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Is Italian prog epigonic?
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jamesbaldwin View Drop Down
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    Posted: May 29 2022 at 14:27
The musicologist and jazz guitarist Enrico Merlin has compiled a book containing 1000 records of twentieth century music.

Music without barriers: from Mahler to Opeth.

Not only western music.

In his book, the criterion he followed to make his selection is exposed:

As Merlin specifies, the criterion is NOT to select the "Best Albums", it is NOT to select "The Most Beautiful albums".

The criterion is: "the historical importance of each work, especially taking into account the intrinsic innovative content from the perspective of a music historian who is also a musician."

The assumption is that music always evolves, and that the evolution of music depends on the evolution of three of its characteristics:

- melody
- harmony
- rhythm

but, starting from the twentieth century, with recording techniques, with electric and electronic instruments, it is necessary to take into account three other parameters that DO NOT appear in the musical score:

- musical timbre
- dynamics
- expressiveness.

According to these criteria, Merlin has given ample space to musicians who during their career have developed very different creative solutions, while other musicians who have remained very faithful to one of their lines (a sound, for example, a genre, etc.) have been less represented. 




According to Merlin the Italian Progressive is epigonic, derivative of the English one, and in fact in his encyclopedia he did NOT insert:

PFM
BANCO
ORME
ROSENBACH MUSEUM
MAXOPHONE
OSANNA
BALLETTO DI BRONZO

None of these, that is to say the most highly rated Italians in PA, are present in his ranking.

Who is present then?

1) Area with Arbeit Macht Frei
2) Demetrio Stratos with Cantare la voce

Merlin considers the amalgamation of Area's sound to be very unique, and in particular the use of Demetrio Stratos' voice.

Then, from the jazz-rock point of view, Merlin considers notable the sound of

3) PERIGEO with Azimut
4) NAPOLI CENTRALE with the debut

Two bands that have been able to mix Miles Davis' jazz-rock with Neapolitan ethnic and Mediterranean sounds.

Merlin only saves these 4 albums of the Italian prog.

What do you think about it?


Edited by jamesbaldwin - May 29 2022 at 14:33
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Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Merlin only saves these 4 albums of the Italian prog. What do you think about it?
Well Merlin must not think Italian prog is true prog.
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"Epigonic" is too harsh a word here. Maybe some of the bands were influenced by British prog, but overall a lot of bands went beyond these influences. Listen to something like Arti & Mestieri's Tilt for example and if "epigone" is what you think, then i am wrong. Smile
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I think people sometimes overthink all of this. It’s music, just music.

As I said on a recent review, you could argue that every single musician since Ug the Neanderthal picked up a bone and started hitting a skin drum and discovered some interesting noises that somebody influences somebody else.

There was, on PA, a massive row a few years back. I started it, and regretted it pretty much instantly. I wanted to start a debate about sub-genres, or more to the point was making an argument to get rid of all or most of the bloody things on the site. I made an argument that RPI was, basically, symphonic prog sung in Italian, and I received a massive load of abuse for said argument. It made me resign as a collaborator, and I learned an important lesson then.

That lesson was, don’t overanalyse. Don’t overthink. Don’t try to apportion this band to that sub-genre, or that band to that particular pigeonhole. Just enjoy the music, or not, as the case might be. If you enjoy it, tell the world and tell them why. If you don’t, then tell the world and tell them why in a respectful manner, because the artist put their heart and soul into the musical product you don’t like (I have not always lived up to those lofty ideals, but I do try my best).


Edited by lazland - May 29 2022 at 15:31
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

"Epigonic" is too harsh a word here. Maybe some of the bands were influenced by British prog, but overall a lot of bands went beyond these influences. Listen to something like Arti & Mestieri's Tilt for example and if "epigone" is what you think, then i am wrong. Smile

I was just listening to Tilt (by Arti e Mestieri) today (and yesterday), Cristi, and found myself reminded of many, many instances that reminded me, whether in sound, riff, melody, or chord progression, of other bands (including PFM and Mahavishnu Orchestra) but sometimes the music it reminds me of came later like Jean-Luc Ponty and Bruford/UK, so, in a way, good call, Cristi!
 
