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Lewian ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 15151 |
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Is there any evidence that this information makes them better? By the way, even if you have data, it's still guessing, if informed guessing.
Edited by Lewian - December 07 2022 at 15:03 |
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Archisorcerus ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 02 2022 Location: Izmir Status: Offline Points: 2707 |
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It is not always guessing. I'm pretty certain that the Moroccan goalkeeper played with the concentration of the Spanish penalty takers. If you make such moves, it means that you bamboozle your "opponent". I cannot be sure, but I guess he, the goalkeeper, had a fixed (preconceived) move, and he didn't make gueesses there at all. It was a mental trick, I think.
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Nogbad_The_Bad ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team Joined: March 16 2007 Location: Boston Status: Online Points: 21321 |
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Guessing with better odds than 50:50 |
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18071 |
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Hi, Croatia showed how well they can play, and did what they had to do to contain Japan. Sadly, the Penalty Shootout was the lowest moment for this WC. Very disappointing end, but you have to bury your penalties, and Japan appeared to be afraid to take them. Brazil ... the samba was all over the place. They danced S. Korea from here to ... heaven knows where. If Brazil can open up this game going forward, I think that they will be a force. But can they get by tougher defenses? Morocco ... such an incredible victory. One of the things that we all hope to see happen ... and it makes the best movie ever. Portugal ... who needs that other guy? Left overs that have lost the taste! If I were him, I would retire ... I doubt he needs the money! Now comes the real thing ... the next 4 games!!! Here are my no-choices. I imagine Brazil/Argentina/Portugal and France would be the heavy favorites, but this WC is showing us something else. Cro-Brazil ... If Brazil plays like they did against SK ... I'm not sure that Croatia can compete evenly. Ned - Arg ... That coach is finding all the right moves ... but stopping Messi might take more than playing against an American team that lacked the smarts to play the better teams around the world! I don't want this to go to a Penalty Shootout, but it has the makings of it. I think it might depend on who scores first, and it's hard to not bet on Messi on this one! And he deserves it! A better game might be for Messi to provide two or three assists as he is a very good passer. Mor - Por ... Really difficult to figure out, but Portugal doesn't play the Spanish game and Morocco might have tough issues preventing them from scoring ... but that stone wall sure stopped Spain from coming near it! Eng- France .. the war of roses all over again. Will Mbappe do better than Kane ... I think so ... unless the English can unleash the long balls and runs for scores. France might not be a good team coming from behind, but if anyone can do it, I bet they can!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Lewian ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 15151 |
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The thing is, in my view, that goalkeepers can't take an "automatic data analytic" approach here. Of course information is information, so of course we can believe it's better than not having that information, but I do believe that goalkeepers should also take into account what actually happens and their intuition/experience about what it means if the penalty taker does this or that. If a fully data-based approach stops them from doing something based on what happens in the moment, I suspect it wouldn't be any better than not using the data at all, but of course it's hard to bring data together with their intuition of the moment; they can't do complex calculations at that point for sure. I'm not sure whether anyone knows, empirically, evaluated in a proper scientific way, whether having and using the data is actually better for the goalkeeper. Of course also the penalty-taker can not only have the data, but second guess based on the data what the goalkeeper is likely to do. All things taken into account, it may not make much of a difference, if any. Use of data in football is certainly useful in general, but in this situation I suspect the best that can be done is that (a) coaches can know who their best penalty takers are, and (b) people should know that data is used so they should produce some variation in what they're doing.
Edited by Lewian - December 08 2022 at 03:44 |
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Nogbad_The_Bad ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team Joined: March 16 2007 Location: Boston Status: Online Points: 21321 |
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Agreed
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
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Sean Trane ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20414 |
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TBH, Spain lost for sure, but Morrocco forgot to win.
