Roger Waters

David_D wrote: Cristi wrote: So Roger and David hate AHM. I don't get it what's the big deal...  What do you mean?

I think Cristi was referring to David Gilmour disliking Atom Heart Mother - not you. 

Edited by Psychedelic Paul - March 24 2023 at 12:23

Psychedelic Paul wrote: David_D wrote: Cristi wrote: So Roger and David hate AHM. I don't get it what's the big deal...  What do you mean?  I think Cristi was referring to David Gilmour disliking Atom Heart Mother - not you.

I like AHM just fine thanks

Lewian wrote: Nogbad_The_Bad wrote: I like AHM just fine thanks How am I not surprised?

omphaloskepsis wrote: My definitions <span style="color: rgb20, 20, 20; font-family: ReithSans, Helvetica, Arial, freesans, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">Anti-Semitism is "hostility and prejudice directed against Jewish people"</span> <span style="color: rgb20, 20, 20; font-family: ReithSans, Helvetica, Arial, freesans, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> </span> [COLOR=#141414" face="ReithSans, Helvetica, Arial, freesans, sans-serif]<span style="font-size: 16px;]Anti-Zionism is not Anti-Semitism.  That said, pro- Zionist's conflate Anti-Semitism and Anti-Zionism, because the conflation of the two terms hamstrings peoples like Palestinians from criticizing the Israeli government's abuse toward Palestinians.  An Anti-Zionist is a person/group who harshly criticizes or is hostile to Israeli governments actions. </span>[/COLOR] [COLOR=#141414" face="ReithSans, Helvetica, Arial, freesans, sans-serif]<span style="font-size: 16px;] </span>[/COLOR] [COLOR=#141414" face="ReithSans, Helvetica, Arial, freesans, sans-serif]<span style="font-size: 16px;]It's entirely possible for an Anti-Zionist to love the Jewish people but hate Israeli government's actions. </span>[/COLOR] [COLOR=#141414" face="ReithSans, Helvetica, Arial, freesans, sans-serif]<span style="font-size: 16px;] </span>[/COLOR] [COLOR=#141414" face="ReithSans, Helvetica, Arial, freesans, sans-serif]<span style="font-size: 16px;]I am not an Anti-Zionist or an Anti-Semitist.  I empathize with the plight of the Palestinians, yet I understand why Israel wants to protect their borders from Palestinians.   That said, I wish America would spend the money that they send to Israel on Americans instead. </span>[/COLOR]

First of all, Zionism is the belief that the Jews have the right to autonomy in their historical homeland, eg. present day Israeli boundaries - thus, anti-zionism therefore implies the belief that Jews do not have the right to self autonomy in modern Israel, which means the supporters of anti-zionism do not belief Israel as a country has the right to exist, which is in fact antisemitic. Yes, proper "anti-zionism" is indeed antisemitic, and boycotting the country supports this ideology, such such is the refusal to acknowledge the country exists, etc. Boycotting a country is boycotting ordinary citizens, and not the government with whom you "disagree," such that only the innocents are hurt. What if I told you that the biggest victims of BDS are the Palestinian workers who are affected by the boycotts? Because they're the ones losing jobs over the walls BDS is putting up - ironic that they believe the way to move forward and help the "oppressed" is to build barricades between the "oppressed" and the "oppressors," instead of preaching unity and cooperation. The whole thing is insufferable to me, and if you want my honest opinion, as a person who grew up outside of Israel and now lives there, anyone who thinks they're helping Palestinians by harassing a musician for scheduling a show in Israel is completely out of touch with reality and has no idea what is actually going on (such as Roger Waters and Peter Gabriel). Again, I'm not going to waste my time getting into this "Israel is colonist apartheid" BS, because, again, either you understand or you don't, and those who don't, don't want to.

People seem to keep conflating "criticism of Israel," with "anti-zionism" and have ludicrous claims that "criticizing the Israeli government will get you called an antisemite;" no, honey, calling Israelim "Zionist European Colonists" will. The people most critical of Israel at the moment are the Israelim themselves because of Bibi's coalition issues (I'm staying out of this one and not touching it with a six foot pole, but the point remains). Constructive, eg beneficial, criticism of Israel, just like constructive criticism of every country in the world is indeed a GOOD thing. How many people do you hear scream "f**k America!," or "Americans are baby killers," or "from the Atlantic to the Pacific, the Cherokee will be free-ic!" What exactly do these blanketed statements solve, huh? You're definitely bringing peace by screaming that.

