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How to define and classify "Progressive Rock"?

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David_D View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 10:02
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


If talking about Progressive Rock sub-genres on RYM, they're:

Avant-Prog (incl. RIO and Zeuhl)
Brutal Prog
Canterbury Scene
Neo-Prog
Symphonic Prog


Lot's of what we consider sub-genres here appear under other hierarchies on RYM, Fusion is under Jazz, Progressive Electronic is under Electronic, Progressive Metal is under Metal, Krautrock is under Experimental Rock, etc.

So it is.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 10:07
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

... as a listener, classifications and other descriptors help me understand what I hear. It does not take away from the listening experience. 

No, it doesn't, on the contrary, and here we go once again, Cristi. Handshake

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 10:58

But there's always this question how we want to define and classify, and why. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 11:01
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


But there's always this question how we want to define and classify, and why. Smile

always? Confused
Suitkees answered that already on the previous page. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote earlyprog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 11:34
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


But there's always this question how we want to define and classify, and why. Smile

I still want you to explain why you want to 'define' differently than PA.

After all this is PA not Allmusic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 12:15
Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

But there's always this question how we want to define and classify, and why. Smile

I still want you to explain why you want to 'define' differently than PA.

When I'm ready for it and find it appropriate to do, I'll do it - even I'd say, there's an okay answer for such question in all my posts in this blog if somebody's in hurry.

Besides that, I haven't seen a really definition of Progressive Rock on PA which I can compare with my own, or maybe the two I want to use at the time I want to answer a question like this. Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 12:21
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

But there's always this question how we want to define and classify, and why. Smile

I still want you to explain why you want to 'define' differently than PA.

When I'm ready for it and find it appropriate to do, I'll do it - even I'd say, there's an okay answer for such question in all my posts in this blog if somebody's in hurry.

Besides that, I haven't seen a really definition of Progressive Rock on PA which I can compare with my own, or maybe the two I want to use at the time I want to answer a question like this. Wink

We all have our own definitions of what is and what isn't prog, and that's perfectly fine. For instance, I disagree with Tori Amos, Kate Bush, Miles Davis, Roxy Music & Talk Talk being classed as prog, but I'm glad they're all here on ProgArchives. The more the merrier in my view. Thumbs Up


Edited by Psychedelic Paul - August 17 2022 at 12:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 12:28
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

We all have our own definitions of what is and what isn't prog, and that's perfectly fine. For instance, I disagree with Tori Amos, Kate Bush, Miles Davis, Roxy Music & Talk Talk being classed as prog, but I'm glad they're all here on ProgArchives. The more the merrier in my view. Thumbs Up

No, we do not, and no, it's not fine. 
if everyone came with their own definition of things, there would not be any consensus in anything.

I can make my own list of bands I do not think should be here on PA, but that does not mean i have my own definition of what prog is. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 12:35
Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

But there's always this question how we want to define and classify, and why. Smile

I still want you to explain why you want to 'define' differently than PA.

Something else, in the thread "Plans on PA for becoming an all-music site?" some collaborators are argueing for expanding/changing the understanding of Prog on PA, so it's not only me who might like to "define" differently.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 12:37
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

We all have our own definitions of what is and what isn't prog, and that's perfectly fine. For instance, I disagree with Tori Amos, Kate Bush, Miles Davis, Roxy Music & Talk Talk being classed as prog, but I'm glad they're all here on ProgArchives. The more the merrier in my view. Thumbs Up

No, we do not, and no, it's not fine.
 
Yes we do. At least, I do. I agree with Paul regarding the artists he cites: I myself would never have considered them to be prog, and I still don't, despite PA's classification.

There will never be a consensus on the definition of what prog is anyway, so don't consider whatever definition as the only valid one. Not even PA's. It isn't. It never will be.


