Ratings of Bruce Springsteen & Radiohead albums

^ Absolutely with Pink Floyd. It has sold huge numbers of albums, been popular in the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, and is still very popular amongst different ages. It is of course popular with albums and individual songs and is a staple of classic rock radio -- I heard Pink Floyd far more on the radio than Springsteen for instance. It's an iconic band. And it's still culturally relevant and gets referenced in different media regularly. When I was staying at a hotel with Waters also there last decade, word got out where he was staying, and there were so many young people outside the entrance of the hotel in their Pink Floyd shirts (not Waters shirts).

Say to the average person who says they like Pink Floyd, "Oh, so you're into Prog!" and I would not be surprised if one got a weird look. Some of those kids with the Dark Side of the Moon shirts of course like the iconic design. I used to like to draw that cover in some classes instead of focusing on the subject, but then I loved the album, and The Wall and Wish You Were Here etc. when I was a teenager.

It's hardly just a Prog phenomenon. I have no idea how many of those who know Pink Floyd think of it as Prog. I didn't even when I become aware of Prog as a thing (I associated Prog with Yes and ELP). It transcends genre. It's popular with the kids who are into psych kinds of music (and psych and related is popular at RateYourMusic), older dudes, to those into art rock and classic rock, and just into music. And it shares a lot of fanbase with Radiohead. They are very similar in various ways, so that's all the more reason why I could see a site which has many Radiohead fans rating their albums also rating Pink Floyd albums.

Good point about the logic of it, I focused on the logic being the input/output process, that if the algorithm sufficiently represents the ratings for the ranking in a sensible and reliable way, then it's logical, but actually the logic goes a lot deeper than that. To understand the logic requires understanding how things work there and knowing something about what music is popular and has been since RYM started amongst the kinds of communities and individuals they have there. As a determinist especially (A causes B causes C etc.). Alien thinking to me. I wonder what Hari Seldon, who "develops psychohistory, an algorithmic science that allows him to predict the future in probabilistic terms" would think? It's important to be aware of one's own biases and particular cultural/ environmental conditioning.

Here is the Season 3 trailer of Westworld:



I hear that music and still gives me a thrills after all these years. By the way, since you mentioned Lou Reed, for the season four Westworld trailer, they used Lou Reed's Just a Perfect Day which is so perfect (preferred that trailer and season to season three). And for one of the most iconic scenes in Westworld's season one they used Paint it Black by the Stones. They used Radiohead multiple times. I'm a Westworld fanboy even if I preferred some seasons to others.

Edited by Logan - June 02 2023 at 09:50

Lewian wrote: Radiohead - they're great. Lorenzo has made me appreciate Springsteen's live attitude, and I really like some of his live videos. Also he wrote Because The Night and some of the songs Manfred Mann's Earth Band has done versions of that I really love. Still Springsteen's studio material, as far as I took the time to listen to it, has never convinced me. Nice polemic by the way by Saperlipopette! I can identify with much of it.

Oh damn. Was typing on my phone while waiting for someone and my browser crashed. I was just on my last words when it happened. Maybe it was saying to me, enough is enough you fatuous smelly windbag. No wonder one must be brave to use the Brave browser. In the future I’ll not use this for posting and use Safari on my phone instead. Sketchy browser as someone said here not long ago but good for blocking ads on my iPhone. On android I love Ublock Origin but I recently got an iPhone.

Thanks for pointing that info out. I actually realized later that I likely had misinterpreted, my fault not the translation program, the message and that that limit of two per artist was just imposed on the contributor. It’s based on curated lists from a limited number of people. A very different process to RYM as those contributors who present lists will be more calculating, whereas the RYM program is the much more calculating one by just using an algorithm to calculate the ranking based on the ratings across the database of huge numbers of users. That’s much more impersonal.

I do prefer the way the Cannes film festival awards work compared to say the US academy awards for best pictures etc. Too many people who vote for things in the academy haven’t even seen the films. I like the shortlist, then Jury chooses between them based on a limited number of films that they all watch and discuss. I have huge issues with best if lists generally, but at least I know that they have all considered that shortlist and seen them. Of course has more prized like audience etc.

As to reviewing, various reviewers prefer to review lesser known, little reviewed albums, and that is what I would do — To bring attention to ones I think others will like and I really like. I don’t really care much about the ranking, you seem to try make more of a science of your ratings than I would, we have have very different ideas and approaches on that, and I’m more interested in albums at PA outside the top 100. I better finish this up before it crashes again.

