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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2023 at 15:41
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Maybe the first was Sandy Bull, with Fantasias for Guitar & Banjo, 1963.

The piece Blend (22 minutes) occupies the first side of the disc.
If we're including all musical genres and styles in human existence, she's about 500 years late to be the first.

Edit: I found out that Sandy is a man



Edited by Saperlipopette! - April 10 2023 at 15:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2023 at 15:45
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Paul, if this topic doesn't interest you, it's easy to stay away. 
I'm just enjoying the music without wishing to get Entangled in the back and forth debate about what does and doesn't constitute a suite. Wink

BS, Paul

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2023 at 15:47
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Paul, if this topic doesn't interest you, it's easy to stay away. 
I'm just enjoying the music without wishing to get Entangled in the back and forth debate about what does and doesn't constitute a suite. Wink

BS, Paul

What does that mean? Ermm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2023 at 15:47
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Maybe the first was Sandy Bull, with Fantasias for Guitar & Banjo, 1963.

The piece Blend (22 minutes) occupies the first side of the disc.
If we're including all musical genres and styles in human existence, she's about 500 years late to be the first.

LOL  sorry, JamesB.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2023 at 15:50
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Paul, if this topic doesn't interest you, it's easy to stay away. 
I'm just enjoying the music without wishing to get Entangled in the back and forth debate about what does and doesn't constitute a suite. Wink
BS, Paul
What does that mean? Ermm

Read the thread, and then I hope for you that you understand the answer. Big smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2023 at 15:52

Now, I like even better this thread, as it gets funny too. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2023 at 16:46
It certainly is a candidate for the Just for Fun section, where we don't even know what words are, let alone what they mean. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2023 at 16:53
I recently made a list on Rate Your Music called

SECRET ORIGINS: The Earliest Examples of Progressive Rock, Progressive Folk & Jazz-Rock Fusion



For early whole side suites i would include

The Collectors - s/t  1968
The Electric Prunes - Mass In F Minor released in 1967 could be thought of as a continuous album track
Ford Theatre - Trilogy for the Masses released in July 1968 has what could be considered a continuous B side
Hansson & Karlsson - Rex has a sole B side track. Released in 1968
Hapshash & The Coloured Cat - Featuring the Human Host and the Heavy Metal Kidshas a one track B side and was released in November 1967
The Nice - Ars Longa Vita Brevis had an entire B side suite released Dec 1968
Procol Harum - Shine On Brightly the same Dec 1968
Vanilla Fudge - The Beat Goes On released Febr 1968 could be considered four suites on two albums so one suite each side
Lumpy Gravy has already been mentioned but many wouldn't call that prog but rather experimental rock.

Personally i think it's a toss up between Electric Prunes and Hapshash & The Coloured Cat but of course it all depends on how you are defining the subject at hand










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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2023 at 17:03
"Bohemian Rhapsody", a bombastic mock-operatic rock song which is in the form of a four-part suite.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2023 at 05:27
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Lumpy Gravy has already been mentioned but many wouldn't call that prog but rather experimental rock.

Personally i think it's a toss up between Electric Prunes and Hapshash & The Coloured Cat but of course it all depends on how you are defining the subject at hand

I think that in this case, it's most fair to look at the whole Rock genre and disregarding the style.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2023 at 06:34
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Hapshash & The Coloured Cat - Featuring the Human Host and the Heavy Metal Kids has a one track B side and was released in November 1967

Btw, an interesting title in relation to the Heavy Metal genre.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2023 at 06:48
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Lumpy Gravy has already been mentioned but many wouldn't call that prog but rather experimental rock.

Personally i think it's a toss up between Electric Prunes and Hapshash & The Coloured Cat but of course it all depends on how you are defining the subject at hand

I think that in this case, it's most fair to look at the whole Rock genre and disregarding the style.



OK but still Lumpy Gravy came out in 68 whereas these two came out in 67

https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/hapshash-and-the-coloured-coat/featuring-the-human-host-and-the-heavy-metal-kids/

https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/the-electric-prunes/mass-in-f-minor/

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2023 at 06:57
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

I've been going with The Mothers' 1966 double album, Freak Out, but when can we start including the side-long jazz combo songs? When they started electrifying the bass or using organ? Like Sun Ra's "The Sun Myth" from his 1966 album, The Heliocentric Worlds of Sun Ra, Vol. 2. That is, are we going to leave out side-long jazz albums despite the fact that they are pre-prog, pre-jazz-rock fusion?

Plus, what about the stuff Terry Riley was doing live in Boston venues in the early & mid-60s (which later got recorded as "In C" "A Rainbow in Curved Air" and "Poppy Nogood and the Phantom Band All Night Flight")


Freak out is not a side-long song, Drew.

Sun Ra and Terry Riley: are they in progarchives? I checked: No (Terry Riley's music is considered prog-related)

I'm interested in prog rock or proto-prog albums.

I'm sorry, Lorenzo. My mention of The Mothers' Freak Out was meant to imply this discussion's previous mentions of songs/sides from The Mothers' 1966 album--specifically the mention of "The Return of Son of Monster Magnet" on the band's concept double album.