Edited by suitkees - August 17 2022 at 12:39

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 12:47
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

We all have our own definitions of what is and what isn't prog, and that's perfectly fine. For instance, I disagree with Tori Amos, Kate Bush, Miles Davis, Roxy Music & Talk Talk being classed as prog, but I'm glad they're all here on ProgArchives. The more the merrier in my view. Thumbs Up

No, we do not, and no, it's not fine.
 
Yes we do. At least, I do. I agree with Paul regarding the artists he cites: I myself would never have considered them to be prog, and I still don't, despite PA's classification.

There will never be a consensus on the definition of what prog is anyway, so don't consider whatever definition as the only valid one. Not even PA's. It isn't. It never will be.

Not what I meant at all. 
As collabs, we often talk what artist is to accepted or not, and believe it or not we agree more than we disagree. So there is consensus.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 12:52
^ That's not what I'm talking about. There can be consensus between collaborators about which artist to accept or not to enter the PA database, that does not at all affect an eventual definition of what is "prog" or not. You can have a consensus about an artist/an album, but you probably will never have consensus about what is exactly prog.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 12:53
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

But there's always this question how we want to define and classify, and why. Smile

I still want you to explain why you want to 'define' differently than PA.

Something else, in the thread "Plans on PA for becoming an all-music site?" some collaborators are argueing for expanding/changing the understanding of Prog on PA, so it's not only me who might like to "define" differently.


I don't remember seeing any of that in that thread, quotes please.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 13:02
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

^ That's not what I'm talking about. There can be consensus between collaborators about which artist to accept or not to enter the PA database, that does not at all affect an eventual definition of what is "prog" or not. You can have a consensus about an artist/an album, but you probably will never have consensus about what is exactly prog.

but how can we agree or disagree whether an artist is progressive or not if we do not have a consensus on what is prog or what makes an artist progressive. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 13:11
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

^ That's not what I'm talking about. There can be consensus between collaborators about which artist to accept or not to enter the PA database, that does not at all affect an eventual definition of what is "prog" or not. You can have a consensus about an artist/an album, but you probably will never have consensus about what is exactly prog.

but how can we agree or disagree whether an artist is progressive or not if we do not have a consensus on what is prog or what makes an artist progressive. 


Haha..! Well, that's a problem for you, Collaborators. You have your standards/instructions and/or sub-genre definitions that may be your guidelines. But your decisions do not necessarily meet with an approval of the "general" public, and the genre (or sub-genre) attributed to an artist may not be satisfactory to everyone.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 13:14
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

^ That's not what I'm talking about. There can be consensus between collaborators about which artist to accept or not to enter the PA database, that does not at all affect an eventual definition of what is "prog" or not. You can have a consensus about an artist/an album, but you probably will never have consensus about what is exactly prog.

but how can we agree or disagree whether an artist is progressive or not if we do not have a consensus on what is prog or what makes an artist progressive. 


Haha..! Well, that's a problem for you, Collaborators. You have your standards/instructions and/or sub-genre definitions that may be your guidelines. But your decisions do not necessarily meet with an approval of the "general" public, and the genre (or sub-genre) attributed to an artist may not be satisfactory to everyone.

I give up. I don't even like this topic, what am I doing here?! ConfusedLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 13:56
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:


As collabs, we often talk what artist is to accepted or not, and believe it or not we agree more than we disagree. So there is consensus.

"We agree more than we disagree" is a much weaker statement than "there is consensus". Just saying. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 14:00
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:


As collabs, we often talk what artist is to accepted or not, and believe it or not we agree more than we disagree. So there is consensus.

"We agree more than we disagree" is a much weaker statement than "there is consensus". 

We agree because of consensus. Disagreements are rare which is a great thing. 
What am I missing here? Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 15:09
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:


As collabs, we often talk what artist is to accepted or not, and believe it or not we agree more than we disagree. So there is consensus.

"We agree more than we disagree" is a much weaker statement than "there is consensus". 

