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The Best Progressive Rock Band of The '60s?

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enigmatic View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote enigmatic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2023 at 07:00
Btw, some interviews by David Hughes from early 70s can be found here:
https://www.rocksbackpages.com/Library/Writer/david-hughes
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2023 at 07:30
Originally posted by enigmatic enigmatic wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

According to the liner notes of Caravan's debut LP, released October 1968, Progressive Rock bands (and movement) did exist in the late 60s.
The notes say:
"Caravan belong to a new breed of progressive rock groups - freeing themselves from the restricting conventions of pop music by using unusual time signatures and sophisticated harmonies. Their arrangements involve variations of tempo and dynamics of almost symphonic complexity".


I have a bad news David, this text is from 1972, not 1968. No one would write that in 1968. Progressive rock as a label/term wasn't defined in 1968. This is from 1972 MGM reissue of Caravan's debut. Liner notes were written by David Hughes who used to write for some independent UK magazines. Plenty of his interviews were with progressive rock artists / bands. The original liner notes from 1968 Verve release are completely different, written in typical 1960s style. Look in discogs.com. Find the LP, download the image of back cover to your PC, zoom it. There are some references to Hendrix and Jefferson Airplane, but nothing about progressive rock. "I think Caravan like Hendrix..(..) they work in the Airplane direction of overall sound, John Coltrane's sheets of sound, each tune constructed, built up with layers of sound."

If that is correct, it's certainly not bad news, Enigmatic, but very good to correct some important historical informations. I had it from Edward Macan's book Rocking the Classics, which I considered to be a reliable source.


Edited by David_D - January 05 2023 at 09:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote enigmatic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2023 at 10:58
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:


Which track on Mercator Projected for example don't you find progressive?

Groundbreaking, innovative album. I simply love it. My 3rd favorite album from 1969 releases, right after "In the Court.." and Soft Machine Vol. 2. Borderline progressive and proto-prog to my ears, not full blown progressive rock. Again, this is just my subjective opinion, we don't have to agree on everything siLLy puPPy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2023 at 14:03
It's astounding that Tull has been around since 1967 and is still [Anderson] making music & touring.  
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2023 at 15:19
Originally posted by Argentinfonico Argentinfonico wrote:

The Mothers of Invention without a doubt
Yep. Zappa had seven albums released in the 60's. How about the albums released by the big six of prog in the 60's? Floyd had four. Tull had two - first album was blues. Genesis had one. KC had one. Yes had one. ELP had zero.

Zappa was releasing records that had never been heard before, fusing all genres of music into something unheard of, new, and exciting. If the definition of progressive rock means to create music that is pushing boundaries, is not the popular stuff played on the radio, or the music does not have the repetitious verse - chorus - bridge - repeat - format. Zappa towers above any prog artist in the 60's.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Argentinfonico Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2023 at 16:33
^ You got that right, fella Wink
-Will I see you tonight?
-I never make plans that far ahead.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2023 at 04:06

On basis of the discussion so far, I see this important question to answer:

Can a band be considered Progressive Rock band before releasing a full blown Progressive Rock album?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2023 at 04:37
^That is subjective. What may be a "full blown" prog rock album for some isn't for others. I don't consider the KC debut or the Moody Blues full blown prog.

Edited by Grumpyprogfan - January 06 2023 at 04:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2023 at 05:54
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^That is subjective. What may be a "full blown" prog rock album for some isn't for others. I don't consider the KC debut or the Moody Blues full blown prog.

Surely agree, the question is more about what when not released album yet. Like KC in the period between being formed in January 69 and releasing ITCOTCK in October 69. 


Edited by David_D - January 06 2023 at 09:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote enigmatic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2023 at 06:57
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^That is subjective. What may be a "full blown" prog rock album for some isn't for others. I don't consider the KC debut or the Moody Blues full blown prog.


Question for you Grumpyprogfan - which album in your opinion is FIRST full blown progressive rock album ever recorded?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2023 at 07:09
Originally posted by enigmatic enigmatic wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:


Which track on Mercator Projected for example don't you find progressive?

Groundbreaking, innovative album. I simply love it. My 3rd favorite album from 1969 releases, right after "In the Court.." and Soft Machine Vol. 2. Borderline progressive and proto-prog to my ears, not full blown progressive rock. Again, this is just my subjective opinion, we don't have to agree on everything siLLy puPPy.


