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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ That is a weak argument.   Democrats anti-science?   Yeah I don't think so... and as far as Elizabeth Warren goes, I'm betting her move to have certain books removed in schools was rebuffed, as it should've been.

Be clear:  Republicans would rather burn the U.S. down than keep losing elections.   They are, both their politicians & their voters,  a n t i - d e m o c r a t i c.   

So---   if you want to equivocate Democrats with the Psychotic Fascist Party the GOP has become, you go ahead and do that.

The Warren thing was questioning Amazon's searching algorithms because a lot of "snake-oil salesmen" and rubbish conspiracy theory books on a particular health subject during the pandemic were appearing high in the results. She is, after all, big on consumer protections, and rightly so. But anyone with half a brain should know by now that Amazon's search algorithms are dreadful. 

Now that I mentioned what it's about (in vague terms), I suppose an admin should close this topic before the "v"-word rears it's ugly head.
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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ That is a weak argument.   Democrats anti-science?   Yeah I don't think so... and as far as Elizabeth Warren goes, I'm betting her move to have certain books removed in schools was rebuffed, as it should've been.

Be clear:  Republicans would rather burn the U.S. down than keep losing elections.   They are, both their politicians & their voters,  a n t i - d e m o c r a t i c.   

So---   if you want to equivocate Democrats with the Psychotic Fascist Party the GOP has become, you go ahead and do that.




Debate and questioning are integral to the scientific process. If you can’t question it, don’t call it science.  Call it anti-science, call it propaganda, call it indoctrination, call it religion but don’t call it science.  At the beginning of the pandemic the narrative was that covid originated from a bat.  Scientists that didn’t toe the line were targeted.  Their careers were literally on the line for doing their job; science.

Doctors couldn’t treat patients to the best of their abilities for fear of losing their livelihoods.  There were several repurposed drugs that showed effectiveness.  One drug in particular, Ivermectin, was demonized along with any doctor that wanted to prescribe it. A drug that exhibited 60-80% efficacy and is less toxic than Tylenol!

The censorship that was enacted on so called “disinformation” is a direct threat to democracy.  Ironically, a great deal of “disinformation” was proven to be true.   

Democracy cannot exist unless there is freedom of speech in public discourse!


I like what you quoted:

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy

What do you think of junior running for president?  For me, that’s one democrat I’ll back 100%. 

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. see’s past the matrix.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/JfMhP5siqPYZ/
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^ Unfortunately he appears to be completely out of his mind, but I certainly would listen to what he has to say.  I do think Jack & Bobby are probably rolling over in their graves.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Hi,

There was an article somewhere that really spoke a lot about many of these things ... 

It was about the state of education in all the 50 states in America ... and it looked to me that the best educated, were mostly Democratic, and the least educated? Yep ... you got it!

Now you know why some Republicans are getting away with it ... taking advantage of their public and then you get that one guy inventing rules about education and doing the same thing ... and he thinks he is going to run for President!!!! And what is worse? The number of folks that voted for him, and others that might keep him running around an continue with the most uneducated of all rules about anything.
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Cosmic Vibration
[/QUOTE]

Debate and questioning are integral to the scientific process. If you can’t question it, don’t call it science.  Call it anti-science, call it propaganda, call it indoctrination, call it religion but don’t call it science.  At the beginning of the pandemic the narrative was that covid originated from a bat.  Scientists that didn’t toe the line were targeted.  Their careers were literally on the line for doing their job; science.

Doctors couldn’t treat patients to the best of their abilities for fear of losing their livelihoods.  There were several repurposed drugs that showed effectiveness.  One drug in particular, Ivermectin, was demonized along with any doctor that wanted to prescribe it. A drug that exhibited 60-80% efficacy and is less toxic than Tylenol!

The censorship that was enacted on so called “disinformation” is a direct threat to democracy.  Ironically, a great deal of “disinformation” was proven to be true.   

Democracy cannot exist unless there is freedom of speech in public discourse!


I like what you quoted:

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy

What do you think of junior running for president?  For me, that’s one democrat I’ll back 100%. 

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. see’s past the matrix.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/JfMhP5siqPYZ/

[/QUOTE]


Exactly, Cosmic Vibration.  Science hypothesis/theories should always be opened to debate.  Einstein's "General Theory of Relativity" questioned and replaced aspects of Isaac Newton's 200 year-old established theory of gravity.  I agree with everything you said.  

