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The deroute and decline of DREAM THEATER!

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earlyprog View Drop Down
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    Posted: February 01 2023 at 13:38
DREAM THEATER's 2021 release "A View From the Top of the World' has been rated a mere 280 times. 

More than well below their former releases and a substantial decline in ratings since the 2003 release "Octavarium" with 2160 ratings.

Why do you think?

(I seem to like the albums and tracks that others dislike such as this  )


Edited by earlyprog - February 01 2023 at 13:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Necrotica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2023 at 13:59
I'd say it's a matter of Dream Theater being in a holding pattern these days; they're past their point of peak relevance and significance now, so now most of their work is being consumed by the more dedicated and hardcore fans, as opposed to a wider audience. I'm not sure if I would necessarily call it a decline, as much as simply the natural peak/valley cycle of these types of bands. Same goes with Iron Maiden: most people know what to expect from a new IM album, and it's clear that they'll never release a Number of the Beast or Powerslave again, but that doesn't really deter a smaller, more dedicated crop of fans from still checking the new stuff out.

Personally, I actually thought A View from the Top of the World was Dream Theater's best record in a decade Smile


Edited by Necrotica - February 01 2023 at 14:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mathman0806 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2023 at 15:53
There's also an overall decline in active users here. PT's In Absentia has 2705 ratings. C/C has 301.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prog-jester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2023 at 16:12
^this

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2023 at 16:20
Originally posted by Necrotica Necrotica wrote:

I'd say it's a matter of Dream Theater being in a holding pattern these days; they're past their point of peak relevance and significance now, so now most of their work is being consumed by the more dedicated and hardcore fans, as opposed to a wider audience. I'm not sure if I would necessarily call it a decline, as much as simply the natural peak/valley cycle of these types of bands. Same goes with Iron Maiden: most people know what to expect from a new IM album, and it's clear that they'll never release a Number of the Beast or Powerslave again, but that doesn't really deter a smaller, more dedicated crop of fans from still checking the new stuff out.

Personally, I actually thought A View from the Top of the World was Dream Theater's best record in a decade Smile


Very well said. I feel you make some pretty good points. DT are way past 1992 with their peak innovations. Honestly, I love DT but I didn’t run out and buy their latest record.
A view from the top of the World isn’t leaps and bounds different than Distance over time. I would say it is redundant, but not in a really bad way. The music is absolute quality but I’m just not in the mood for another Distance Over time.

Will call it a matter of taste.

Edited by progbethyname - February 01 2023 at 16:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2023 at 16:26
Originally posted by mathman0806 mathman0806 wrote:

There's also an overall decline in active users here. PT's In Absentia has 2705 ratings. C/C has 301.

I would think that's a big % of the reason.....Simply look at the top 100 albums 2022. It's very heavy to eclectic/avant garde prog. I know there is some prog metal but it seems the flavor of PA is changing or the decline has been those genre listeners are gone that loved DT, hence no reviews like Octavarium or others.

I think for DT and me, it's just been a decline in production quality and overall creativity, Petrucci as producer has not been working for me...as well I've grown bored of Rudess's playing and let's not discuss James's vocals.

Beating a dead horse, but I think they should have listened to Portnoy and took a 5yr break.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2023 at 16:36
You know what guys. I could really use another Train of Thought and they hire a different producer and mixer.
I know DT have already captured that heavy spirit, but I honestly feel it is when they are at their best.
I think it is technical brilliance. Kevin “caveman” Shirley is a creative mixer, but for gods sakes don’t let him master the album. It’ll be hot. Lol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2023 at 16:41
Like most non stop artists, DT are on auto pilot. They need to step away for 5-7 years and give themselves time to recharge and look at other areas to see if they can make their music interesting again for both themselves and their fans. Perhaps changing a few players to see if that works. Not easy, but other bands have done the same.

Edited by SteveG - February 01 2023 at 16:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omphaloskepsis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2023 at 16:49
Originally posted by mathman0806 mathman0806 wrote:

There's also an overall decline in active users here. PT's In Absentia has 2705 ratings. C/C has 301.


Yep. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2023 at 17:11
I wouldn't say DT has declined. Sure, their music is samey, but they are still making money, and they need to pay bills. So rock on DT.

It's the consumer's choice if they want to support any artist. And fans come and go.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2023 at 17:20
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

I wouldn't say DT has declined. Sure, their music is samey, but they are still making money, and they need to pay bills. So rock on DT.

It's the consumer's choice if they want to support any artist. And fans come and go.



Decline is a harsh word. I perhaps wouldn’t describe the difference in direction and production value in that vain.

The important thing to note is that DT have gone into different directions and some are definitely more palatable than others depending on you! The individual.

For me. I love the Train of thought album. When they went balls to the walls to create the heaviest and most relentless thing imaginable, I thought this is when they were at their best.


Of course. That is my taste. What is yours? I think this thread should be about what era or albums does one appreciate the most from Dream Theater ?