Otherwise, Lorenzo, very interesting topic! Thank you for sharing. I know several of my reviews of 1971-74 RPI  "classics" contain many references to bands like Uriah Heep, Led Zeppelin, Mahavishnu Orchestra, as well as Genesis, Yes, ELP, King Crimson, Mike Oldfield, Procol Harum, Weather Report, etc. (I always feel weird that I find so few VDGG/Hammill similarities when I know they were a very popular band touring in Italia in the 1970s.) Still, I feel that some of the classical, religious, folk, and operatic in localized Italian culture lent themselves to the peculiarly "Italian" sound that RPI bands have earned. Interesting.
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Sounds like an interesting book just to discover new music however the Italians were quite unique in how they carried out their prog. Each of the major prog bands from the 70s had some very interesting and unique prog albums. Sounds like this guy is only going for the absolute most unique and that's an interesting avenue to pursue. Area certainly did succeed in crafting a completely new sound not even close to any other Italian artist. Epigonic is definitely too harsh of a word though.

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Being a numbers man, the first thing I wonder is about the statistics... so there are 1000, I suppose international, albums. All genres, all over the world. You ask whether 4/1000 for Italian prog is too few. I'm not so sure. How many prog albums are there overall in this collection? How many Italian albums? One country, one genre, reaching say 10 would be a lot, don't you think? That's 1% and only leaves space for 99 more "genre-countries" of this size. I'd expect maybe around 25 countries to feature prominently in such a collection, rather more, some much larger than Italy, and at least 25 genres of the overall impact of prog or higher. Let's say I'd expect prog overall to have at most 40, rather 20-30, and Italy would be well served with having 4 out of those. (Even if it were just 2, not counting the jazz rock, 10% of all prog would arguably be about right, so only if there are far more than 20 prog, they'd have a case for complaining, but then the context would be that prog overall may be overrepresented.)


Edited by Lewian - May 30 2022 at 03:35
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^ Maths is good. Smile
 
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Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

I think people sometimes overthink all of this. It’s music, just music.
Sure. But to overthink music is sort of a musicologist's job, isn't it?
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If you look up, say, Per Un Amico on Wikipedia, the genre label is simply 'progressive rock'. But then, that goes for most things prog, except the likes of zeuhl and krautrock which tend to be seen as different genres. I don't recall having seen labels such as 'eclectic prog', 'symphonic prog' or 'crossover prog' anywhere but on PA, so I guess for most people it is all just prog...


Edited by The Anders - May 30 2022 at 06:24
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Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

I think people sometimes overthink all of this. It’s music, just music.

As I said on a recent review, you could argue that every single musician since Ug the Neanderthal picked up a bone and started hitting a skin drum and discovered some interesting noises that somebody influences somebody else.
...
Hi,

Thank you. With only one very small detail ...  Ug hit a rock, or another Neanderthal ... I'm not sure they had invented skin drums then! LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

...
That lesson was, don’t overanalyse. Don’t overthink. Don’t try to apportion this band to that sub-genre, or that band to that particular pigeonhole. 
...

I'm not sure that this is going too far with today's audience, most of which more often than not are incapacitated by commercial music, and then when they hear something different, it is always odd, wrong, and out of left field somewhere!

I, personally, don't like the pigeonholes because of all the poop in them. First of all, too much is "decided" based on the "sound" alone, and this says absolutely nothing about the composition, or the work itself and its mechanics that work it into what could/would/might be a different state of mind, and thought.

For this reason alone, a lot of "metal" would fall off for not being original at all ... meaning that all we are doing is adding more copies to the copies and what we considered "originals", something that we can not even agree, since most of the folks voting and making these decisions, in my eye and ear, do not have a strong enough background in the HISTORY of the music over the years, and seeing another Admin make what amounts to a really bad comment on a band's this or that, to me, just shows that the folks deciding these things, probably shouldn't be there, but there is not much you can do when the leadership lacks the ability to tell the difference, IF that is the case!

Each country's music is never epigonic ... it just is a part of its culture and tendencies and other local details that might make it seem "epigonic", but it likely is not.

"A second-rate imitator or follower, especially of an artist or a philosopher"

The other issue here is that, IN GENERAL, all instruments sound the same ... and many times saying that some band from Milan sounds like Genesis just because one of the synths used is the same or a related version, and to me, that is a serious CORRUPTION of the evaluation of the music, which ends up being, then, considered "epigonic" because the listener can not tell the difference in how the instruments are used and show on the scales/notes for the band. For me, right away, that writer is just another middle class nobody that does not listen to music and every time he does, it always sounds like some "master" out there, something which is soooooooooooooooooooo VERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRY academic as to stink up the place and PA in one fart!