If Robert F. Kennedy Jr. runs for President... I'd vote for him over anyone else in the field.  
That said, I imagine the Democrat Party sabotages Kennedy they way they sabotaged Bernie in 2016. Wink 


Edited by omphaloskepsis - June 19 2023 at 15:53
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^ Pence and Romney aren't freakin' crazy.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ Unfortunately he appears to be completely out of his mind, but I certainly would listen to what he has to say.  I do think Jack & Bobby are probably rolling over in their graves.


I don’t agree, I’d be willing to bet that if Bobby was alive today he’d see past the matrix.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy

That quote applicably describes how people can get caught up in the matrix and how they can begin to see through it.

You must have noticed how in the last 3 years free speech was suppressed.. and you should consider how dangerous it can be.  I’ll say it again.. Democracy cannot exist unless there is freedom of speech in public discourse.

You ought to have noticed how science was turning into a religion.  And how a charismatic cult leader emerged proclaiming, “I am science” – Pope Fauci



Edited by CosmicVibration - June 19 2023 at 20:26
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Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:




Cosmic Vibration

Debate and questioning are integral to the scientific process. If you can’t question it, don’t call it science.  Call it anti-science, call it propaganda, call it indoctrination, call it religion but don’t call it science.  At the beginning of the pandemic the narrative was that covid originated from a bat.  Scientists that didn’t toe the line were targeted.  Their careers were literally on the line for doing their job; science.

Doctors couldn’t treat patients to the best of their abilities for fear of losing their livelihoods.  There were several repurposed drugs that showed effectiveness.  One drug in particular, Ivermectin, was demonized along with any doctor that wanted to prescribe it. A drug that exhibited 60-80% efficacy and is less toxic than Tylenol!

The censorship that was enacted on so called “disinformation” is a direct threat to democracy.  Ironically, a great deal of “disinformation” was proven to be true.   

Democracy cannot exist unless there is freedom of speech in public discourse!


I like what you quoted:

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy

What do you think of junior running for president?  For me, that’s one democrat I’ll back 100%. 

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. see’s past the matrix.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/JfMhP5siqPYZ/

[/QUOTE]


Exactly, Cosmic Vibration.  Science hypothesis/theories should always be opened to debate.  Einstein's "General Theory of Relativity" questioned and replaced aspects of Isaac Newton's 200 year-old established theory of gravity.  I agree with everything you said.  

If Robert F. Kennedy Jr. runs for President... I'd vote for him over anyone else in the field.  
That said, I imagine the Democrat Party sabotages Kennedy they way they sabotaged Bernie in 2016. Wink 
[/QUOTE]

I think some within the Democratic party will consider all forms of sabotage, including the unthinkable; again.
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Originally posted by CosmicVibration CosmicVibration wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ Unfortunately he appears to be completely out of his mind, but I certainly would listen to what he has to say.  I do think Jack & Bobby are probably rolling over in their graves.
I don’t agree, I’d be willing to bet that if Bobby was alive today he’d see past the matrix.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy

That quote applicably describes how people can get caught up in the matrix and how they can begin to see through it.You must have noticed how in the last 3 years free speech was suppressed.. and you should consider how dangerous it can be.  I’ll say it again.. Democracy cannot exist unless there is freedom of speech in public discourse.You ought to have noticed how science was turning into a religion.  And how a charismatic cult leader emerged proclaiming, “I am science” – Pope Fauci


Freedom of speech is great.  Freedom of action, not so much.  When "freedom lovers" who don't want to "get caught up in the matrix" begin to get caught up in a matrix of their own making, they've lost me.  Anarchy is overrated.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Originally posted by CosmicVibration CosmicVibration wrote:

The censorship that was enacted on so called “disinformation” is a direct threat to democracy.  Ironically, a great deal of “disinformation” was proven to be true.   

Democracy cannot exist unless there is freedom of speech in public discourse!

These are quite interesting statements. Regarding the second one ("a great deal of “disinformation” was proven to be true"), I guess this is more a hunch than based on (statistical) research. (What percentage of what was labelled as "disinformation" was proven not to be that, what percentage was proven exactly to be that; what authority labels something as disinformation and how much of that labelling is merely based on opinion, etc. etc.?)
Actually, a lot of disinformation emerges as a hunch taken as a fact. My hunch is that most of what was labelled as disinformation was exactly that (unless it was Trump & co. who labelled it).

The first and third statements are  - from my very European viewpoint - a typical US American stance, compared to the dominating European take on things (both regarding media and legislation). Now, my hunch is that it is even more a right wing/libertarian stance, than necessarily a general US American stance, but I'll leave that to you, USAns, to dicsuss that amongst you, because - as said - this is just my hunch and not based on facts.