Anyway, I find interest in the more thought curated lists from limited numbers who contribute and lists that are statistically calculated based on large numbers just rating things.

jamesbaldwin wrote: In his golden age (1972-1988) Springsteen never had a good producer. And he has always conceived his albums around a precise theme. This created a song selection that often had little to do with their music quality. Springsteen's approach, in short, is much more narrative, much more folk than rock, even when he wrote rock songs. Lyrics, in short, are essential to understanding his art. His studio albums have never approached the performance of his live shows (just compare Because the night studio version with live version). For a prog fan, I think his best albums are The Wild and Born To Run. PS Nice Polemic? Really?

Logan wrote: Say to the average person who says they like Pink Floyd, "Oh, so you're into Prog!" and I would not be surprised if one got a weird look. Some of those kids with the Dark Side of the Moon shirts of course like the iconic design. I used to like to draw that cover in some classes instead of focusing on the subject, but then I loved the album, and The Wall and Wish You Were Here etc. when I was a teenager. It's hardly just a Prog phenomenon. I have no idea how many of those who know Pink Floyd think of it as Prog. I didn't even when I become aware of Prog as a thing (I associated Prog with Yes and ELP). It transcends genre. It's popular with the kids who are into psych kinds of music (and psych and related is popular at RateYourMusic), older dudes, to those into art rock and classic rock, and just into music. And it shares a lot of fanbase with Radiohead. They are very similar in various ways, so that's all the more reason why I could see a site which has many Radiohead fans rating their albums also rating Pink Floyd albums.

Ok. So this statement of mine is false because italian prog is placed higher up on the top 100 at PA

Saperlipopette! wrote: Italian prog is cherised both at PA and RYM. You will notice when you compare the latter place' prog chart with PA's chart.

Btw, I'm done interacting with you. It's the best for both of us.

Lorenzo, we interpret the data/ results so differently, come to such different conclusions, and infer so differently that coming to a consensus does not seem at all likely. And I share Saperlipopette's perspectives (and Stressed Cheese...). These things can be frustrating, but we should try to keep it civil and, as much as possible, to invoke the principle of charity which means putting the other's argument in the strongest form if,, and that is a big IF, possible (steelmanning). It's more important to try to find the truth than to try to win an argument, and that can take humility and an open-mind, just not so open that your brains fall out. I prefer dialectic to debate. Okay, that might seem like I'm on my soapbox, and might sound preachy, but I believe in the principles. Sometimes people just make claims that seem hyperbolic and unjustifiable no matter, and keep repeating the same kinds of things seemingly without taking into account or understanding why others take issue.

I agree with Saper... on these issues, and understand frustration, and do feel like we are going in circles, but I have been pleased that despite our major differences in interpretation and inference of the data, Lorenzo and I have kept it cool and civil. I like both of you on a personal level in ways, Sap has been a major influencer on my interests (very indebted), which might make a difference in how I interact with you both. I have not been on friendly terms then I am harsher.

jamesbaldwin wrote: Now, if I think about RYM, especially the 80s, and see that Rem and U2 have their well-rated albums respectively above the 1000 and above the 2000 position on the ALL time chart, I think, what consideration should we give these artists ? Rem and U2: you can like them or not like them. But they are artists. They weren't just a commercial phenomenon. And according to RYM they would just be bands that have had great success producing bad music.

This conclusion "according to RYM they would just be bands that have had great success producing bad music" especially after all the discussion we've been through is bizarre to me. And I think you are not seeing the forest for the trees, so to speak.

Forget about the chart for a minute (which I believe you make the wrong inferences from and cone to very dubious conclusions), look at the ratings themselves and ask yourself, would I come to the same the same conclusion based on those alone? -- https://rateyourmusic.com/artist/u2

The Joshua Tree at 3.71, 17,176 ratings
Achtung Baby 3.71, 11,876 ratings
War at 3.67 and 10,860
The Unforgettable Fire at 3.60 and 7,538 etc.

That is a high average rating and considerable ratings. 17, 176. It has ten albums each that have more ratings than the top ranked album at PA. I think you are interpreting the chart data in a way that misleads you and draws you to the wrong conclusions. You are acting is they de-value it because other artists have higher ranked albums in the chart, and that does not make sense to me.

