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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Objectivity. 

You cannot describe an art with a science
If you're not the composer, you come second at best in a list of people "qualified to quantify"
Your opinion is personal and only matters to you
Other tastes may vary. 

So, no, you cannot possibly be 100% objective about a subject which is, by it's nature, subjective. 

Music is for listening to, not dissecting. You like it or you don't. 

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Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Objectivity. 

You cannot describe an art with a science
If you're not the composer, you come second at best in a list of people "qualified to quantify"
Your opinion is personal and only matters to you
Other tastes may vary. 

So, no, you cannot possibly be 100% objective about a subject which is, by it's nature, subjective. 

Music is for listening to, not dissecting. You like it or you don't. 




I agree with the sentiment. Of course, those into songwriting do quite a bit of dissecting for the purpose of advancing the craft. But, yes, when listening for the sake of appreciating art, we are enjoying (or not) the song. As I mentioned in another post, one song may be far more technical, proggy, better produced, etc., but that doesn’t mean I’ll like it. Another song may be cheesy with poor production and a singer who sounds to others like a cat being strangled, but if it is a sincere effort with good songwriting, I might love it.   Sometimes I can’t even explain why.
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Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Objectivity. 

You cannot describe an art with a science
If you're not the composer, you come second at best in a list of people "qualified to quantify"
Your opinion is personal and only matters to you
Other tastes may vary. 

So, no, you cannot possibly be 100% objective about a subject which is, by it's nature, subjective. 

Music is for listening to, not dissecting. You like it or you don't. 


Hi,

I would also add that the majority of folks wishing to "quantify" any music, are not specifically good listeners at all. As an example, after 50 years of progressive, experimental, classical, jazz, fusion, bs, morebs, phd ... the end result is that choosing a "favorite" immediately shows your lack of objective view towards a lot of music. For me, it's impossible to say that one band, or album is better than another, and it is the reason why I ALWAYS defer to the artist and his/her work. I have a lot of respect for the artist's work ... and that is the main reason why I make fun of people discussing the subject of "objectivity" ... since, even the idea of the thread, is already subjective by nature. 
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Good God, I agree with Mosh. ;-) ;-) ;-) 

Look, ladies and gents....... does it really matter ? What are you going to do ? Run around with an album above your head saying, "Look, everyone, THIS album is better than other ones !!! " ?

..... so what ?

At the end of the day, music is art. Art is subjective. If you want to produce some kind of hierarchy of what's "good" and what's "bad", one, that's only your opinion and two, why ? 

Music is like cats. There to be loved. Not understood. 

Edited by Davesax1965 - May 21 2022 at 03:32

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moshkito View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

...
Music is like cats. There to be loved. Not understood. 

Hi,

Thx. I don't think that folks within a commercial state of things, know what that means. For them, it is all about their favorite, and I'm not convinced that many of them know, or care, that there is other music out there they have never heard, and worse, never will!

Worse yet, is the value placed on lyrics in so much of the popular/commercial music that helps convince people that those are better than the rest. I often sit here and wonder if they dislike The Rite of Spring because it has no lyrics, or Stratosfear, because it has no lyrics ... which for me, is a lazy man's thinking that it is what the song means!

The only meaning that makes a true reference to the work, is not even in the lyrics, for the most part, since so little of it is actually about the "music" itself. It's like so much of it died after Led Zeppelin, since no one could emulate something so strong, even live, on stage. Today's bands are cardboard by comparison, and just a commercial carbon copy! Those folks will never understand the value and strength it took for (even) a Michael Jackson to bring up a white audience to concerts ... (Earth Wind and Fire 90% black. MJ? 50% percent!) ... and none of them will ever hear JJ and realize the tears and the effort put into the music, which makes so many folks out there sound like total idiots simply making it look like their lyrics are important.
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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The Anders View Drop Down
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The line between subjective and objective seems very blurred to me to begin with, and one of the main reasons is the factor of personal values and cultural background.

Since The Dark Side of the Moon has been brought up, I would use it as a great example. Based on my understanding of art and music, I clearly regard it as one of the most accomplished artistic achievements in more recent Western music. But consider a culture where music is inseparable from dancing. They might consider Dark Side "objectively bad" because you can't really dance to it.
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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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If the line between subjective and objective is very blurred to you, Anders.... don't do a Philosophy, English or History degree (or any humanities degree, honestly.)

Immanuel Kant comes around to beat you up. ;-) 

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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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As for the Dark Side / dance analogy, that's "subjective" (and happens to be true). 

Objectively, who says so ? The subject. It all gets a bit complicated from there. ;-) 

You can be objective in science based subjects. You can't in art based ones. Nor can you describe an art with a science or a science with an art. 

That's all there really is to it. 