As to my other mentions, I guess I'm expressing my interest in the impetus for the formation/creation/adaptation of the suite/epic/jam format that eventually became so much associated with progressive rock music--the topic you started. It is a topic that I have been researching for some time now--and which seems to have its roots in classical music forms (symphony, sonata, opera, etc.) but also in the classical Indian music that the West had been exposed to by the extensive touring (and album releases) of Ravi Shankar and Usted Ali Akbar Khan as well as from the minimalist explorations of Terry Riley, Paul Bley,  and others and the influx of African musical traditions as explored and expressed by the jam sessions and teachings of Babatunde Olatunji. 

The influence of Indian and African musical traditions is well accounted for in the notes and interviews of many artists who later wandered into and under the "progressive rock" umbrella--a web that has already been stretched on this site by the inclusion of the likes of 1950s Miles Davis and 1960s Herbie Hancock. The influence of Ravi Shankar's music and John Coltrane's "India" on Roger McGuinn's creation of the first psychout song ever--"Eight Miles High"--is well documented. We know that two of the side-long epics of The Soft Machine's ground-breaking album Third come directly from the influence of Terry Riley and Miles Davis.
     Keith Emerson and Mont Campbell were obviously trying to follow established forms with their Nice Ars Longa Vita Brevis and first Egg albums, respectively.
     Iron Butterfly were undoubtedly inspired to jam while under the influence of a particularly hypnotic groove (probably the Doors' "The End"). 

My point is: It is so very hard to delineate the "start" and the "precursors" of progressive rock music when it doesn't come from rock music, it comes from the melding of many forms and influences. I love the discovery of these influences--of the pioneers' stories of where their ideas came from. So, thanks for starting this thread. I'm sorry if it's become a slog.


Oh, and I forgot to mention the influence of UCLA student trumpeter Don Ellis on others when he and his new fascination with odd time structures (gleaned from his Indian professor Harihar Rao, a student of Ravi Shankar's), and what evolved out of their school band, The Hindustani Jazz Sextet. Don's Orchestra's performance at the 1966 Monterey Jazz Festival is legendary. So many people claim to have been blown away by his band's "show stopping" game-changing performance with its incredibly unusual time signatures and unusual stage presence of three bass players, three drummers, organ, vibes, and vast horn section. The 1967 album "Live" at Monterey Jazz Festival captures some of their performance. Who knows, maybe Frank--or one of his future band members--was there. We know Ralph Humphrey was--and even became a Don Ellis Orchestra drummer after the car accident took teenage drumming phenom Steve Bohannon out of the picture.

While the four jams on 'Live' at Monterey are not side-long, they definitely stretched space allowed on the standard vinyl album: with 39:18, he was definitely pushing the then-known limits of vinyl pressing!





Edited by BrufordFreak - April 12 2023 at 06:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2023 at 07:27
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Lumpy Gravy has already been mentioned but many wouldn't call that prog but rather experimental rock.

Personally i think it's a toss up between Electric Prunes and Hapshash & The Coloured Cat but of course it all depends on how you are defining the subject at hand

I think that in this case, it's most fair to look at the whole Rock genre and disregarding the style.



OK but still Lumpy Gravy came out in 68 whereas these two came out in 67



The album by  Electric Prunes dont include a side-long song.

Unitil now I've found:

- Sandy Bull: Blend (1963)

- Hapshash & The Coloured Cat (1967)

- Lumpy Gravy (1968)
- In A Gadda (1968)
- Nice (1968)
- Procol Harum (1968)

- The collectors (1968 - month?)
Hansson & Karlsson - Rex (1968: month?)



Edited by jamesbaldwin - April 11 2023 at 07:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2023 at 07:36
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

I recently made a list on Rate Your Music called

SECRET ORIGINS: The Earliest Examples of Progressive Rock, Progressive Folk & Jazz-Rock Fusion



...


Hi,

Nice listing and for once, it's cool to see it not be determined by "favorites" or "fans" who have not heard the music, and refuse to do so.

I can't even think of an addition, although I might have included THE INCREDIBLE STRING BAND on that first list, but poetry in music is such a bitch ... most can not handle it, because it does not tell a regular kid story, and you have to work the words to find something in them. Robin Williamson is adamant about their start as just adding music to the poetry ... and that sometimes things changed a bit so the it seems to sound like a proper song, was likely accidental and a by-product of their work. Some magnificent work, and "EARTH SPAN" is probably as progressive as folk music can be, with some outstanding material.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2023 at 08:36
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Lumpy Gravy has already been mentioned but many wouldn't call that prog but rather experimental rock.

Personally i think it's a toss up between Electric Prunes and Hapshash & The Coloured Cat but of course it all depends on how you are defining the subject at hand

I think that in this case, it's most fair to look at the whole Rock genre and disregarding the style.



OK but still Lumpy Gravy came out in 68 whereas these two came out in 67



The album by  Electric Prunes dont include a side-long song.