TBH, I dislike the fact that Morrocco won that game, because they were not the strongest team on the field. Just like in olympic wresting you can get penalty points if you're being passive, I think a collective yellow card/should be handed to the defense-only strategy. Sure, Spain had sterile domination (ils ont joué à la baballe in Français) and shot too few times at the goal, but from what I saw of the game, Mor "parked the bus in front of their goal" (meaning they played a low block and rarely ventured on the other half of the field). Sooo, to my eyes, no way they should've gone to the 1/4. As for "CR7", it's been a few years since I've grown a solid dislike of the person he is. The guy was always arrogant and may have a reproachless healthy style of life - but that doesn't make you someone nice. He reminds so much of that Zlatan arsehole ... Two world leaders in football top a****lery, well ahead of Neymar (the grass flattener), if you ask me. And if he doesn't correct his own trajectory, MBappé is going directly in that direction, as well.
let's face it, Spain PG kickers were dilettante about their weak kicks... Unlike the Croat GK (who actually stopped the kicks), the Mor GK has much less merits (since a shot was wide and another was on the GP) Edited by Sean Trane - December 08 2022 at 05:40 |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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Lewian ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 15151 |
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Football is not circus. It has rules and if you win according to these rules you're fine. Morocco didn't play attractive football against Spain but they played with intelligence, and if a team wants to win the World Cup, they have to beat supposedly weaker teams who park the bus. Football has always been like this and I'm fine with it. Teams have to score more goals than the opponents to win, it's not a beauty contest. (Maybe this is influenced by my own - very limited and low level - experience on the pitch, in which the best I could ever achieve is to stop a forward who is supposedly the better player from scoring.
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Nogbad_The_Bad ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team Joined: March 16 2007 Location: Boston Status: Online Points: 21321 |
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Agreed - I've you're a better team find a way to score at least one goal in 90 minutes, don't keep using the same tactics endlessly, change something.
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18071 |
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Hi, From a perception stand point, guessing would not even enter the equation. One can not, and likely won't, try to see "ahead" of time, since we can't, but having the ability to "SEE" as it is discussed in a lot of parapsychology and psychic works, is another story. The guessing comes in when you can not derive anything from the player's movements to the ball. IF, and likely a big IF, you can find something there, I bet that your odds change considerably to your favor, and away from the kicking player. Besides the fact that many of them are doing simply to show case their hogdog factor! A lot of it, also depends on the ability you have as a keeper to adjust physically to what you see ... and in my way of seeing this, almost every keeper is way too slow reacting ... if they could "compress" that wasted milliseconds, I bet they would get better ... but the game is not interested in the psycho-analytical side of things ... there are perceptual things that can be internalized which makes the Messi's, the Jordan's and only a handful of other players the world over in many sports ... and that's their "gift", and something that can't be taught a whole lot ... witness Jordan trying to coach a basketball team ... he was aa failure because he was expecting everyone to have the same "touch" and "feel" he had, and he found that none had it! The same will apply to other sports. The only thing might be that as you get more and more into the "zen" of it all, you will likely quit the game, as not worth it anymore physically ... so taking the game to a different level of ability is only going to be determined by how much you can "remember" from all the notebook shots and plays that were shown to you ... a full dictionary that is impossible to catalog for most players and this is very clear in American Football when a quarterback does not fit the "system", meaning that its design is off the table for a lot of players, not just a quarterback!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Archisorcerus ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 02 2022 Location: Izmir Status: Offline Points: 2707 |
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I don't have to "face" anything here. I know what I watched and saw. You don't have to agree with my point, for sure. Whilst, You may have to face that your opinions are not the universal truths. |
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King of Loss ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: April 21 2005 Location: Boston, MA Status: Offline Points: 16889 |
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Speaking of the Moroccan goalkeeper, he is one of the best goalkeepers in La Liga, which is one of the top leagues. He is no slouch in goal let's just say that...
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Sean Trane ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20414 |
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well I watch football games solely for entertainment (as I do for most/all sports) and closed games (and I don't mean that the game was close ![]() ![]() ![]() Despite playing systematically defence in all team sports I played in high school or college (not quick enough to play forward), I always wanted to see superb goal action (even if I was overtaken ![]() ![]() ![]() I much prefered the Port-Switz game despite a lack of suspense and the blow-out score... But at least, Switzerland kept going at it ![]() ...but to each his own. .
