Eclectic Prog Friends' Imaginative Club |
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David_D
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Online Points: 15132 |
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News update: A rumour says that some people don't find the Eclectic sub-genre to be a true, organic one, and that prevents them from joining the club. Edited by David_D - May 11 2022 at 10:55 |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Grumpyprogfan
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 09 2019 Location: Kansas City Status: Offline Points: 11612 |
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^ Don't pay attention to rumors. Their loss if they don't want to join.
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David_D
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Online Points: 15132 |
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Another rumour says that the Eclectic sub-genre, being the most eclectic, is the truest, proggiest of all the sub-genres. And what to believe?
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 35884 |
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I was an early member of the Eclectic Prog team, a category, as said, that was created with the great Art Rock split in 2007. We, Ricochet (Viktor) and I (and later Moris/ Clarke as I recall), didn't describe it as a proper genre or subgenre, instead we thought of it just as a category which worked reasonably well for PA purposes. Multi-tagging albums with various genres would have been much better methinks, but this site's architecture doe not support that apparently.
Of course there are many Prog acts that are truly eclectic outside of Eclectic Prog, and I tend to think of Prog commonly as inherently eclectic (eclectic by nature), but we used it for ones that we felt would have been appropriate for the Art Rock category, and crossed several of the Prog subgenres (for instance, if it mixed JRF, Symph, and Prog Folk) without leaning to much towards any of those. Often those acts would have fit other categories quite well, and quite often I found that our team, the Avant Prog team, and Crossover Prog would be discussing which one it would best fit, which lead to some fun suggestion threads with more discussion than one commonly finds now. If an eclectic Art Rock prog act was more on the pop, mainstream or "alternative rock" side, then often it would be chosen for Crossover Prog, If it was more experimental, weird or out there, then Neo-Prog. Just kidding, Avant-Prog. I'm not looking to be an honorary member of the club, as I am content in being a retired member of the Eclectic Prog team, but there is a lot that I like in the category. And quite a lot that I don't that is included in Eclectic (mixed bag). Some of my favourite albums in the category are (I could list many for GG, VdGG and KC and others but I usually only like to list one per band in such things but will go to three for the big names) and there are way more that I could list, but some of my faves included in PA's category... Jean-Claude Vannier - L'enfant assassin des mouches Bubu - Anabelas Haikara - Haikara Play du Jour - s/t Kultivator - Kultivator Jean-Paul Prat - Masal Ma banlieue flasque - Ma banlieue flasque Island - Pictures Gnidrolog - In Spite of Harry's Toe-nail Peter Hammill - The Silent Corner and the Empty Stage William D. Drake - Briny Hooves Carpe Diem - En regardant passer le temps Jean-Philippe Goude (et Olivier Colé) - Jeunes Années Gosta Berlings Saga - Jean-Pierre Alarcen -st Gentle Giant - Acquiring the Taste, Three Friends, Octopus Van Der Graaf Generator - Pawn Hearts, The Least We Can Do..., H to He... King Crimson - Lizard, Islands, Larks' Tongues in Aspic And as I am very into Swans, to me that is more of an Eclectic Prog band than a post-rock band. A lot of acts that I like I could describe as eclectic. Whatever people think of the category, clearly some of the acts in it are very respected. Putting things in boxes is handy for classification, it especially can help in finding musically related albums and acts, but eclectic is by its nature a pretty mixed bag. Still there is a certain kind of Art Rock core about it, which especially if one had been working with it in those early days one would likely be very receptive too. I often would think when evaluating music for Eclectic Prog: a) Is it Prog? b) Is it Art Rock? c} Does it cross several subgenres at PA without leaning too heavily towards any of them and what other categories could it fit? There were other considerations too. Edited by Logan - May 11 2022 at 12:22 |
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David_D
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Online Points: 15132 |
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By the way, here's maybe an interesting intepretation of the lyrics from The Undercover Man: "Hammill writes some stunningly complex lyrics. This one appears to have several of his recurring "themes". Specifically, Mirrors and Illusion or the difference between perception and reality.I think the narrative arc is of a performer (Hammill) staring into his mirror and questioning his motives for being who he is. He's talking to his reflection - "You and the Undercover man". The undercover man is his subconscious. The cracking dam is a maybe reference to the possible consequences of self doubt. It's interesting to me that it also appears to be Hammill offering his own hand to his drowning self.I think this may mean that we have in ourselves to power of self control." (written by PBA on songmeannings.com)
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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David_D
