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Objectivity in rating albums

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Argentinfonico View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Argentinfonico Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2022 at 13:45
One thing is certain and irrefutable: Art is objective, perception is subjective. In fact, I believe that there is nothing more objective than a work of art; everything is there for a meaning and a reason. It takes a lot of work to completely detach oneself from how one feels and enjoys music in order to create a serious review of a song, an album, a band or whatever one wants to qualify it, but that doesn't make it impossible or extremely difficult. You can evaluate points such as originality, complexity, the development of the instrumental line-up on the album, the production, the main melodies and the ambience within them, what the musician is trying to achieve, and many more. Around here, many of us dare to rate with words some works that have a very special and vast background, for which perhaps months of work are needed so that nothing escapes the rating. Even so, I think that one should not try to leave one's tastes aside when it comes to rating, because it is one's own action and it carries one's own name. If we are not going to express our feelings in our reviews, then let's leave them to the robots!


Edited by Argentinfonico - May 16 2022 at 13:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2022 at 15:22
I agree that rating with words is a much better way to go, because then you can explain the reasoning behind your personal rating. I enjoy reading well written reviews. Biases will always be present in the system, but I think that, as a reviewer, if you examine the art with enough sincerity, you can suppress that. No, we don't want to leave them to the robots. We've all seen Terminator and know how that turns out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2022 at 03:39
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I have thought before that while I would like to see more objectivity in the reviews, it might be better served to see the ratings as a true reflection of how the music is liked by someone, and the average to be a true reflection of how much all of the raters cumulatively liked it. Just having the ratings reflect enjoyment simplifies it and does have a certain utility to it.

I see your points, but I still think, it would be good having criterion/criteria that could include other values than only liking, as an appreciation of some general artistic values. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2022 at 03:48
Originally posted by Jaketejas Jaketejas wrote:

I agree that rating with words is a much better way to go, because then you can explain the reasoning behind your personal rating. I enjoy reading well written reviews. Biases will always be present in the system, but I think that, as a reviewer, if you examine the art with enough sincerity, you can suppress that. No, we don't want to leave them to the robots. We've all seen Terminator and know how that turns out.

While I think very positive of "rating with words" considered for it self, I miss in that kind of rating only the possiblity of good accumulating of many persons opinions which could show which albums have been very appreciated by many over a period of many years, or what I call "the great classics". 


Edited by David_D - May 17 2022 at 03:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2022 at 04:06
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Jaketejas Jaketejas wrote:

I agree that rating with words is a much better way to go, because then you can explain the reasoning behind your personal rating. I enjoy reading well written reviews. Biases will always be present in the system, but I think that, as a reviewer, if you examine the art with enough sincerity, you can suppress that. No, we don't want to leave them to the robots. We've all seen Terminator and know how that turns out.

While I think very positive of "rating with words" considered for it self, I miss in that kind of rating only the possiblity of good accumulating of many persons opinions which could show which albums have been very appreciated by many over a period of many years, or what I call "the great classics". 

There have been a few people now who have suggested now that the accumulating of many peoples opinions is not always/necessarily an accurate way of deciding “the great classics”. The problems with ratings, and especially when people attempt to be objective about it rather than subjective, is that it all becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The more votes one thing has, the more people listen to it over something else that might be (objectively or subjectively) just as good, or even better, and then give another vote to keep it at the top. Furthermore, as the aforementioned people have suggested, a lot of people attempt to be objective and rate an album higher than they would otherwise, simply because they want to recognise/reflect what others think. It is incredibly difficult on a site like PA for anything to compete with “the great classics”, which is not to suggest they are not great, but that there are plenty of other things that are just as “great” but can’t compete with the what has been so established that even people who don’t like something (and say so in their review), will still give it a four or five star rating because it might not be to their liking, but they can recognise how important it is.

Purely subjective ratings would be far more useful in my eyes. When the reviews say something different than the rating, and that happens often on PA, there is a problem with the ratings, in mt opinion. Much of it comes down to people attempting objectivity.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2022 at 07:01
Originally posted by Jaketejas Jaketejas wrote:

I agree that rating with words is a much better way to go, because then you can explain the reasoning behind your personal rating.
...

Hi,

Only one problem ... the majority of these ratings has no words ... ohh, except like or dislike. There is no reasoning, otherwise they would mention, or write about it, no?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote wiz_d_kidd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2022 at 08:17
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Jaketejas Jaketejas wrote:

I agree that rating with words is a much better way to go, because then you can explain the reasoning behind your personal rating.
...

Hi,

Only one problem ... the majority of these ratings has no words ... ohh, except like or dislike. There is no reasoning, otherwise they would mention, or write about it, no?


That's why PA should do away with ratings only, and require people to write a review which explains their viewpoint and why they rated it high or low. It's too easy for people to do a "drive-by shooting" where they shoot down the entire portfolio of an artist or genre with 1 star ratings without explanation. If they really want to express their likes or dislikes, make them write a valid review which can be peer-checked (as reviews currently are) to eliminate mindless or inconsiderate babble.

If we want to elevate the credibility of the PA review system, we need to eliminate the lazy (and sometimes abusive) "star clickers" and rely on those willing to take the time to express themselves. Personally, I'm not a prolific reviewer like many here on PA, but of the 43 I've done, only 3 were rating-only. All others had words of explanation.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2022 at 08:27
This Wikipedia page may come in useful here....... 
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/How_many_angels_can_dance_on_the_head_of_a_pin%3F



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2022 at 08:40
Music serves different purposes, which is why there are so many different genres, and it takes some aural intelligence to develop one's own personal tastes for each category.