Guess it depends what you consider progressive. Granted KC introduced something mind blowing but just because it was the best doesn't mean it was the first. Not my opinion. That's just the definition of progressive rock by the majority. In the end it doesn't really matter. Just enjoy the music :)

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enigmatic View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote enigmatic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2023 at 08:38
^ Exactly. BTW, I just played Mercator Projected in the background while working. I work remotely from home. What a great frickin' album! Probably first true progressive rock album. By "true" I mean entire album can be considered as progressive rock versus one or two songs. It's still not full blown prog-rock, IMO. It misses the complexity, unconventional chord progressions, shifting time signatures included on ITCOTCK.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2023 at 08:55
^ the second album Snafu is even better, at least to my ears. Well even KC's debut isn't as complex as other albums to come. Henry Cow for example so where exactly the term "progressive rock" picks up from "adventurous art rock" will always be up to individual interpretation. Personally i'm OK with Hansson & Karlsson's Monument being considered the first prog rock album. The term doesn't mean ridiculously complex, it must means that rock has taken on elements of classical, jazz and other complex musical styles. Same with Days of Future Passed. Crazy time signatures are only one aspect of prog. We could debate this forever! Haha!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2023 at 09:30
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

What may be a "full blown" prog rock album for some isn't for others. I don't consider the KC debut or the Moody Blues full blown prog.

And I find Renaisannce's debut album more full blown than ITCOTCK.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2023 at 09:44
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ the second album Snafu is even better, at least to my ears. Well even KC's debut isn't as complex as other albums to come. Henry Cow for example so where exactly the term "progressive rock" picks up from "adventurous art rock" will always be up to individual interpretation. Personally i'm OK with Hansson & Karlsson's Monument being considered the first prog rock album. The term doesn't mean ridiculously complex, it must means that rock has taken on elements of classical, jazz and other complex musical styles. Same with Days of Future Passed. Crazy time signatures are only one aspect of prog. We could debate this forever! Haha!

I somehow feel the same with Days of Future Passed, but otherwise, to decide what to think, I usually compare to the typical standard of Prog Rock from the early 70s.


Edited by David_D - January 06 2023 at 11:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2023 at 09:52
Originally posted by enigmatic enigmatic wrote:

^ Exactly. BTW, I just played Mercator Projected in the background while working. I work remotely from home. What a great frickin' album! Probably first true progressive rock album. By "true" I mean entire album can be considered as progressive rock versus one or two songs. It's still not full blown prog-rock, IMO. It misses the complexity, unconventional chord progressions, shifting time signatures included on ITCOTCK.

I guess it's good to distinguish between those two.


Edited by David_D - January 06 2023 at 10:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2023 at 14:51
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by enigmatic enigmatic wrote:

I guess it depends on your own definition of progressive rock.
IMO, first full blown progressive rock album was ITCOTCK. It means that everything released before October 10th 1969 cannot be considered as progressive rock. The bands like the Nice, Procol Harum, Moody Blues were progressive (innovative, moving forward), but I personally wouldn't called them progressive rock bands. They definitely influenced many other bands that follow their steps.


Not true. Many albums that came before ITCOTCK are considered full blown prog.
KC was the one who popularized prog and turned it into a serious genre.

Examples:

Hansson & Karlsson "Monument" 1967
The Electric Prunes' "Mass In F Minor" 1967 and "Release Of An Oath" 1968
Caravan debut 1968
East of Eden - Mercator Projected  Febr 1969
Colosseum - Those Who Are About to Die Salute You Mar 1969
Ekseption - s/t July 1969
Zappa & Mothers - Uncle Meat Apr 1969
Van Der Graaf Generator - The Aerosol Grey Machine Sept 1969
High Tide - Sea Shanties also Oct 1969

Probably others but these are the ones i can think of on the spot :)

I'd add:
The Mothers of Invention Freak Out (1966) through Uncle Meat (1969)
Don Ellis Orchestra 'Live' at Monterey! (Jan 1967)
Strawberry Alarm Clock Incense and Peppermints (Oct. 1967)
The Moody Blues Days of Future Passed (Nov. 1967)
The Soft Machine s/t (December 1968)
John McLaughlin Extrapolation (Jan. 1969)
Chicago Chicago Transit Authority (April 1969)
Tony Williams Lifetime Emergency (Aug. 1969)
The Soft Machine Volume Two (Sept 1969)
maybe some Byrds, The Doors s/t debut (for "Light My Fire") and a Hendrix album or two--not to mention a Beatles album or two (or three).