Edited by Sean Trane - December 08 2022 at 14:42 |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18071 |
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Hi, Perception and Data are two opposite sides. Data, can become an issue as it adds up information that is not likely to get picked up clearly by your brain ... sometimes, it is simply too much! Perception is another story, and this is where the far out greats in many sports work ... time is slower for them and they are ready sooner, and this allows them to make adjustments faster ... which is what we see. To give you an idea of how much "you can see" and "catch", when I was at UCSB, they had an archery team, and one of the folks that came and goofed off with them, was a very old (guessing 75) man ... who had a very acute touch and several kudos for this and that. I saw him do this several times, and he would place himself by the bull's eye, and tell the girls to shoot ... and he would catch each arrow on one of his hands each and every time. THAT IS NOT DATA. That is perception on a level that we can not even conceive, let alone explain, and while I would not say that Pele, Messi, Maradona, Jordan, Brady and many others that are almost "supernatural" work on "data" as much as they do on watching and their brains being able to pick up bits and pieces, which they likely will not use ... why? When they do what they do, drive, pass, shoot, throw, kick ... it is a matter of instinct co-ordination between what you "saw" and the message to your feet or hands ... and you adjusted to get the result. You can now see how this really makes a difference for all the body contortions you got to see a Jordan do to get to the basket ... that stuff is instinctive and there is no "data". The penalty thing, is only different in that the studies around it are strictly mechanical, and sometimes it is not mechanical at all ... and if it isn't, the chance of stopping that kick ... probably less than 10% in my book. A lot can be done with soccer, and team sports ... the coordination with the folks forward or backwards would be the one thing that would gain the most right away ... and again, this is not a mental thing, but something that you have to communicate with your folks and then go to work, because from a certain millisecond on there is "no book" on how to do it, just how you respond to what you see. The more/better you see it, the better your response is. And this is important for the penalty takers, but I tend to think that too many of those folks are being shown too many things that are totally impossible for you and I to ruminate and disseminate some kind of favorable reaction from it ... I got one ... stand in place and spit at the guy that is gonna stop and go and stop and kick. If you don't move, I bet he misses!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18071 |
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Hi,
DREADED PENALTIES AGAIN! Croatia took it to Brazil who missed 2 penalties! More surprises at the later game? ... this is getting to be a lot of fun ... no one knows a thing!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Archisorcerus ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 02 2022 Location: Izmir Status: Offline Points: 2707 |
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Brazil are out as well! Plus, one of the teams I supported eliminated them!
Spain and Brazil are out! Grand felicities for me, hahah! |
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omphaloskepsis ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 19 2011 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 6802 |
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Argentina vs. Croatia. Now that Brazil is out, Argentina is my last favorite team.
Edited by omphaloskepsis - December 09 2022 at 19:19 |
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Archisorcerus ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 02 2022 Location: Izmir Status: Offline Points: 2707 |
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Argentina vs. Croatia. Well, I have mixed feelings for this match. I support both teams, and one of them are gonna lost. On the other hand, one of them will normally see the final match. I hope that either team could be the champions!
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Nogbad_The_Bad ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team Joined: March 16 2007 Location: Boston Status: Online Points: 21321 |
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Brazil really needed more than 1 versus Croatia those guys are tough.
18 yellow cards from two unpleasant teams with a Clueless referee in the other game. Edited by Nogbad_The_Bad - December 09 2022 at 19:46 |
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
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bardberic ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 02 2021 Location: PA, USA/Israel Status: Offline Points: 886 |
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Holy f**king sh*t:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/grant-wahl-soccer-journalist-world-cup-11670639526 Grant Wahl dead at 48 y/o in Qatar... For those who don't know he was like the most important soccer journalist in America. Edited by bardberic - December 09 2022 at 22:08 |
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