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I prophesy disaster View Drop Down
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Points: 4801 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2023 at 08:32
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Especially if the reason you're buying vinyl is because you have superhuman hearing that can detect the 16 bit 44.1 kHz limitations of CD music. Tongue
How much experience do you have with listening to all-analog productions, Prophesy?
 
I'm old enough. I know how to use a slide rule. When I was young, I watched black & white television running on thermionic valves. As a child, I listened to some of my dad's 78s. That's right folks, I had a record player that played 78s.
 
As a result of my own experience with both vinyl and CDs, I find it quite perplexing that anyone would prefer vinyl over CDs in general.
 
No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

^Purity for me is the music and only the music ie: audiophile'ish. My Brand X LP is 'Pristine' and absolutely surface noise free. That's what daddy wants !

I can surely understand that, and I'm used to it, as about 90% of all my records are like that, or at least very close to.
But the best thing is, I guess, to be able to compromise. Smile


Edited by David_D - April 05 2023 at 08:45
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Points: 18446 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2023 at 13:13
I'm seriously thinking of going that route. I expect the price will kick me in the b@lls though. I'm guessing by the time I factor in any exchange and shipping I'll be dropping the better part of $100 for each LP.
I need to get paid more !
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Points: 17847 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2023 at 12:49
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

^Purity for me is the music and only the music ie: audiophile'ish. My Brand X LP is 'Pristine' and absolutely surface noise free. That's what daddy wants !
Well you can buy audiophile records, reissues.......Most of them sound pretty darn good!
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^Purity for me is the music and only the music ie: audiophile'ish. My Brand X LP is 'Pristine' and absolutely surface noise free. That's what daddy wants !


Edited by JD - April 04 2023 at 10:54
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Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

I find myself in a constant state of WTF do I really want situation.
I love the sound of vinyl LP's, but only when they are in mint/near mint condition (no real surprise). As I listen to some of my older and my used LP's with sufficient surface noise to warrant a VG or less grading, I long for the purity of CD's. But when a M/NM LP hits the platter I'm in absolute ecstasy.
Problem is, I'm a bit of a Charlie Brown vinyl buyer. Always believing that those NM purchases will scratch that itch, but only getting satisfaction occasionally.
I wish I could time travel back to those days of yore and buy them new again.
A foolish thought to be sure.
You should see a therapist.....LOL It's no big deal, #1 enjoy the music. But I always say enjoy the music with whatever allows you to get engaged in the music. 
This is 100% totally me, you all do you, whatever that is...But for me the CD was an unfulfilling experience, it only lasted for me thru the 90's and that was it. LPs and analog was the 70s and 80s for me, and pretty much since around 2003 again and has not stopped. 
Once I understood why I was not listening to music anymore in the 90s (brick walling, compression, loud) I went back to LPs and began to enjoy again and become engaged. The dynamics were back to my music, soft delicate passages were back, if it was meant to be loud then it sounded that way, but only those instruments and not the flute in my face loud LOL.
Read what you said "I love the sound of vinyl LP's...." and "I long for the purity of CD's..." That's why I'm a LP/analog guy, for me purity = clinical sounding.....We don't hear that way.

I think your gonna feel different in a week or so.....Wink
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JD View Drop Down
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I find myself in a constant state of WTF do I really want situation.
I love the sound of vinyl LP's, but only when they are in mint/near mint condition (no real surprise). As I listen to some of my older and my used LP's with sufficient surface noise to warrant a VG or less grading, I long for the purity of CD's. But when a M/NM LP hits the platter I'm in absolute ecstasy.
Problem is, I'm a bit of a Charlie Brown vinyl buyer. Always believing that those NM purchases will scratch that itch, but only getting satisfaction occasionally.
I wish I could time travel back to those days of yore and buy them new again.
A foolish thought to be sure.
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Originally posted by King of Loss King of Loss wrote:

This thread is getting interesting here. Now, now, we're all superhuman! Embarrassed
It's all good.......It's good for these discussions it helps people understand a bit better the highly subjective nature of music reproduction. I don't like my music to be ones and zeros, but much of it is, nothing I can do about it.
Except look for all analog recordings of my favorite music.
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This thread is getting interesting here. Now, now, we're all superhuman! Embarrassed
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Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Especially if the reason you're buying vinyl is because you have superhuman hearing that can detect the 16 bit 44.1 kHz limitations of CD music. Tongue

How much experience do you have with listening to all-analog productions, Prophesy?
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Points: 17847 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2023 at 12:45
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Especially if the reason you're buying vinyl is because you have superhuman hearing that can detect the 16 bit 44.1 kHz limitations of CD music. Tongue

Sorry but I suppose, if you knew what 44.1 kHz sampling frequency means in the very high tones and overtones, you wouldn't talk about "superhuman hearing". Wink
 
I know what "44.1 kHz sampling frequency means in the very high tones and overtones". I suspect that many people who do not truly understand the mathematics behind this or the human physiology of hearing have a mistaken view of the importance of very high tones and overtones.
 
A sample frequency of 44100 Hz has a Nyquist frequency of 22050 Hz. This means that all frequencies above 22050 Hz must be removed or else there will be aliasing with frequencies above 22050 Hz folding back to below 22050 Hz. But 22050 Hz is somewhat above human hearing, which is limited to no more than about 20 kHz, decreasing with age. Thus, even if an analogue sound does contain frequencies above about 20 kHz, these will not be audible. This means that any periodic waveform of fundamental frequency greater than about 10 kHz will sound the same and like a sinusoidal waveform because all the overtones, which are greater than about 20 kHz, will be inaudible.
 
Another misunderstanding people have about digital is the view that the stepped waveform sounds different to the original analog waveform. If one takes the difference between the stepped digital waveform and the original analog waveform, the resulting waveform has a fundamental frequency of 44.1 kHz, and is therefore inaudible.
 
It should be noted that if signal frequencies are inaudible, then it is preferable that they not be present because these frequencies can produce distortion of the signals that are audible if the inaudible signals are substantial.

Mathematically, this is all correct, but we don't listen to numbers. There is musical information above 20KHz, it is common knowledge that cymbals, percussion, brass instruments can reach 25-30KHz let alone some electronic instruments play higher. Frequencies as high as 80KHz have been cut to vinyl as well as low as 5Hz. 
Even though we don't "hear" anything this low or high what it does it gives us the full experience of the musical note, you get the full sustain of notes, nothing is cut off. 
That distortion that might be present in analog is so low that it really does not matter, it plays more havoc on digital, it will only show up with an o-scope analysis, but DAC performance can be affected.
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I prophesy disaster View Drop Down
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Points: 4801 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2023 at 12:15
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Especially if the reason you're buying vinyl is because you have superhuman hearing that can detect the 16 bit 44.1 kHz limitations of CD music. Tongue

Sorry but I suppose, if you knew what 44.1 kHz sampling frequency means in the very high tones and overtones, you wouldn't talk about "superhuman hearing". Wink
 
I know what "44.1 kHz sampling frequency means in the very high tones and overtones". I suspect that many people who do not truly understand the mathematics behind this or the human physiology of hearing have a mistaken view of the importance of very high tones and overtones.
 
A sample frequency of 44100 Hz has a Nyquist frequency of 22050 Hz. This means that all frequencies above 22050 Hz must be removed or else there will be aliasing with frequencies above 22050 Hz folding back to below 22050 Hz. But 22050 Hz is somewhat above human hearing, which is limited to no more than about 20 kHz, decreasing with age. Thus, even if an analogue sound does contain frequencies above about 20 kHz, these will not be audible. This means that any periodic waveform of fundamental frequency greater than about 10 kHz will sound the same and like a sinusoidal waveform because all the overtones, which are greater than about 20 kHz, will be inaudible.
 
Another misunderstanding people have about digital is the view that the stepped waveform sounds different to the original analog waveform. If one takes the difference between the stepped digital waveform and the original analog waveform, the resulting waveform has a fundamental frequency of 44.1 kHz, and is therefore inaudible.
 