Unitil now I've found:

- Sandy Bull: Blend (1963)

- Hapshash & The Coloured Cat (1967)

- Lumpy Gravy (1968)
- In A Gadda (1968)
- Nice (1968)
- Procol Harum (1968)

- The collectors (1968 - month?)
Hansson & Karlsson - Rex (1968: month?)



Mass In F Minor is a religious concept album where all the tracks run together. If different names of the tracks are the criteria then no but in reality side long tracks are really just different tracks stitched together so these distinctions are murky.

I thought this was a rock thread. Did you change it? Sandy Bull isn't rock but folk and American primitivism.

If you are discarding the rock requirements then i think you could find countless suite long albums in Western classical, jazz, Indian ragas and other meditative forms of music long before rock was even a thing.

No months listed for those two albums from 68 so i guess a mystery.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2023 at 08:37
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

I recently made a list on Rate Your Music called

SECRET ORIGINS: The Earliest Examples of Progressive Rock, Progressive Folk & Jazz-Rock Fusion



...


Hi,

Nice listing and for once, it's cool to see it not be determined by "favorites" or "fans" who have not heard the music, and refuse to do so.

I can't even think of an addition, although I might have included THE INCREDIBLE STRING BAND on that first list, but poetry in music is such a bitch ... most can not handle it, because it does not tell a regular kid story, and you have to work the words to find something in them. Robin Williamson is adamant about their start as just adding music to the poetry ... and that sometimes things changed a bit so the it seems to sound like a proper song, was likely accidental and a by-product of their work. Some magnificent work, and "EARTH SPAN" is probably as progressive as folk music can be, with some outstanding material.



I DID include The Incredible String Band. Look again.

https://rateyourmusic.com/list/siLLy_puPPy/secret-origins-the-earliest-examples-of-progressive-rock-progressive-folk-and-jazz-rock-fusion/5/


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2023 at 09:23
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

[QUOTE=siLLy puPPy]Lumpy Gravy has already been mentioned but many wouldn't call that prog but rather experimental rock.

Personally i think it's a toss up between Electric Prunes and Hapshash & The Coloured Cat but of course it all depends on how you are defining the subject at hand

I think that in this case, it's most fair to look at the whole Rock genre and disregarding the style.



OK but still Lumpy Gravy came out in 68 whereas these two came out in 67



The album by  Electric Prunes dont include a side-long song.

Unitil now I've found:

- Sandy Bull: Blend (1963)

- Hapshash & The Coloured Cat (1967)

- Lumpy Gravy (1968)
- In A Gadda (1968)
- Nice (1968)
- Procol Harum (1968)

- The collectors (1968 - month?)
Hansson & Karlsson - Rex (1968: month?)






Mass In F Minor is a religious concept album where all the tracks run together. If different names of the tracks are the criteria then no but in reality side long tracks are really just different tracks stitched together so these distinctions are murky.


--I haven't listened that album yet. I have seen that the songs are separate, each with its own duration. So I exclude that album. I'm interested in songs where the music flows uninterruptedly from beginning to end, and fills a whole side.

I thought this was a rock thread. Did you change it? Sandy Bull isn't rock but folk and American primitivism.

--In fact Sandy Bull is lateral to rock. I heard the song Blend, which is also beautiful, all guitar and percussion. It is a folk fusion record, there is jazz and tribalism, there is also rock. I wouldn't know whether to include it or not. In principle, I consider folk part of rock, whereas jazz is a separate thing. As broad categories I have: 1) cultured music 2) rock music (pop) 3) jazz 4) avant-garde music. I know that these boundaries are blurred and can be modulated in many other ways. 


If you are discarding the rock requirements then i think you could find countless suite long albums in Western classical, jazz, Indian ragas and other meditative forms of music long before rock was even a thing.


Yes I suppose, but I would focus on what we now call rock or pop, or close to it.

No months listed for those two albums from 68 so i guess a mystery.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2023 at 09:24
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Unitil now I've found:

- Sandy Bull: Blend (1963)

- Hapshash & The Coloured Cat (1967)

- Lumpy Gravy (1968)
- In A Gadda (1968)
- Nice (1968)
- Procol Harum (1968)

- The collectors (1968 - month?)
Hansson & Karlsson - Rex (1968: month?)

It can be noticed about Lumpy Gravy that it's recorded in 1967:
https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/francis-vincent-zappa-and-the-abnuceals-emuukha-electric-symphony-orchestra-and-chorus/lumpy-gravy/

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2023 at 09:41
^ i certainly consider Zappa as one of THE most early innovators in the rock music paradigm. Even before the Beatles. Some of these exact dates are mystery because we have no idea when some of those were recorded given their obscurity. Lumpy Gravy says recorded between 1961 and 1967 so perhaps that is the actual first. Personally i would only count release date since that's when it was allowed to hit the public consciousness.

I'll have to check out the Sandy Bull. Haven't heard that one yet. In fact it looks like i should add him to my list because he clearly did have an impact on early prog. I had a lot of fun making my list because there were quite a few bands i knew nothing about. It was like going back to that era and living through it without getting addicted to drugs :D

Edited by siLLy puPPy - April 11 2023 at 09:44

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