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Most Overrated Band of the 'Big Six'
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Poll Question: Who is the most overrated band of the 'Big Six'?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
73 [35.96%]
26 [12.81%]
28 [13.79%]
20 [9.85%]
37 [18.23%]
19 [9.36%]
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jamesbaldwin View Drop Down
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Van der Graaf Generator is a cult band.

Vdgg disbanded in 1971, after Pawn Hearts, so the band was absent in the most important years of prog: 1972, 1973, 1974.

They were most successful in Italy.

When the band returned to the scene, they did not propose anything particularly new and remained a cult band. Basically it remained Peter Hammill's band, a cult artist who has been totally out of the spotlight since the 1980s.
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

But it’s a clear enough indication that in the real world VdGG is still an obscure band, that very few know about.
 
Up until I started to get onto the internet, I thought of Van der Graaf Generator as an obscure band. When I was offered to purchase the "AllMusic Guide to Rock Music" book during the mid-to-late '90s, I checked for a Van der Graaf Generator entry, regarding that as a test of comprehensiveness (it passed, so I purchased it).
 
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^ They knew how to market themselves and for that they will forever pay a price.
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I think the point you're trying to make is ELP was far more popular to the masses in progs peak. For example I never heard of Van Der Graf Generator until relatively recently, granted I am young but ELP was one of the first pog bands I ever heard of.
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I love VdGG so much more than ELP that it's not even funny. But the former band's popularity on PA is in no way reflected on their Monthly Listeners on Spotify - which is where most people consume music nowadays (not me though. I just like looking at numbers).

1 Yes - 3 639 156*
2 Genesis - 7 465 831**
3 Jethro Tull - 2 622 139
4 Pink Floyd - 19 315 019
5 King Crimson - 984 198
6 Van Der Graaf Generator - 56 086
7 PFM - 120 029
8 Rush - 4 067 311
9 Camel - 362 137
10 Wobbler - 10 971
11 Änglagård - (not on Spotify)
12 Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso - 39 018
13 Gentle Giant - 193 051
.
.
.

32 ELP - 883 974

-so If the Big Six is supposed to consist of the six biggest and most important first generation UK prog acts, I think ELP belongs among them. I can’t see that they got any serious contenders, as «being big» is partly just a popularity contest. These numbers doesn’t tell the full story. I know. But it’s a clear enough indication that in the real world VdGG is still an obscure band, that very few know about.

*Owner of a Lonely Heart has the same amount of plays alone as Yes' nine following top songs has combined.
**Only the mainstream version of Genesis is represented in top songs. 1970-1980 or prog era-Genesis would end up closer to King Crimson in monthly listeners.



Edited by Saperlipopette! - May 01 2023 at 00:18
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Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

^ Later in the thread, I also made lists based on top two albums, top three albums, and top four albums, in which Van der Graaf Generator are in the top six.
 


Even in this one Vdgg are in the top 6.

Now the ranking for 1 album is

1) Yes
2)Genesis
3) Pink Floyd
4) King Crimson
5) Jethro Tull
6) VdGG

----

7) Camel
8) PFM
9) Rush
10) Banco
11) Anglagard
12) Zappa
13) Gentle Giant
14) Davis
15) Harmonium
16) Wobbler
17) Mahavishnu Orchestra
18) Caravan
19) Renaissance
20) Supertamp
21) Dream Theater
22) Museo Rosenbach
23) Steven Wilson
24) Hammill
25) Oldfield
26) Porcupine Tree
27) Opeth
28) Magma
29) Wyatt
30) Return to forever




Sure VDGG is more popular Than ELP among Prog Archive folk...as far as album ratings are concerned.  In the 1970s, ELP sold out places like Madison Square Garden multiple nights in a row.  Whereas, VDGG played one USA show before Nearfest 2009.   I don't even know what point I'm making.  Maybe, "My, how times have changed."  
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Points: 5988 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2023 at 17:58
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

^ Later in the thread, I also made lists based on top two albums, top three albums, and top four albums, in which Van der Graaf Generator are in the top six.
 