It is not a decline, but a difference in style and listener preferences.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2023 at 19:16
ToT is also my fav DT album, next would be Awake probably.........IMO they have not come close to those records in terms of creativity.
I'm not a Kevin Shirley fan, he destroys the Iron Maiden albums. I think he mixed part of SDOIT but thankfully the late and great George Marino mastered it, sounds great! On ToT Howie Weinberg mastered it and is probably Shirley's best mixing job....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2023 at 19:19
Originally posted by mathman0806 mathman0806 wrote:

There's also an overall decline in active users here. PT's In Absentia has 2705 ratings. C/C has 301.


Hi,

I wonder if we have had "enough" of SW ... and while I do not dislike the material he does on his solo albums, I do think that C/C was not half as good as it might or should have been. I kinda think that he concentrated on the studio side of it a lot more than the music itself, causing the album to not sound as good as it could have been. 

I'm also wondering how much Colin meant to the band ... the stuff he is doing is super nice, and all of a sudden, the PT stuff is weak ... suggesting that they ended up missing a very important part of that wheel that worked together a long time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2023 at 19:26
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

...
I think for DT and me, it's just been a decline in production quality and overall creativity, Petrucci as producer has not been working for me...as well I've grown bored of Rudess's playing and let's not discuss James's vocals.

Beating a dead horse, but I think they should have listened to Portnoy and took a 5yr break.

Hi,

I think that part of the problem with DT is too much Petrucci, and not enough of the bass or keyboards, although seeing them as simple addons that don't factor much in the end in almost all work they try to put together.

The well-known fact that James lives elsewhere, is also an issue, sooner or later ... you can only go so far, before it begins sounding rather weak, or at least "not together" as it should have been. This is the same "curse" that operas have, when the "star" only comes in for one rehearsal and then leaves after three performances. In the end, it is not exactly a recipe for a good performance at all since the much-needed work of everyone together on a stage is broken up and ends up in fake expressions and poorly designed moments in terms of stage directions!

I would like to see Petrucci actually play guitar and not do so much thrashing ... and give the rest of the band a chance to contribute and add to the music ... but ... I wonder if DT's time is up and over, and their interest is fading into the sunset.


Edited by moshkito - February 02 2023 at 06:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2023 at 19:35
I agree on one thing that Myung is always buried in the mix, which is horrible. He is a great bass player and should be more out front.......Again, the production that Petrucci is doing is not the best decisions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bender99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2023 at 21:57
I'm a big DT fan but I admit I don't really care for any of their most recent releases. I agree that for most part, this seems to stem from Petrucci taking over the production and I assume just the whole leadership of the band.  DT certainly feels like less of a band now to me - it feels like James and John Myung are very much simply "supporting players", and even Jordan seems to have stagnated somewhat.

Watching a few of the groups older "making of" DVD's, it's apparent to me that Portnoy had a very good ear when it came to working out the overall sound of the songs and albums, and seemed very adept at getting his way when needed.  Regardless of his drumming ability, I think this is what the band really misses out on nowadays, by not having Portnoy there as a counterpoint to Petrucci.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2023 at 00:51
I would not say it's a decline, more like stagnation. They've become a bit predictable. 
I need to give the last album another chance, I listened to it a few times when it came out and then forgot about it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jared Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2023 at 02:27
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

I would not say it's a decline, more like stagnation. They've become a bit predictable.

I find it difficult to know where they should go, if anywhere to be honest and feel that they are damned if they do and damned if they don't... I think the last great album they made was probably Octavarium. After that, they took a slightly different direction with SC and parts of BC&SL, which ended up being an unsuccessful cul-de-sac they came out of after Mike's departure. ADTOE was actually very solid, but it offered nothing new while XIII seemed to me a bit of a safe 'DT by numbers' before we had tA, which was erm... anything but predictable.. Ouch  They then returned to a slightly more interesting 'DT by numbers' with DoT...

They seem to be stuck somewhere between the devil of pleasing their loyal but ageing fanbase and the deep blue sea of experimentation with all the risks that go with it...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2023 at 02:34
Originally posted by Jared Jared wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

I would not say it's a decline, more like stagnation. They've become a bit predictable.

I find it difficult to know where they should go, if anywhere to be honest and feel that they are damned if they do and damned if they don't... I think the last great album they made was probably Octavarium. After that, they took a slightly different direction with SC and parts of BC&SL, which ended up being an unsuccessful cul-de-sac they came out of after Mike's departure. ADTOE was actually very solid, but it offered nothing new while XIII seemed to me a bit of a safe 'DT by numbers' before we had tA, which was erm... anything but predictable.. Ouch  They then returned to a slightly more interesting 'DT by numbers' with DoT...

They seem to be stuck somewhere between the devil of pleasing their loyal but ageing fanbase and the deep blue sea of experimentation with all the risks that go with it...

I totally agree about Octavarium. 

The (Un)Astonishing was an incohesive mess for me, no flow for a concept album. Also it's not like they tried new things on that album either. Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PhideauxFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2023 at 04:11
A stagnation or a regression for me since 10 years. I think they are not the masters of "classicc" progressive metal anymore. For example, the new albums of Threshold and Evergrey are better thant the last DT. And the musicians of Dream Theater don't know how to play real modern progressive metal like Vola, Enslaved, Borknagar, ...

Edited by PhideauxFan - February 02 2023 at 04:11
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