We agree because of consensus. Disagreements are rare which is a great thing. 
What am I missing here? Confused

I'd say that consensus is constituted by agreement, rather than being a cause of it. You have consensus to the degree that you agree, and no further. By the way, as Prog Reviewer I can watch the team threads and disagreement isn't that rare in my perception. Yes, you agree more than you disagree, but there's enough disagreement to find the statement that there is overall consensus dubious (I'm not specifically referring to teams of which you are a member).

Generally I think that you miss the fact that pragmatic use and degrees of agreement are not criteria of truth or correctness. Yes it is useful and pragmatic to have well defined genres and in a team it is useful to try to agree on genre definitions. The PA definitions result from a long negotiation process and have been changed at times. There are some inclusions and exclusions with which a number of collaborators don't agree, and things may change in the future. The PA definitions are pragmatic to a certain extent and they are agreed to a certain extent, as the current manifestation of the negotiation process that may go on. However they do not refer to any objective truth; they are constructed in this way not because this is the only correct way of doing it, but because something like this is needed, so some agreement should be reached, which could as well be different, but now it is like this.

The current definitions can be defended on pragmatic grounds, but they are ultimately not binding for anyone outside the process in which they are used, i.e., for accepting, rejecting, and categorising PA entries. Who does not take part in this can well have different personal definitions (or refer to different places where there are different categories); actually this even holds for collabs as long as they are not specifically  involved in such decisions, and in fact even if involved in such decisions, as disagreement may be rare but happens.

(Though I'd probably agree with you thinking that if somebody comes up with some ad hoc genre definitions and claims that these are better than those of PA based on the odd decision that they don't like, we can suspect that this person underestimates the thought, effort, and controversy that has gone into the PA definitions and may well underestimate their power.)


Edited by Lewian - August 17 2022 at 15:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 15:30
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:


As collabs, we often talk what artist is to accepted or not, and believe it or not we agree more than we disagree. So there is consensus.

"We agree more than we disagree" is a much weaker statement than "there is consensus". 

We agree because of consensus. Disagreements are rare which is a great thing. 
What am I missing here? Confused

I'd say that consensus is constituted by agreement, rather than being a cause of it. You have consensus to the degree that you agree, and no further. By the way, as Prog Reviewer I can watch the team threads and disagreement isn't that rare in my perception. Yes, you agree more than you disagree, but there's enough disagreement to find the statement that there is overall consensus dubious (I'm not specifically referring to teams of which you are a member).

Generally I think that you miss the fact that pragmatic use and degrees of agreement are not criteria of truth or correctness. Yes it is useful and pragmatic to have well defined genres and in a team it is useful to try to agree on genre definitions. The PA definitions result from a long negotiation process and have been changed at times. There are some inclusions and exclusions with which a number of collaborators don't agree, and things may change in the future. The PA definitions are pragmatic to a certain extent and they are agreed to a certain extent, as the current manifestation of the negotiation process that may go on. However they do not refer to any objective truth; they are constructed in this way not because this is the only correct way of doing it, but because something like this is needed, so some agreement should be reached, which could as well be different, but now it is like this.

The current definitions can be defended on pragmatic grounds, but they are ultimately not binding for anyone outside the process in which they are used, i.e., for accepting, rejecting, and categorising PA entries. Who does not take part in this can well have different personal definitions (or refer to different places where there are different categories); actually this even holds for collabs as long as they are not specifically  involved in such decisions, and in fact even if involved in such decisions, as disagreement may be rare but happens.

(Though I'd probably agree with you thinking that if somebody comes up with some ad hoc genre definitions and claims that these are better than those of PA based on the odd decision that they don't like, we can suspect that this person underestimates the thought, effort, and controversy that has gone into the PA definitions and may well underestimate their power.)

I was just trying to say everyone coming with their own definition(s) is a bad idea. 
Next time I'll be more careful to not get baited in threads about definitions and classifications...
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