Again, we have to get smarter about this, and I don't want to give anyone credit for something so stupid as to consider all music that way ... he obviously has never heard Eastern music, African music, Latin American music or equivalent, and all he knows is the "western pop/rock" idioms in music. The same is to be said about that book about the "instruments" ... which is ridiculous, when it is the player that matters, not the instrument, and it becomes somewhat of a selling point for many music centers by suggesting that this instrument is better than all the others ... like the Fender Jazz that Jaco used still is not superior to almost all of the stuff being done out there on 5 or 6 string basses! 

Some folks don't see the forest for the trees. Or better yet, they see a tree and immediately call it a forest! ConfusedConfusedConfusedConfused
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Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

I think people sometimes overthink all of this. It’s music, just music.

As I said on a recent review, you could argue that every single musician since Ug the Neanderthal picked up a bone and started hitting a skin drum and discovered some interesting noises that somebody influences somebody else.

There was, on PA, a massive row a few years back. I started it, and regretted it pretty much instantly. I wanted to start a debate about sub-genres, or more to the point was making an argument to get rid of all or most of the bloody things on the site. I made an argument that RPI was, basically, symphonic prog sung in Italian, and I received a massive load of abuse for said argument. It made me resign as a collaborator, and I learned an important lesson then.

That lesson was, don’t overanalyse. Don’t overthink. Don’t try to apportion this band to that sub-genre, or that band to that particular pigeonhole. Just enjoy the music, or not, as the case might be. If you enjoy it, tell the world and tell them why. If you don’t, then tell the world and tell them why in a respectful manner, because the artist put their heart and soul into the musical product you don’t like (I have not always lived up to those lofty ideals, but I do try my best).

I thought Italian prog was symphonic prog too. Glad I wasn't around for that one. I would have got banned.

Edited by SteveG - May 30 2022 at 08:43
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Being a numbers man, the first thing I wonder is about the statistics... so there are 1000, I suppose international, albums. All genres, all over the world. You ask whether 4/1000 for Italian prog is too few. I'm not so sure. How many prog albums are there overall in this collection? How many Italian albums? One country, one genre, reaching say 10 would be a lot, don't you think? That's 1% and only leaves space for 99 more "genre-countries" of this size. I'd expect maybe around 25 countries to feature prominently in such a collection, rather more, some much larger than Italy, and at least 25 genres of the overall impact of prog or higher. Let's say I'd expect prog overall to have at most 40, rather 20-30, and Italy would be well served with having 4 out of those. (Even if it were just 2, not counting the jazz rock, 10% of all prog would arguably be about right, so only if there are far more than 20 prog, they'd have a case for complaining, but then the context would be that prog overall may be overrepresented.)

You're right.

I must write the prog albums included by Merlin in his ranking.

I start with the leaders of PA Top 100 of all time.

YES:
1) The Yes Album
2) Close to the Edge
3) 90125

PINK FLOYD:
1) The Piper at the Gates of Dawn
2) Ummagumma
3) Meddle
4) The Dark Side
5) The Wall
+ SYD BARRETT: The Madcap Laughs

GENESIS:
1) Selling England
+ PETER GABRIEL:
1) III
2) So 
3) Passion

KING CRIMSON: 
1) In the Court of....
2) Larks Tongues in Aspic
3) Discipline
4) Thrak
FRIPP + ENO: 
No Pussyfooting
FRIPP:
A Blessing.. Vol II

JETHRO TULL:
1) Aqualung
2) Heavy Horses

VAN DER GRAAF GENERATOR:
1) The Least We Can Do
PETER HAMMILL: /

PFM: /
BANCO DEL MUTUO SOCCORSO: /
MUSEO ROSENBACH:/
ORME:/
mAXOOPHONE:/

CAMEL: /

Rush:
1) 2112

FRANK ZAPPA:
1) Lumpy Gravy
2) Hot Rats
3) Lather
4) Joe's Garage
5) Shut Up
6) London Orchestra
7) Jazz from Hell
8) Civilization Phaze III


MCLAUGHLIN: 
Extrapolation
My Goals Beyond
Shakti
MAHAVSHNU ORCHESTRA
The Inner Mountain Flame

MIKE OLDFIELD:
1) Tubular Bells

MILES DAVIS:
1) Round About Midnight
2) Ascensour
3) Kind of Blue
4) My Funny...
5) Miles Smiles
6) Bitches Brew
7) On the Corner
8) We Want Miles
+ GIL EVANS: Skethes of SPain