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2023 at 02:19
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ the second album Snafu is even better, at least to my ears. Well even KC's debut isn't as complex as other albums to come. Henry Cow for example so where exactly the term "progressive rock" picks up from "adventurous art rock" will always be up to individual interpretation. Personally i'm OK with Hansson & Karlsson's Monument being considered the first prog rock album. The term doesn't mean ridiculously complex, it must means that rock has taken on elements of classical, jazz and other complex musical styles. Same with Days of Future Passed. Crazy time signatures are only one aspect of prog. We could debate this forever! Haha!

I somehow feel the same with Days of Future Passed, but otherwise, to decide what to think, I usually compare to the typical standard of Prog Rock from the early 70s.

Anyway, I see some good reason in considering the bands like The Moody Blues, Procol Harum, the Nice, The Soft Machine and Pink Floyd to be the first wave of Progressive Rock in UK.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2023 at 06:13

My personal favourite band of the 60s is Pink Floyd, also being very progressive already beginning in 1966 - even not in the
Symphonic but the Space Rock way. Pink Floyd was very appreciated too and the most important forerunner for Kosmische Rock.

Besides that, and not least, their albums from the 60s are still very appreciated today. Thumbs Up





Edited by David_D - January 07 2023 at 08:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2023 at 06:21
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by enigmatic enigmatic wrote:

 
...
According to the liner notes of Caravan's debut LP, released October 1968, Progressive Rock bands (and movement) did exist in the late 60s.
The notes say:
"Caravan belong to a new breed of progressive rock groups - freeing themselves from the restricting conventions of pop music by using unusual time signatures and sophisticated harmonies. Their arrangements involve variations of tempo and dynamics of almost symphonic complexity".
...


[QUOTE=enigmatic] 
...
I have a bad news David, this text is from 1972, not 1968. No one would write that in 1968. Progressive rock as a label/term wasn't defined in 1968. This is from 1972 MGM reissue of Caravan's debut. Liner notes were written by David Hughes who used to write for some independent UK magazines. Plenty of his interviews were with progressive rock artists / bands. The original liner notes from 1968 Verve release are completely different, written in typical 1960s style. 
...

Hi,

I think that David D is underestimating the musical ability of many of the folks in Caravan, and indeed almost all of Canterbury ... these were all well educated and about to become upper level students in music, and the rock bands, in some cases, were just some fun on the side, although I think they took them a bit more serious.

These were not school/street kids that decided they liked rock this and that ... and went out to create some "new" music. These were folks that knew what they were doing, but when they decided to do something together it had to be very different from the "norm" (WHICH WAS WHAT THE ART SCENE WAS ABOUT!!!)  .... however, I don't think that David D knows/understands the feelings at the time, and how so much of the music we like and consider "progressive" was not just a "song" in the same format as all others. To him, it's all songs, not music, and even someone like Hugh Hopper once said ... "I might as well go wash dishes if you are not here for the music!"

And the worst side of it, is that David D has no idea what the connection between many of the Canterbury folks and so many writers and artists, hanging around, including well-known actors. It's a different world when you are into an artistic group, instead of simply thinking "just another rock'n'roll song" (how pathetic!) or let's do a "progressive song" (they wouldn't know progressive from polka dot reggae!). 

The influences, when it comes to creativity are MASSIVE and they helped what became known as "progressive music", something that David D, I don't think, understands or can relate to.

I don't think that David D is always "wrong", he has many good posts out there, but knowing and understanding the history of some of these things is important ... it's bad enough that you can't tell people in this board that there is no difference between Damo and Kinski, because they will ignore it and have no idea why that comparison was made! Like Canterbury, "krautrock" was an art scene, not a rock music scene. SF was an art scene before it got corrupted by idiots with flowers in their hair! NY was an art scene, until someone thought that MM and a Tomato Soup can was more far out than the work itself as an art form ... it became the end of "art" in America!!!!

Maybe one day we will give "Progressive Music" some credit it deserves other than being just another pop song out there!


Edited by moshkito - January 07 2023 at 06:33
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