When I listen to music that requires greater attentiveness, like progressive rock, my antenna is detecting many aspects of the music. But, it is not simply a ticking of boxes. How the sound elements (tone, pitch, duration, dynamics) are selected, arranged, and blended to produce a song that evokes something that reverberates with me and stimulates a response ... physically (do I start tapping my foot or start dancing?), emotionally (does it drag up some nostalgic memory or provide me with energy to tackle a challenge?), spiritually (does it make me appreciate something more or cause me to question something?). These are intangible aspects of music that help me to decide if I "like it" or "don't like it". Often this occurs without much deliberation.

I also sense with my antenna to detect if music is written in a sincere manner ... no matter what construction methods were used.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2022 at 08:48
Originally posted by Jaketejas Jaketejas wrote:

I agree that rating with words is a much better way to go, because then you can explain the reasoning behind your personal rating. I enjoy reading well written reviews.
Disagree. I have attempted to write reviews and I suck at it. Writing is not something I do well and it's difficult to put into words how I feel about an album. That is why I prefer ratings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2022 at 09:06
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

This Wikipedia page may come in useful here....... 
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/How_many_angels_can_dance_on_the_head_of_a_pin%3F

Without a doubt. But then, the same could be said for probably 99% of the topics posted in this forum! 😄🤪

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2022 at 09:32
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Jaketejas Jaketejas wrote:

I agree that rating with words is a much better way to go, because then you can explain the reasoning behind your personal rating. I enjoy reading well written reviews. Biases will always be present in the system, but I think that, as a reviewer, if you examine the art with enough sincerity, you can suppress that. No, we don't want to leave them to the robots. We've all seen Terminator and know how that turns out.

While I think very positive of "rating with words" considered for it self, I miss in that kind of rating only the possiblity of good accumulating of many persons opinions which could show which albums have been very appreciated by many over a period of many years, or what I call "the great classics". 

Sorry, Jake, as I misunderstood "rating with words", and now can see that it is meant to contain rating by numbers.

                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2022 at 09:35
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by Jaketejas Jaketejas wrote:

I agree that rating with words is a much better way to go, because then you can explain the reasoning behind your personal rating. I enjoy reading well written reviews.
Disagree. I have attempted to write reviews and I suck at it. Writing is not something I do well and it's difficult to put into words how I feel about an album. That is why I prefer ratings.


Clarification: I meant a better way to go for me personally. I'm not advocating that PA drop ratings. In fact, I realize that some people have severe time constraints, so the 5 star rating system and quick polls are perfect for them. Also, the ratings are great for people whose talents lie elsewhere than writing reviews. Nevertheless, I prefer well written reviews, because I do not find much of substance in an X-out-of-five star rating. But, what do I know? If you look at my avatar, I'm a 3 star ... fair to middlin'.


Edited by Jaketejas - May 17 2022 at 10:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2022 at 09:43
Originally posted by wiz_d_kidd wiz_d_kidd wrote:

That's why PA should do away with ratings only, and require people to write a review which explains their viewpoint and why they rated it high or low. 

That doesn't seem to be so practical to me, and everybody should have a possibility for giving expression to what they think of an album.


Edited by David_D - May 17 2022 at 09:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2022 at 10:44
^ For me, the ideal practical compromise between ratings and reviews is to give ten times the weighting to ratings which also include reviews, just like PA does already. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2022 at 10:51
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

^ For me, the ideal practical compromise between ratings and reviews is to give ten times the weighting to ratings which also include reviews, just like PA does already. Smile


Well, according to your Avatar, you're a 3 star ... but, you do have over 19,000 points! So, I guess we can trust your judgement ... at least until a 4+ star comes along (or a 3 star with at least 20,000 points).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2022 at 13:54
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

^ For me, the ideal practical compromise between ratings and reviews is to give ten times the weighting to ratings which also include reviews, just like PA does already. Smile

I'd even say that is much weight to ratings with reviews, but I'm glad to get it to know as I didn't realise it. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2022 at 01:17
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I have thought before that while I would like to see more objectivity in the reviews, it might be better served to see the ratings as a true reflection of how the music is liked by someone, and the average to be a true reflection of how much all of the raters cumulatively liked it. Just having the ratings reflect enjoyment simplifies it and does have a certain utility to it.

I see your points, but I still think, it would be good having criterion/criteria that could include other values than only liking, as an appreciation of some general artistic values. 

"Like" as criterion seems to me too much of Pop-like. I guess, it would be best just with stars and reviews. Stars symbolise a broader appreciation than just liking.


Edited by David_D - May 18 2022 at 01:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2022 at 01:48

I certainly think, it would be best if we talked about "rating", meaning with stars, and "reviews", meaning with words. 
"Rating with words" is confusing unless it should contain criteria with single words.







Edited by David_D - May 18 2022 at 01:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2022 at 04:38
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

This Wikipedia page may come in useful here....... 
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/How_many_angels_can_dance_on_the_head_of_a_pin%3F

Without a doubt. But then, the same could be said for probably 99% of the topics posted in this forum! 😄🤪


Beat me to it. ;-) 

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