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The Anders View Drop Down
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This video, btw., puts it on the edge. Thankfully, no one at my university tried to pretend that this music theory is equally applicable to any kind of music, but the video still makes an important point.




Edited by The Anders - May 21 2022 at 08:04
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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Yep, fair enough with music theory BUT what does it have to do with subjectivity ? 

Most people down a night club have very little idea of the cycle of fifths. They can't tell a clarinet from a goose farting in the fog. They just like or dislike something. It's noise to them, most non musicians mainly hear lyrics and vaguely perceive music. 

You can ask if gamelan music - or Delta blues - or counterpoint - or Arabic Maqams - are "good" or "bad" and it's not measured by most observers by any deeper criteria than "I like it" / "I do not like it". 

So. Yep, I agree with the views in the video above. Well, apart from the idea of "the supremacy of the white view" of music. Most of the stuff I play and enjoy is blues related. 

Indian music theory made my brain hurt. 

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand

Music is not an academic exercise.


Edited by Davesax1965 - May 21 2022 at 08:04

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The Anders View Drop Down
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^ Well, what I mean is, that there are people who think certain music is "objectively good" because it fits the rules of a certain music theory. So for them it isn't subjective. Of course it does not represent my point of view.
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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Actually, thinking about this:

I did a four year Honours degree in English at a UK university. Equivalent of a US MA, I'm lead to believe. (Also did History and some Philosophy.)

Three quarters of the way through the English degree, I almost gave up when I realised that all I was being taught was "other people's opinions". Really, a BA(Hons) English wasn't about English per se, it was about the collation and weighing of other sources to produce a balanced argument about a subject. 

"How to argue". 

There's a Monty Python sketch about that. ;-) Well. Nearly. 

Philsophy is much the same, it's how to apply a set of rules to an argument in a logical fashion. History turned out to be as subjective as English, of course. ;-)

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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

^ Well, what I mean is, that there are people who think certain music is "objectively good" because it fits the rules of a certain music theory. So for them it isn't subjective. Of course it does not represent my point of view.

Absolutely. ;-) I agree completely. Smile

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Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

...
Since The Dark Side of the Moon has been brought up, I would use it as a great example. Based on my understanding of art and music, I clearly regard it as one of the most accomplished artistic achievements in more recent Western music. But consider a culture where music is inseparable from dancing. They might consider Dark Side "objectively bad" because you can't really dance to it.

Hi,

To quote SYD ... "people have stood and cheered ... something they didn't understand!"
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Actually, thinking about this:

I did a four year Honours degree in English at a UK university. Equivalent of a US MA, I'm lead to believe. (Also did History and some Philosophy.)

Three quarters of the way through the English degree, I almost gave up when I realised that all I was being taught was "other people's opinions". Really, a BA(Hons) English wasn't about English per se, it was about the collation and weighing of other sources to produce a balanced argument about a subject. 

"How to argue". 

There's a Monty Python sketch about that. ;-) Well. Nearly. 

Philsophy is much the same, it's how to apply a set of rules to an argument in a logical fashion. History turned out to be as subjective as English, of course. ;-)


No there isn’t.
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Originally posted by Jaketejas Jaketejas wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Actually, thinking about this:

I did a four year Honours degree in English at a UK university. Equivalent of a US MA, I'm lead to believe. (Also did History and some Philosophy.)

Three quarters of the way through the English degree, I almost gave up when I realised that all I was being taught was "other people's opinions". Really, a BA(Hons) English wasn't about English per se, it was about the collation and weighing of other sources to produce a balanced argument about a subject. 

"How to argue". 

There's a Monty Python sketch about that. ;-) Well. Nearly. 

Philsophy is much the same, it's how to apply a set of rules to an argument in a logical fashion. History turned out to be as subjective as English, of course. ;-)


No there isn’t.

Oh, I’m sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?
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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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I've told you already. ;-)

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Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

If the line between subjective and objective is very blurred to you, Anders.... don't do a Philosophy, English or History degree (or any humanities degree, honestly.)

Immanuel Kant comes around to beat you up. ;-) 

And what!? Immanuel Kant is the god of wisdom?

Or it's maybe more like yourself?


Edited by David_D - May 22 2022 at 22:43
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Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

If the line between subjective and objective is very blurred to you, Anders.... don't do a Philosophy, English or History degree (or any humanities degree, honestly.)

Immanuel Kant comes around to beat you up. ;-) 

Objectively, he Kant do that as he passed away over 200 years ago. Wink
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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

If the line between subjective and objective is very blurred to you, Anders.... don't do a Philosophy, English or History degree (or any humanities degree, honestly.)

Immanuel Kant comes around to beat you up. ;-) 

Objectively, he Kant do that as he passed away over 200 years ago. Wink

LOL
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