The first suite |
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Saperlipopette!
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Edit: I found out that Sandy is a man Edited by Saperlipopette! - April 10 2023 at 15:47 |
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David_D
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BS, Paul |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Psychedelic Paul
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What does that mean?
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David_D
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sorry, JamesB. |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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David_D
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Read the thread, and then I hope for you that you understand the answer. |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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David_D
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Now, I like even better this thread, as it gets funny too.
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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progaardvark
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It certainly is a candidate for the Just for Fun section, where we don't even know what words are, let alone what they mean.
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i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Online Points: 15261 |
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I recently made a list on Rate Your Music called SECRET ORIGINS: The Earliest Examples of Progressive Rock, Progressive Folk & Jazz-Rock FusionFor early whole side suites i would include The Collectors - s/t 1968 The Electric Prunes - Mass In F Minor released in 1967 could be thought of as a continuous album track Ford Theatre - Trilogy for the Masses released in July 1968 has what could be considered a continuous B side Hansson & Karlsson - Rex has a sole B side track. Released in 1968 Hapshash & The Coloured Cat - Featuring the Human Host and the Heavy Metal Kidshas a one track B side and was released in November 1967 The Nice - Ars Longa Vita Brevis had an entire B side suite released Dec 1968 Procol Harum - Shine On Brightly the same Dec 1968 Vanilla Fudge - The Beat Goes On released Febr 1968 could be considered four suites on two albums so one suite each side Lumpy Gravy has already been mentioned but many wouldn't call that prog but rather experimental rock. Personally i think it's a toss up between Electric Prunes and Hapshash & The Coloured Cat but of course it all depends on how you are defining the subject at hand |
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Psychedelic Paul
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David_D
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I think that in this case, it's most fair to look at the whole Rock genre and disregarding the style. |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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David_D
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Btw, an interesting title in relation to the Heavy Metal genre. |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Online Points: 15261 |
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OK but still Lumpy Gravy came out in 68 whereas these two came out in 67 |
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BrufordFreak
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I'm sorry, Lorenzo. My mention of The Mothers' Freak Out was meant to imply this discussion's previous mentions of songs/sides from The Mothers' 1966 album--specifically the mention of "The Return of Son of Monster Magnet" on the band's concept double album. As to my other mentions, I guess I'm expressing my interest in the impetus for the formation/creation/adaptation of the suite/epic/jam format that eventually became so much associated with progressive rock music--the topic you started. It is a topic that I have been researching for some time now--and which seems to have its roots in classical music forms (symphony, sonata, opera, etc.) but also in the classical Indian music that the West had been exposed to by the extensive touring (and album releases) of Ravi Shankar and Usted Ali Akbar Khan as well as from the minimalist explorations of Terry Riley, Paul Bley, and others and the influx of African musical traditions as explored and expressed by the jam sessions and teachings of Babatunde Olatunji. The influence of Indian and African musical traditions is well accounted for in the notes and interviews of many artists who later wandered into and under the "progressive rock" umbrella--a web that has already been stretched on this site by the inclusion of the likes of 1950s Miles Davis and 1960s Herbie Hancock. The influence of Ravi Shankar's music and John Coltrane's "India" on Roger McGuinn's creation of the first psychout song ever--"Eight Miles High"--is well documented. We know that two of the side-long epics of The Soft Machine's ground-breaking album Third come directly from the influence of Terry Riley and Miles Davis. Keith Emerson and Mont Campbell were obviously trying to follow established forms with their Nice Ars Longa Vita Brevis and first Egg albums, respectively. Iron Butterfly were undoubtedly inspired to jam while under the influence of a particularly hypnotic groove (probably the Doors' "The End"). My point is: It is so very hard to delineate the "start" and the "precursors" of progressive rock music when it doesn't come from rock music, it comes from the melding of many forms and influences. I love the discovery of these influences--of the pioneers' stories of where their ideas came from. So, thanks for starting this thread. I'm sorry if it's become a slog. Oh, and I forgot to mention the influence of UCLA student trumpeter Don Ellis on others when he and his new fascination with odd time structures (gleaned from his Indian professor Harihar Rao, a student of Ravi