Nevertheless, I'm only commenting here to address the "money America spends on Israel" comment. I may address the other comments I read earlier, or not. I really don't care that much, tbh, what do the kids say nowadays... "haters gonna hate?" Yeah let's go with that...

Just so you know this money is less than the amount America sends to Afghanistan, as well as various other countries. Surely you don't have a problem with foreign aid to Afghanistan and various other countries, right? Otherwise you'd have brought that up, too. Or is it just Israelim you don't want receiving the money you believe should go to Americans? Say that money were "sent" (more on that below) to Japan, instead, you'd still have a problem with that, right? Because it's about spending it on Americans, not non-Americans, right? Or is your problem that you don't want it "sent" to Israelim (this is rhetorical, I already know the answer). People talk like it's so much money being "sent," when in reality it really isn't much, and barely at all impacts the overall budget. We're talking pocket change here. The United States by percentage of GDP sends a very little amount to foreign countries relative to other highly developed countries. What if I told you that NASA's budget alone is 5.5 times the amount America is "sending" to Israel - how exactly is NASA benefiting Americans, again? Sure maybe you believe that space travel = cool and whatnot, but how do Americans benefit from it? And even then, NASA barely touches the US budget.

Why did I "quotate" "sending?" Well the money America "sends" to Israel instead of spending it "on Americans" is actually being spent on Americans, for all intents and purposes... it's military aid, not economic aid. This means the money goes right back into the American economy. It's essentially a coupon for Israel to purchase American-made weapons and acts more like a subsidy of American weapon manufacturers than proper foreign "aid." Many Israelim (myself included ) actually want the aid to stop because it forces us to stick with American-made armory and thus hinders Israeli innovation. In fact, this is literally the point of the aid - to have Israel more reliant on American armory, thus giving America potential political power over Israel's autonomy. If we stopped taking the money, we'd just innovate and make our own replacements for them (or buy from other countries). It's actually healthier for the relationship between the two countries if the "aid" stopped; but it's not for the same reasons most "anti-zionists" claim (eg "apartheid state bad").

Once again, it's pointless to elaborate on many of these details because no one is changing their viewpoints of anything here. I'm essentially just stating what I believe what I need to just so it's out there.


Edited by bardberic - March 24 2023 at 20:54

Awesoreno wrote: ^ I'm actually learning a lot and am interested. But, granted, I am another individual who actively reads up on this subject and ongoing conflict both in Israel and in the US. I need to feel informed since I'm constantly discussing with very adamant fellow Jews who berate me for not fully supporting every decision the Israeli government makes and having any sympathy for Palestinians, and other progressives who criticize me or question my lefty credentials for even suggesting that their views on the subject are incomplete and biased (and put the existence of a safe haven for the Jewish people in jeopardy). I think many people here on the forum are more open-minded and curious than you give them credit for, but I understand your skepticism considering most people in the world are certainly not, and will not even consider the possibility they could be wrong or misinformed.

Yes, I do agree upon reviewing my comments they do seem to be quite pessimistic. I'll try to be a bit less abrasive from here on out. I discuss this issue a lot with people and 9/10 times, from my experience, my interactions are with people who read a handful of headlines and believe they are experts on the subjects and try to scholar me on the "facts" they have been misled to believe, which is why I don't like elaborating on my essentially blanketed statements. I really only came here to discuss how Roger Waters got what he deserved, not about Israel, but of course it turned into a whole thing about Israel - this is a Roger Waters thread, not an Israel thread. That's my fault for not holding my peace, I suppose.

It does seem there are a lot of Jews and Israelim on this site - I guess we really do like prog, huh?

bardberic wrote:  It does seem there are a lot of Jews and Israelim on this site - I guess we really do like prog, huh?

Edited by David_D - March 25 2023 at 07:23