GONG:
1) Camembert Electrique


GENTLE GIANT:
1) Octopus

CARAVAN: 
1) In The Land of Grey and Pink

ROBERT WYATT: Rock Bottom +
SOFT MACHINE: 
1) Vol I and II (box)
2) Vol. III
KEVIN AYERS: 
1) Whatevershebringswesing
MATCHING MOLE:
Matching Mole
ALLAN HOLDSWORTH:
Road Games

NATIONAL HEALTH:
Of Queues

EL&P:
1) Tarkus
2) Pictures

AREA: 
1) Arbeit Macht Frei

SANTANA: 
1) Abraxas
2) Caravanserrai

SUPERTRAMP:
1) Breakfast in America

TOOL
Aenima

OPETH:
Still Life

BACAMARTE:/
HARMONIUM:/
HACKETT:/
HAMMILL:/
MAGMA:/
RENAISSANCE:/
BUBU:/
AL DI MEOLA:/
HATFIELD:/

ANGLAGARD: /
WOBBLER:/
ALL TRAPS ON EARTH:/

MARILLION: /
IQ:/
STEVEN WILSON: /
PORCUPINE TREE:/
CARDIACS:/


DREAM THEATER: /
RIVERSIDE: /
ESKATON: /
GORGOUTS: /
DEATH:/
RETURN TO FOREVER:/
BILLY COBHAM:/
EDGE OF SANITY:/
RIVERSIDE:/
PAIN OF SALVATION:/
QUEENSRYCHE:/


Edited by jamesbaldwin - May 30 2022 at 11:00
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^Ay! That's a LOT of prog indeed! It also shows that the list is very subjective. I mean, all such lists are subjective in one way or another, but quite certainly the author doesn't care much for balance and representativity when listing. Almost 1% of the "most important" 1000 albums are made by Frank Zappa? I ask you! Chances are you'll find some whole countries that for sure have contributed to 20th century great music that have fewer albums listed than Frank alone!

I can see why you miss more RPI, but then as a German I can complain even more, I mean where are Can, Tangerine Dream, Kraftwerk? And France? Where is Magma? (Oh, I just realise that you may not yet even have listed all prog!?) Then given that there's two "core prog" Italian albums listed, it isn't exactly the best representation of RPI to have Demetrio Stratos fronting them both. (Of course I'm not saying that Zappa or Stratos shouldn't be listed at all, but...)

Anyway, everyone can make the lists they like, but for sure not being listed here doesn't mean that much. Surely it doesn't mean everyone who isn't listed is epigonic.


Edited by Lewian - May 30 2022 at 10:58
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

^Ay! That's a LOT of prog indeed! It also shows that the list is very subjective. I mean, all such lists are subjective in one way or another, but quite certainly the author doesn't care much for balance and representativity when listing. Almost 1% of the "most important" 1000 albums are made by Frank Zappa? I ask you! Chances are you'll find some whole countries that for sure have contributed to 20th century great music that have fewer albums listed than Frank alone!

I can see why you miss more RPI, but then as a German I can complain even more, I mean where are Can, Tangerine Dream, Kraftwerk? And France? Where is Magma? (Oh, I just realise that you may not yet even have listed all prog!?) Then given that there's two "core prog" Italian albums listed, it isn't exactly the best representation of RPI to have Demetrio Stratos fronting them both. (Of course I'm not saying that Zappa or Stratos shouldn't be listed at all, but...)

Anyway, everyone can make the lists they like, but for sure not being listed here doesn't mean that much. Surely it doesn't mean everyone who isn't listed is epigonic.


Now the message is edited.


GERMANY: tHERE ARE:


CAN, two albums
FAUST 
POPOL VUH, two albums
TANGERINE DREAM
SCHULTZE
AMOON DUUL.



Edited by jamesbaldwin - May 30 2022 at 11:06
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Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

I think people sometimes overthink all of this. It’s music, just music.

As I said on a recent review, you could argue that every single musician since Ug the Neanderthal picked up a bone and started hitting a skin drum and discovered some interesting noises that somebody influences somebody else.

There was, on PA, a massive row a few years back. I started it, and regretted it pretty much instantly. I wanted to start a debate about sub-genres, or more to the point was making an argument to get rid of all or most of the bloody things on the site. I made an argument that RPI was, basically, symphonic prog sung in Italian, and I received a massive load of abuse for said argument. It made me resign as a collaborator, and I learned an important lesson then.

That lesson was, don’t overanalyse. Don’t overthink. Don’t try to apportion this band to that sub-genre, or that band to that particular pigeonhole. Just enjoy the music, or not, as the case might be. If you enjoy it, tell the world and tell them why. If you don’t, then tell the world and tell them why in a respectful manner, because the artist put their heart and soul into the musical product you don’t like (I have not always lived up to those lofty ideals, but I do try my best).