Even in this one Vdgg are in the top 6.

Now the ranking for 1 album is

1) Yes
2)Genesis
3) Pink Floyd
4) King Crimson
5) Jethro Tull
6) VdGG

----

7) Camel
8) PFM
9) Rush
10) Banco
11) Anglagard
12) Zappa
13) Gentle Giant
14) Davis
15) Harmonium
16) Wobbler
17) Mahavishnu Orchestra
18) Caravan
19) Renaissance
20) Supertamp
21) Dream Theater
22) Museo Rosenbach
23) Steven Wilson
24) Hammill
25) Oldfield
26) Porcupine Tree
27) Opeth
28) Magma
29) Wyatt
30) Return to forever
Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Points: 4780 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2023 at 17:19
^ Later in the thread, I also made lists based on top two albums, top three albums, and top four albums, in which Van der Graaf Generator are in the top six.
 
No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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jamesbaldwin View Drop Down
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Points: 5988 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2023 at 17:01
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Based on the PA rating of the artist's highest rated studio album, the current top 54 artists are:

01: Yes
02: Genesis
03: Jethro Tull
04: Pink Floyd
05: King Crimson
06: Van Der Graaf Generator
07: Premiata Forneria Marconi (PFM)
08: Rush
09: Camel
10: Wobbler
11: Änglagård
12: Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso
13: Gentle Giant
14: Miles Davis
15: Harmonium
16: Frank Zappa
17: Mahavishnu Orchestra
18: Supertramp
19: Opeth
20: Mike Oldfield
21: Steven Wilson
22: Renaissance
23: Dream Theater
24: Magma
25: Bacamarte
26: Peter Hammill
27: Museo Rosenbach
28: Caravan
29: Robert Wyatt
30: Riverside
31: Porcupine Tree
32: Emerson Lake & Palmer
33: Hatfield And The North
34: Khan
35: Billy Cobham
36: Focus
37: Tangerine Dream
38: IQ
39: Area
40: Marillion
41: Return To Forever
42: Gong
43: Bubu
44: Steve Hackett
45: Queensrÿche
46: Pain Of Salvation
47: Le Orme
48: Tool
49: Henry Cow
50: Al Di Meola
51: Kansas
52: The Soft Machine
53: Santana
54: Birds And Buildings

 

 


Here in the beginning of 2018, 
Now a lot of things have changed....


Edited by jamesbaldwin - April 30 2023 at 17:02
Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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jamesbaldwin View Drop Down
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Points: 5988 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2023 at 16:52
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

EL&P1, Tarkus, Trilogy, Brain Salad are good albums (similar quality) with some great track, but is there a masterpiece?

About masterpieces, I find much masterwork in ELP's first five albums, not least Emerson's keyboard playing,
and I have the impression that it's quite admired among musicologists - and as said, the first five albums certainly work to me. Tongue


Of course, everyone has their own tastes and evaluations. I have tried to express the reasons why I consider EL&P to be not up to the standards of the other great prog groups.

The album on Pictures of an Exhibition by Musorgsky is emblematic of EL&P's greatness and limitations, because Emerson made an album for the first time by transposing a classical composition into rock music, but, in my opinion, many parts of that work are embarrassing.

The musicologist Enrico Merlin, a jazz guitarist, in his book '1000 records for a century', which is based on his choice of the most innovative records, puts Tarkus and Pictures, pointing out that the Tarkus suite will be taken as a model for many prog suites, and that Pictures was a unique experiment, because Emerson did not make a simple musical transposition, he improvised on Musorgsky's music. Two records for a band is a lot, it means that the historical value of EL&P is big. At the same time, Merlin admits that their music has aged badly, that Emerson in Pictures is not very competent when he plays swing, and that many of their songs are musical quotations of other composers' pieces (he also writes which ones), without Emerson writing this in the credits.
Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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^ Fairly put -
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


