to do with prog or art. Roxy were a bit of a wild card band and succesfuly existed oustide of the normal trends of the day. I believe they were more important than many will give credit to and arguably by 1975 the best band in the world bar Queen who again were a very different thing coming from hard rock roots and lovers of Uriah Heep (this is true!). Art Rock is basically a more purist thing while by 1975 prog rock had become mainly a formula and style. We could also talk about 10CC but they were clearly a pop group although very arty. Late in the day Radiohead became the most important 'Art rock' band imo.
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: July 10 2023 at 16:40 |
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A lot of Bowie and Roxy Music I consider art rock rather than prog.
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AFlowerKingCrimson
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Posted: July 10 2023 at 16:30 |
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^ To a great extent you could maybe say art rock is just a more song oriented form of prog. Instead of focusing on longer tracks with complexity or epics they tend to focus more on "regular" (ie normal) songs.
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Stressed Cheese
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Posted: July 10 2023 at 16:23 |
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I never really considered Art Rock a subgenre of Prog Rock or vice versa (and neither does RYM's classifications apparentely), but definitely related. Art Rock to me is kind of like the middle ground between Prog and more pop-oriented rock. Or it's pop-ish rock that has some more sophisticated arrangements or parts, and perhaps is slightly less catchy or dance-able. At least, that's how I classify things in iTunes.
The Alan Parsons Project (after their first two) is what comes to my mind first for Art Rock. There's some Supertramp and 10cc, and albums like A Wizard, A True Star, that I have filed under Art Rock. Something like ITCOTCK I would never describe as Art Rock. But that's me.
Edited by Stressed Cheese - July 10 2023 at 16:26 |
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jamesbaldwin
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Posted: July 10 2023 at 15:57 |
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Oh, yes, I totally agree, but.... Tell me, why does Progarchives consider Radiohead crossover prog?
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David_D
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Posted: July 10 2023 at 15:44 |
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^ As far as I can see, Progressive Rock and Art Rock are considered by RYM as two distinct genres with some overlap. The same concerning Art Rock and Experimental Rock, but maybe with less overlap. Edited by David_D - July 10 2023 at 17:15 |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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David_D
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Posted: July 10 2023 at 15:30 |
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The labelling of albums shows how the definitions are interpreted and used. |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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AFlowerKingCrimson
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Posted: July 10 2023 at 10:26 |
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Yep. That definition works too. In a broad sense prog is art rock just like both could still be considered rock.
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moshkito
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Posted: July 10 2023 at 07:04 |
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Hi, With all due respect and abilities to both "styles", it is statements like this that confuse folks and make these definitions more difficult ... I would go so far as to suggest that the person who wrote this, did not listen to music at all, and was not able to determine differences, which ... is a bit more difficult than we think. But generalizing it with a statement that it does not happen in "progressive" or "rock" music, is down right silly and empty.
This is bizarre ... specially as classically minded material (... check The Nice and early ELP and many other European bands that also did classical music) ... is far more complex and intricate than the simplistic rock music idea and design. 4 or 5 tracks of music, will never come closer to 25/30 tracks that a symphony or opera would have ... thus saying that something like "progressive rock" is characterized by something that exists in a lot of music, is not a good description of the music whatsoever ... you learned absolutely nothing from that statement, except maybe acknowledging that you do not know classical music or have heard a lot of stuff that is far more advanced than Chuck Berry!
It might be better said that "art rock" had its development in classical music, specially when you could hear some folks doing classical pieces with their own material, as The Nice did and ELP went on to do Mussorgsky. There is NOTHING experimental or unconventional about this at all ... since it had been at least 100 years since Modest Mussorgsky's piece of music, and it had already been dissected by academia to no end ... there would be absolutely nothing that could be considered "broader range", than what YES did on TFTO and CTTE or JT on PP and TAAB.
Also a poor generalization, since most "art rock" or at least material that is so described, is not exactly "avant-garde" in the proper definition of the term. I think that it became known as "art rock" when it connected with classical music, that we consider "art", while we do not accept that rock music as art at all ... many folks here will stand by the songs, never the art itself. And that might be the real issue ... but that would not quite fit in this discussion. I would be VERY CAREFUL with "these definitions" since many of them can be easily broken down to nothing, and show that the intent and idea behind the comment was not even musical whatsoever. it was more "geek" oriented, trying to show you they know "music" that everyone else, and academia could not possibly know it at all. The terms are badly used ... and a perfect example is the thread about "chamber rock" ... which should be re-defined as "chamber song" since a lot of the material does not even fit into the discussion as to what would be considered "chamber music", which ... would be something more like "unplugged" ... than otherwise. There are some peculiarities here, as Terje Rypdal and other ECM folks have done a lot of "chamber music" electrically, and came off really special ... were it not for folks not wanting to hear "chamber music" ... just "songs". Again, here was a vast difference in the definition of the term, and how it was used, and not specifically cleaned up and explained.
I tend to differ from a couple of PA folks in that, for me, music has been progressive for more than 500 years, with various details from then to what it is now, and I think that we are ignoring the music history and how much it has changed and come forth. Rock music, and most top ten, would not even be considered music 100 years ago, by the classical standards that we learn about in school. Too simple, and not while neat and melodious and interesting, for all intents and purposes its simplicity and brevity, would not meet the standards for what academia has considered "classical music" for the last 500 years.
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siLLy puPPy
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Posted: July 10 2023 at 06:58 |
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^ the labeling system is a bit weird on RYM. If you look at the top albums for avant-prog it will include zeuhl because they consider zeuhl a subset of avant-prog. The labeling can be done by anyone so you can't take the labeling of albums as an absolute but by definition all prog would be considered art rock
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David_D
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Posted: July 10 2023 at 06:10 |
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Only some albums are labelled by RYM as both Progressive Rock and Art Rock. For instance no Yes, Genesis, ELP, Jethro Tull, or other Symphonic Prog or Progressive Folk albums I guess. |
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Sean Trane
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Posted: July 10 2023 at 05:35 |
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Aaaaah, good old revisionism.    In my book & youth (I'm from 63), the music I loved throughout the 70's (started buying records in 74 in Toronto & Montreal) was generally called "Art Rock" and everyone I spoke to in High school seemed to know exactly what it was... and it didn't include Roxy, Bowie and other Glam (or Glitter) Rock artistes. And that remained unquestioned throughout most of the 80's - even when Marillion & IQ poppeed their heads on the airwave (the former mainly). I never heard the expression Neo-prog until much later. However, I learned during the mid-90's in Continental Europe that most everyone called that Prog(ressive) Rock, and when I spoke of Art Rock, everyone thought I was crazy to call Yes & Genesis as Hard Rock (I agree, until I corrected the misunderstanding). But it's in the 90's that I first heard that some Glam ruck bands started become identified as Art Rock .
Edited by Sean Trane - July 10 2023 at 08:10 |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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Stressed Cheese wrote:
![David Bowie - &amp;amp;#9733; [Blackstar], Cover art](https://e.snmc.io/i/300/s/09a90ef81e68ecb30fab9d82d6d8b40c/5978111/David%20Bowie%20-%20%E2%98%85%20%5BBlackstar%5D%2C%20Cover%20art.png "David Bowie - &amp;amp;#9733; [Blackstar], Cover art")
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