Clap

It's often the most uncreative, close-minded people that think they have to come up with super-articulate genres, labels, and titles for everything.

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Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

...
It's often the most uncreative, close-minded people that think they have to come up with super-articulate genres, labels, and titles for everything.

Hi,

Careful. You might be pointing a silly toe to someone here on this thread!

To me, and I say this all the time, things are different. After 50 years of solid listening, I have a really hard time even selecting the "best" (what bs!!!) album, or "best" (such lack of intelligence) guitarist, or "best"(dumbest time keeper and snare drum user!") drummer.

It simply does not factor anymore, and all it says is that how it is all used in its own "realm" and "specialty" that makes the music far out and attractive. Thus, it is easy for me to say that anytime we meet, YET AGAIN, another person pushing the commercial side of things with the objective/subjective sheep dip, you know right away that such a listener is very limited, and the writer? EVEN WORSE ... if they don't resort to numbers, they go after the color of instruments ... wow ... such powerful symbols for the mememe generation! It says it all, really!
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Points: 5986 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2022 at 17:11
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

"Epigonic" is too harsh a word here. Maybe some of the bands were influenced by British prog, but overall a lot of bands went beyond these influences. Listen to something like Arti & Mestieri's Tilt for example and if "epigone" is what you think, then i am wrong. Smile

I was just listening to Tilt (by Arti e Mestieri) today (and yesterday), Cristi, and found myself reminded of many, many instances that reminded me, whether in sound, riff, melody, or chord progression, of other bands (including PFM and Mahavishnu Orchestra) but sometimes the music it reminds me of came later like Jean-Luc Ponty and Bruford/UK, so, in a way, good call, Cristi!
 
Otherwise, Lorenzo, very interesting topic! Thank you for sharing. I know several of my reviews of 1971-74 RPI  "classics" contain many references to bands like Uriah Heep, Led Zeppelin, Mahavishnu Orchestra, as well as Genesis, Yes, ELP, King Crimson, Mike Oldfield, Procol Harum, Weather Report, etc. (I always feel weird that I find so few VDGG/Hammill similarities when I know they were a very popular band touring in Italia in the 1970s.) Still, I feel that some of the classical, religious, folk, and operatic in localized Italian culture lent themselves to the peculiarly "Italian" sound that RPI bands have earned. Interesting.

I answer to you and to others in the next message.
Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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jamesbaldwin View Drop Down
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Joined: September 25 2015
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Points: 5986 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2022 at 17:17
I partially agree with what Merlin says. I try to explain why.

Probably in his place I would not be so severe with the Italian prog, but I know well that the Italian critics (musical, literary, cinematographic) are very demanding towards homegrown works and very attentive to formal values.

So Merlin considers PFM, Banco and Orme derivatives, especially since their keyboard players were formed by observing the work of Keith Emerson (and David Robinson, for the Orme). Moreover, after the first album Banco and Pfm have complicated their music in terms of arrangements and formal structures, assimilating a lot of Genesis and Gentle Giant music. This is why Storia di un minuto seems to me much, much better than Per un amico, more original, more authentic, more Italian - less epigonic. Impressioni di Settembre is a song that no English band could have composed, played and sung like Pfm did. Idem for E 'festa, which is a tarantella.

Rosenbach Museum is certainly epigonic.

Now, the point, however, is this: in my opinion, these groups, with their first albums, have done better than their English masters.
So, if I use the concept of "beauty" as a criterion for my selection, I select their debut, if I use the concept of "historical importance and innovation", I might as well not select them.

In fact, Pfm signs only one great album, the debut, then produces a more refined but less beautiful consolidation album, then derails. Banco instead sign two great albums and a less beautiful third of consolidation. Le Orme signed three good albums, simpler, less ambitious - a little less beautiful.

(The keyboards of Collage and Felona and Sorona form a sound that, in my opinion, is inspired by EL&P classical music pieces, but reaches higher peaks)

I have no doubts about the fact that Area are much more original than Pfm and Banco e Orme and that their first album is one of the top of all time. And that Stratos was one of the greatest and most innovative singers ever.

Stormy Six, after a long process of assimilation of the structures of prog, have reached some remarkable peaks with L'apprendista and Macchina Maccheronica. The English influences (Gentle Giant) in the first album are clear, instead in Macchina Maccheronica (a timeless demential work) they churn out something original, not epigonic, of the highest level, but not very innovative.
Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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