But I have to admit that ELP is certainly not one of The Big Six according to the ratings on RYM and PA.  Cry
To me ELP are the most "child of their time" out of the bands in the poll. I think that's the reason their music largely fails to communicate to younger generations. I'm exaggerating a bit. But I do believe that's why they have lost more of their fanbase since the 1970's than any of the other five other bands in the so-called Big Six. I know some people here, strongly dislike that this is even an issue for others, but it's also about how they sound. Personally I know they are "great", but I can't listen to them. I don't enjoy their musical approach in similar ways to how I don't enjoy Janis Joplins singing style. I know she was "great" too, but it doesn't really help me much.

-that aside I don't think any of these six are overrated. They're all rather fairly rated.


Edited by Saperlipopette! - April 30 2023 at 16:53
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David_D View Drop Down
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But I have to admit that ELP is certainly not one of The Big Six according to the ratings on RYM and PA.  Cry
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Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

EL&P1, Tarkus, Trilogy, Brain Salad are good albums (similar quality) with some great track, but is there a masterpiece?

About masterpieces, I find much masterwork in ELP's first five albums, not least Emerson's keyboard playing,
and I have the impression that it's quite admired among musicologists - and as said, the first five albums certainly work to me. Tongue



Edited by David_D - April 30 2023 at 13:06
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

ELP lacking masterpieces apparently yet just about every track off their first 5 albums are interesting at the very least. There are a few throwaway tracks but their importance is always blown way out of proportion. ELP actually had personalities and enjoyed getting out there and doing it. Emerson had no interest in spending a year working out the fine details of the production anymore than Lake or Palmer. A lot of bands prefer to spend an inordinate amount of time in a studio possibly because they are more comfortable not being in front of a live audience. I've tried watching old concerts of Yes and Genesis and they are pretty dull in truth. ELP were never that. The only one of the big six that could hold a candle to ELP live was Tull. They were actually superb in that arena but also put out many solid albums and maybe a few masterpieces. 

Yes, I think, ELP were very influential for the popularity of Progressive Rock in the '70s.
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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

All I can say is that ELP is one of the three bands who have made the largest number of albums I love really much. 
Which are the three bands?

And which are the albums by EL&P you love?

ELP, Genesis and Pink Floyd.

The first four studio albums, and I'm quite fond of Pictures as well. 


Edited by David_D - April 30 2023 at 04:40
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ELP lacking masterpieces apparently yet just about every track off their first 5 albums are interesting at the very least. There are a few throwaway tracks but their importance is always blown way out of proportion. ELP actually had personalities and enjoyed getting out there and doing it. Emerson had no interest in spending a year working out the fine details of the production anymore than Lake or Palmer. A lot of bands prefer to spend an inordinate amount of time in a studio possibly because they are more comfortable not being in front of a live audience. I've tried watching old concerts of Yes and Genesis and they are pretty dull in truth. ELP were never that. The only one of the big six that could hold a candle to ELP live was Tull. They were actually superb in that arena but also put out many solid albums and maybe a few masterpieces. The overrated band is easily Pink Floyd notwithstanding I love WYWH and Animals, they dine out on the incredible success of DSOTM, basically just a very good album with some polished guitar work and admittedly great lyrics from Waters which provided a perfect commentary for modern life and the various stresses it poses. Musically it's not that interesting to me though and Nick just plods his way through it. They did step up with the next 2 but is that enough really.
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Definitely Emerson....

I own all their albums, but I rarely listen to them these days. To my ears they´ve written very few good songs. I mostly listen to their albums to hear technical playing details and that´s not enough to land them in top 6 of progressive rock artists.
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Pink Floyd.  Every other band on the list had an amazing guitarist, but PF basically had a speeded up blues guitarist. 

Some fine music, but I don't put them in the same category as the others.

BTW, Greg Lake was amazing on both bass guitar and 6 string guitar.  I don't know why ELP gets hammered on this website.
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The word overrated is overrated.
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