Shankar's), and what evolved out of their school band, The Hindustani Jazz Sextet. Don's Orchestra's performance at the 1966 Monterey Jazz Festival is legendary. So many people claim to have been blown away by his band's "show stopping" game-changing performance with its incredibly unusual time signatures and unusual stage presence of three bass players, three drummers, organ, vibes, and vast horn section. The 1967 album "Live" at Monterey Jazz Festival captures some of their performance. Who knows, maybe Frank--or one of his future band members--was there. We know Ralph Humphrey was--and even became a Don Ellis Orchestra drummer after the car accident took teenage drumming phenom Steve Bohannon out of the picture. While the four jams on 'Live' at Monterey are not side-long, they definitely stretched space allowed on the standard vinyl album: with 39:18, he was definitely pushing the then-known limits of vinyl pressing! Edited by BrufordFreak - April 12 2023 at 06:32 |
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Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
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jamesbaldwin
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The album by Electric Prunes dont include a side-long song. Unitil now I've found: - Sandy Bull: Blend (1963) - Hapshash & The Coloured Cat (1967) - Lumpy Gravy (1968) - In A Gadda (1968) - Nice (1968) - Procol Harum (1968) - The collectors (1968 - month?) - Hansson & Karlsson - Rex (1968: month?) Edited by jamesbaldwin - April 11 2023 at 07:40 |
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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moshkito
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Hi, Nice listing and for once, it's cool to see it not be determined by "favorites" or "fans" who have not heard the music, and refuse to do so. I can't even think of an addition, although I might have included THE INCREDIBLE STRING BAND on that first list, but poetry in music is such a bitch ... most can not handle it, because it does not tell a regular kid story, and you have to work the words to find something in them. Robin Williamson is adamant about their start as just adding music to the poetry ... and that sometimes things changed a bit so the it seems to sound like a proper song, was likely accidental and a by-product of their work. Some magnificent work, and "EARTH SPAN" is probably as progressive as folk music can be, with some outstanding material.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Online Points: 15261 |
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Mass In F Minor is a religious concept album where all the tracks run together. If different names of the tracks are the criteria then no but in reality side long tracks are really just different tracks stitched together so these distinctions are murky. I thought this was a rock thread. Did you change it? Sandy Bull isn't rock but folk and American primitivism. If you are discarding the rock requirements then i think you could find countless suite long albums in Western classical, jazz, Indian ragas and other meditative forms of music long before rock was even a thing. No months listed for those two albums from 68 so i guess a mystery. |
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Online Points: 15261 |
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I DID include The Incredible String Band. Look again. |
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jamesbaldwin
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Mass In F Minor is a religious concept album where all the tracks run together. If different names of the tracks are the criteria then no but in reality side long tracks are really just different tracks stitched together so these distinctions are murky. --I haven't listened that album yet. I have seen that the songs are separate, each with its own duration. So I exclude that album. I'm interested in songs where the music flows uninterruptedly from beginning to end, and fills a whole side. I thought this was a rock thread. Did you change it? Sandy Bull isn't rock but folk and American primitivism. --In fact Sandy Bull is lateral to rock. I heard the song Blend, which is also beautiful, all guitar and percussion. It is a folk fusion record, there is jazz and tribalism, there is also rock. I wouldn't know whether to include it or not. In principle, I consider folk part of rock, whereas jazz is a separate thing. As broad categories I have: 1) cultured music 2) rock music (pop) 3) jazz 4) avant-garde music. I know that these boundaries are blurred and can be modulated in many other ways. If you are discarding the rock requirements then i think you could find countless suite long albums in Western classical, jazz, Indian ragas and other meditative forms of music long before rock was even a thing. Yes I suppose, but I would focus on what we now call rock or pop, or close to it. No months listed for those two albums from 68 so i guess a mystery. |
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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David_D
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It can be noticed about Lumpy Gravy that it's recorded in 1967: https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/francis-vincent-zappa-and-the-abnuceals-emuukha-electric-symphony-orchestra-and-chorus/lumpy-gravy/ |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Online Points: 15261 |
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^ i certainly consider Zappa as one of THE most early innovators in
the rock music paradigm. Even before the Beatles. Some of these exact
dates are mystery because we have no idea when some of those were
recorded given their obscurity. Lumpy Gravy says recorded between 1961
and 1967 so perhaps that is the actual first. Personally i would only
count release date since that's when it was allowed to hit the public
consciousness. Edited by siLLy puPPy - April 11 2023 at 09:44 |
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