That "democracy cannot exist unless there is freedom of speech in public discourse", and I understand that you mean absolute freedom, is exactly what makes the US democracy so weak and vulnerable. In my opinion, if it means to allow the freedom of deliberately misinforming the public, you are just undermining democracy.
In Europe, public discourse is much more regulated than in the US of A, and I'm very glad it is: media and politicians can get trialed before justice or before other regulatory institutions if they are deliberately misleading the public. That, in my view, is an important safeguard for democracy. (Note: in French we would use the word "garde-fou", literally meaning "keep/save from the mad"). What you call "censorship", we call that "regulation". It would be censorship if this regulation would go beyond the legislative and regulatory frameworks.

Another point from your posts, regarding the "matrix": you'll have to define what it is to give it some coherent meaning. To me, it is a film trilogy; otherwise it is just like God: it only exists if you believe in it.



Edited by suitkees - June 20 2023 at 03:35

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@suitkees: It has to be admitted though that the discussion about freedom of speech and censorship is very much alive in Europe, too. In many countries movements and parties get into government, or at least attract plenty of votes, by stylising themselves as victims of censorship (which in many cases doesn't mean they were actually censored but rather that strong disagreement was voiced). Very popular in particular is it to say "I say XXX now, and look what a hero I am, as we're actually not allowed to say XXX anymore". Which you then can strangely find all over the place despite the supposed censorship.
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Why does this (discussion) make me smile cringe so hard?
“On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.”
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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Another point from your posts, regarding the "matrix": you'll have to define what it is to give it some coherent meaning. To me, it is a film trilogy; otherwise it is just like God: it only exists if you believe in it.

You are wrong! How can you be wrong about such a serious issue? It is a film quadrology now! I cannot stress how important this issue is. Now, I'm mad!!! Angry (Well, I guess I'm mad, but not in that sense. LOL)
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^ Oh, dammit. LOL
I think I even made this mistake before. I must be in denial: how is it possible that after two mediocre sequels there is even a fourth installment? Tell me it's bad!

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^

Big smile

I actually enjoyed it more than the 2nd and the 3rd. Yet, it would be best if the original remained the only one.
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

@suitkees: It has to be admitted though that the discussion about freedom of speech and censorship is very much alive in Europe, too. In many countries movements and parties get into government, or at least attract plenty of votes, by stylising themselves as victims of censorship (which in many cases doesn't mean they were actually censored but rather that strong disagreement was voiced). Very popular in particular is it to say "I say XXX now, and look what a hero I am, as we're actually not allowed to say XXX anymore". Which you then can strangely find all over the place despite the supposed censorship.

Oh, yes, definitely. But it is normal that rules and regulations get tested and sometimes stretched. The law is always one step (at least) behind the evolution of society. And, of course, legislation and regulation doesn't exclude lies and disinformation from existing, but they can be and are combated through legal means, which in Europe are much more developed than in the USA, where the sacrosanct freedom of speech is undermining democracy, in my opinion.

Here in France we have our own version of Rupert Murdoch, called Vincent Bolloré, who is trying to have his own Fox News-like disinformation channel, but he has been condemned several times to more or less important fines and is risking to loose his broadcasting license if he continues that way. I think a Democracy needs this kind of safeguards to ensure a decent living-together society and not the egoistic society (my own freedom is more important than the freedom of the community) that is prevalent in the USA.

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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by CosmicVibration CosmicVibration wrote:

The censorship that was enacted on so called “disinformation” is a direct threat to democracy.  Ironically, a great deal of “disinformation” was proven to be true.   

Democracy cannot exist unless there is freedom of speech in public discourse!

These are quite interesting statements. Regarding the second one ("a great deal of “disinformation” was proven to be true"), I guess this is more a hunch than based on (statistical) research. (What percentage of what was labelled as "disinformation" was proven not to be that, what percentage was proven exactly to be that; what authority labels something as disinformation and how much of that labelling is merely based on opinion, etc. etc.?)
Actually, a lot of disinformation emerges as a hunch taken as a fact. My hunch is that most of what was labelled as disinformation was exactly that (unless it was Trump & co. who labelled it).

The first and third statements are  - from my very European viewpoint - a typical US American stance, compared to the dominating European take on things (both regarding media and legislation). Now, my hunch is that it is even more a right wing/libertarian stance, than necessarily a general US American stance, but I'll leave that to you, USAns, to dicsuss that amongst you, because - as said - this is just my hunch and not based on facts.