It should be noted that if signal frequencies are inaudible, then it is preferable that they not be present because these frequencies can produce distortion of the signals that are audible if the inaudible signals are substantial.
 
No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

Nothing technically wrong here. What is a bit messy is that he is talking about the digital capturing method against the vinyl playback medium. What he misses is the fact that the most common digital playback medium is the CD and it cannot go below 20Hz nor above 20KHz, whereas the vinyl medium can go below and above that.
The CD cannot hold that kind of frequency range so it should be described as a lossy medium due to redbook limitations. In fact both are a lossy medium in that the vinyl cannot go above about 80dB of dynamic range and the CD can get to about 92dB, but that is of less concern overall.
What is key for vinyl playback is the RIAA curve, which is why a phono preamp should be a focus on for getting the most accurate reproduction off the record.

I'm still trying to figure out that cartridge at the start of the video..WTH is that??? Confused
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The best (inter-subjective) "truth" about analog vs digital would be big-scale statistics concerning audiophiles' comparative
experiences with both media, and what they think about them.
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Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

https://youtu.be/GgFyMSew3Rs

He is missing the 2003 30th anniversary version, which is easily one of the best. It was done by Kevin Gray and Doug Sax using the A2/B3 plates. This is the version I think I currently prefer, against my 5th UK pressing. The bottom end of the 2003 version is lush and deep where needed. Don't get me wrong the UK one I have is very good, I've never heard a '73 original UK pressing, all these guys call it the best. But you need about $2K minimum to find one. Ain't happin'.......
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^ The title of this video doesn't look promising concerning the quality of it. Big smile
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Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Especially if the reason you're buying vinyl is because you have superhuman hearing that can detect the 16 bit 44.1 kHz limitations of CD music. Tongue

Sorry but I suppose, if you knew what 44.1 kHz sampling frequency means in the very high tones and overtones, you wouldn't talk about "superhuman hearing". Wink


Edited by David_D - April 03 2023 at 06:56
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I prophesy disaster View Drop Down
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Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

This is NOT a defect you want
 
Especially if the reason you're buying vinyl is because you have superhuman hearing that can detect the 16 bit 44.1 kHz limitations of CD music. Tongue
 
A day or two ago, I was watching the video:
 
 
which mentioned (around the 3:50 mark) how crappy US vinyl is compared to other countries such as Canada and Japan.
 
No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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Originally posted by Cosmiclawnmower Cosmiclawnmower wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by JD JD wrote:


IMAGES REMOVED FOR SPACE

I have records with that pressing defect. But generally does not impede the sound much.

Sorry to jump into your thread guys- when i used to import a lot of US/ Canadian pressings i was under the impression that a lot of the visible 'textural' differences visible in US pressings were due to a difference in the manufacturing process; something to do with the temperature of the water used for cooling post-pressing and that it does not make much difference (if any) to the sound quality but put off lots of people in the European market. I had quite a lot of people either complaining or just concerned as they could see these surface 'defects' and i have always been at pains to point the fact that it doesnt generally affect the play-back. European and UK pressings had some pretty dodgy batches of vinyl during the 70's and used a fair amount of re-cycled material when needed.. but overall the consensus of opinion during the 70's and 80's (correct or not) was Best- Japan, next- Germany, next- Europe/ UK and Canada, then- USA and last- other Asian countries and Communist countries. Ive found over the years, lots of examples that de-bunk all that but it does seem that was how it was seen over here. About 25% of my collection is US pressings and overall they are easily comparable to what was available to elsewhere in the world.

Now, Sleeves... thats another matter..Wink
I've spent the better part of the last 40 years in plastics and injection moulding. This is NOT a defect you want, on any product. In this particular case the defect presents itself as loud crackling/static like distortion. Like walking on dried leaves. And believe me, this album is clean. It's been both US'icly and manually deep groove cleaned...to no effect. These are in the surface, stresses from most likely, as mentioned above, poor cooling cycle and/or out of spec materials. This is the worse one I've ever seen.

Thanks for chiming in John.
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