Earlier you said that artists were practically being ignored, and I showed you the high ratings and many ratings for their albums and said something to the effect of just because various others rank higher and are more rated hardly makes those ignored by users (many users). Many raters do hold those Italian album in high regard, and having gone through the top 5000 or so, getting anywhere in there can be considre3d an accomplishment. Look deeper at the numbers, no just the rankings. I do think your biases are getting in the way and that you have been doubling-down on your opinions.

Lewian is a statistician if I remember correctly (and yes, my memory is getting really bad, I forgot before how bad it can be), so he might have a more interesting take on this than I or you when it comes to fair inference based on the data.

Edited to clean this post up a bit and clarify, hopefully. This all does feel muddled and muddy and not moving forward as much as we all may like.

Edited by Logan - June 03 2023 at 15:38

^ I don't like to offend people. I do lose my cool sometimes. This stuff can really annoy me, but at the same time if I didn't kind of enjoy it, I wouldn't engage because I am no masochist (even if a little SM can be fun with the right mistresses). I try to take it in humour often. My problem is that because I do not like to offend I am not as direct as I would like and as is practical. That can make me come across as passive-aggressive which may be why I have been threatened with violence on various occasions. Diplomacy is not always the best way to get results, and pussy-footing around the issues can be a waste of everybody's time. It's finding the right balance. Life is short so patience have its limits. Now my wife is shouting at me to get down to cleaning the house which I said I would start on half an hour ago.

@Greg

Edited by jamesbaldwin - June 03 2023 at 18:39

^ Well, that all seems very fair to me. Of course he can disagree as much as he wants, and believe that pigs can fly, faeries exist, elephants are pink and all sorts of eccentric and dubious views. As can I, well in a sense I can, I don't think I could do it and actually believe that stuff if I decided to now.
Stressed Cheese had said that the algorithm is kept mum due to potential abuse when it would come to manipulating the charts. Or perhaps it is all a conspiracy to suppress the knowledge of Springsteen's greatness and thus diminish his awesome potential powers of global music persuasion. Just kidding of course.. More likely Bowie put RYM in his will with the condition that they would receive much of his estate if he was promised higher album rankings than his old nemesis Bruce. ;)

I really don't take charts that seriously, not nearly as seriously as it seems Lorenzo does (nor rating), but I have felt in the past and in this thread that he has been very unfair in his assertions. The utility of the charts for me is how customisable they are, and that has helped me to discover music, and it has been for entertainment for coming up with polls. I thought you might have an idea if his claims follow the statistical evidence well and seem valid, but then we all can have opinions on that. It' not just you a s statistician but as an intelligent person with whom I have had interesting and enjoyable conversations that have changed my thinking on various matters, even if those changes were very temporary. ;)

^^ I believe that a 3.71 average is very respectable average rating, and that the ranking is also very respectable (higher than the vast majority of albums in RYM). Just because many albums by different artist are ranked higher does not negate that I believe that in all of your examples that I can think of that the artists had good ratings. I do not agree with your conclusion and inferences, nor the way you put it, such as "according to RYM they would just be bands that have had great success producing bad music" and "Some famous artists such as Pink Floyd, David Bowie, Radiohead are very pumped up, other famous artists with a big commercial impact on the other hand are almost ignored: Rolling Stones, The Who, Springsteen, Michael Jackson, Dire Straits, U2, REM, Oasis, Coldplay" and so on, and like Stressed Cheese it lead me to understand that you don't really understand RYM. And I think your biases are blinkering you.

RYM has 1,653,090 Artists, 5,604,651 Releases, 116,516,341 Ratings, 2,980,245 Ratings. Something to consider for perspective.

I honestly don't know to continue with this because I just can't get grok where you are coming from, we have such different senses of perspective when it comes to this, and you don't seem to be able to grok things from my perspective. I've tried my best to explain my perspective and offer my insights on this and to understand and appreciate your take, but I guess your angle and conclusions are just not resonating with me at all. I don't think anything more to add beyond what I have said in this and various other topics with you or beyond what others have said in response to you.

Maybe you and Stressed Cheese will come to some understanding. I feel like my cheese is well stressed now and getting stretched to the breaking point.

Edited by Logan - June 03 2023 at 19:24