That "democracy cannot exist unless there is freedom of speech in public discourse", and I understand that you mean absolute freedom, is exactly what makes the US democracy so weak and vulnerable. In my opinion, if it means to allow the freedom of deliberately misinforming the public, you are just undermining democracy.
In Europe, public discourse is much more regulated than in the US of A, and I'm very glad it is: media and politicians can get trialed before justice or before other regulatory institutions if they are deliberately misleading the public. That, in my view, is an important safeguard for democracy. (Note: in French we would use the word "garde-fou", literally meaning "keep/save from the mad"). What you call "censorship", we call that "regulation". It would be censorship if this regulation would go beyond the legislative and regulatory frameworks.

Another point from your posts, regarding the "matrix": you'll have to define what it is to give it some coherent meaning. To me, it is a film trilogy; otherwise it is just like God: it only exists if you believe in it.


There are many instants where the disinformation ended up being true. Here are three. 
1. Folks censored for claiming that Vaccines would NOT prevent Covid.   They were right. That's been proven.  Millions of people who got the vaccine also contracted Covid.  President Biden claimed you cannot get Covid if you get a vaccine. 
2. Folks censored for claiming that Masks would not prevent Covid.  They were right again.  Fauci flip-flopped on this issue several times. 
3. People claimed Hunter Laptop was the real deal.  The Government claimed Hunter's laptop was a Russian disinformation operation and not real   The government lied and the folks who claimed Hunter Laptop was real...were right. Even the FBI admits it now. Hunter Biden admits it.  See Elon Musk Twitter File releases for more proof of Censorship of people who went against approved narrative. 
I could name many other instances where disinformation was not disinformation. The scary thing? The attacks on disinformation were actually the disinformation. Wink






Edited by omphaloskepsis - June 20 2023 at 08:43
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Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:


There are many instants where the disinformation ended up being true. Here are three. 
1. Folks censored for claiming that Vaccines would NOT prevent Covid.   They were right. That's been proven.  Millions of people who got the vaccine also contracted Covid.  President Biden claimed you cannot get Covid if you get a vaccine. 
2. Folks censored for claiming that Masks would not prevent Covid.  They were right again.  Fauci flip-flopped on this issue several times. 

Scientific statements were only ever about probabilities. It was always clear that being vaccinated and wearing a mask wouldn't make it impossible to contract Covid. It would only ever make sense to claim that they would reduce the probability that you get it (and that, if you get it, it would on average be weaker).

I find it hard to believe that anybody would be censored for saying what to any scientist would be crystal clear. For sure not in Europe. (The "crystal clear" here meaning that only probability statements could be made; of course some people would challenge that the probability would even drop, but that's another discussion.)
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Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by CosmicVibration CosmicVibration wrote:

The censorship that was enacted on so called “disinformation” is a direct threat to democracy.  Ironically, a great deal of “disinformation” was proven to be true.   

Democracy cannot exist unless there is freedom of speech in public discourse!

These are quite interesting statements. Regarding the second one ("a great deal of “disinformation” was proven to be true"), I guess this is more a hunch than based on (statistical) research. (What percentage of what was labelled as "disinformation" was proven not to be that, what percentage was proven exactly to be that; what authority labels something as disinformation and how much of that labelling is merely based on opinion, etc. etc.?)
Actually, a lot of disinformation emerges as a hunch taken as a fact. My hunch is that most of what was labelled as disinformation was exactly that (unless it was Trump & co. who labelled it).

<snip>

There are many instants where the disinformation ended up being true. Here are three. 
1. Folks censored for claiming that Vaccines would NOT prevent Covid.   They were right. That's been proven.  Millions of people who got the vaccine also contracted Covid.  President Biden claimed you cannot get Covid if you get a vaccine. 
2. Folks censored for claiming that Masks would not prevent Covid.  They were right again.  Fauci flip-flopped on this issue several times. 
3. People claimed Hunter Laptop was the real deal.  The Government claimed Hunter's laptop was a Russian disinformation operation and not real   The government lied and the folks who claimed Hunter Laptop was real...were right. Even the FBI admits it now. Hunter Biden admits it.  See Elon Musk Twitter File releases for more proof of Censorship of people who went against approved narrative. 
I could name many other instances where disinformation was not disinformation. The scary thing? The attacks on disinformation were actually the disinformation. Wink

This is exactly what I was not asking for: (statistical) research is not about just giving a couple of examples, as you did here. Three - disputable - examples (and I don't doubt you have a couple of others) out of the probably hundreds of thousands of disinformation occurrences is a rather weak sample to base a hypothesis on, but it seems to suffice to you. Remember that Trump alone made more than 30.000 false or misleading statements during his four year reign (and this is fact-checked).
Giving examples is not the same as giving research results. This makes your conclusion rather void.

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