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Online Points: 15132 |
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Thank you very much, Logan, for telling us much more about the history and character of the Eclectic "sub-genre", and for your list as well. It looks like, you prefer not to be a member of this "club" at all, so I just welcome you to joining this thread - but that very much. And thank you very much again for your so informative post. Edited by David_D - May 11 2022 at 13:46 |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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David_D
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Online Points: 15132 |
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I'll give The Great Annihilator a new listen, and The Glowing Man as well. Edited by David_D - May 11 2022 at 14:40 |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 35884 |
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^ Hope you enjoy them. My favourite Swans albums are Soundtracks For the Blind, Children of God, The Great Annihilator, White Light From the Mouth of Infinity and the Glowing Man methinks. That may change and I still haven't heard all of them. Those are all quite different, but not as different as Swans can get.
Sorry, I didn't want to sound like a party pooper, David and I appreciate your post. I don't mind being a member of this club at all, but it's more like it is enough for me to remember the time when I was on the Eclectic team -- I still feel rather nostalgic about it. Being a member of the Eclectic Team was a significant commitment over some years, and when I did choose to retire, I did it with some sorrow and regrets. It's sad to move on from things that one has put a lot of time into, I find, and then just not to be part of it anymore. Between taking care of work (as a copy-editor/ kind of researcher I could work from home) and two young children since my wife didn't take maternity leave, those were very busy days. |
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David_D
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OP update: The thread title is changed to Eclectic Prog Friends' Illusory Club, and the present OP is edited to: "To become member of this very special club, please tell which Eclectic Prog albums you're fond of." Edited by David_D - May 12 2022 at 01:55 |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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David_D
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thanks, by the way
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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David_D
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So far, I've found Children of God to be most accessible, but I must say that I don't think of Swans music as Progressive Rock, the way I've defined it, which is: "1. be a synthesis/fusion of Rock (significantly present) and at least one of other "main genres": Classical, Jazz, Folk, electronic avant-garde or other avant-garde, AND 2. be rather complex or at least to some extent experimental in another way than #1. ”electronic avant-garde” is here primarily Musique Concrete and Minimalism while ”other avant-garde” include Free and Avant-Jazz and Contemporary Classical." |
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Psychedelic Paul
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Just when I was proud to be a member of the Eclectic Prog Friends' Club, I now realise the club may be Just an Illusion, or is that just my Imagination, running away with me? |
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David_D
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I'm happy to hear about you being proud, Paul. The "Illusory Club" is how I think of the present state of it (and to make the title maybe even more interesting/intriguing), but it continues and depending on how it goes, the illusion may proved to be illusory, and then the name of the club can just be changed again, right? - maybe even to "not so Exclusive Club". |
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David_D
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and thanks for this telling about your appreciation Edited by David_D - May 12 2022 at 03:34 |
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Psychedelic Paul
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Yes, it's not such an "Exclusive Club" after all, if it includes me as a member.
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David_D
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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David_D
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Meanwhile, I've changed the name again to "Imaginative Club", as I guess it sounds more positive than "Illusory".
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David_D
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thanks for the suggestion
Edited by David_D - May 12 2022 at 07:35 |
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Logan
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Sorry for any and all-mistakes. I quickly typed this out and haven't the chance to read through and edit now, but I wanted to get in my response before heading out the door. So not as thought through a response as I would have liked, but decent and quite comprehensive posts can take considerable time for me to write. That's fine although I do think when asking if a band is Prog, one should try to consider a large portion of the discography deemed most relevant. Ask ten people at PA what is Prog to them, and you might get 30 definitions. It's a nebulous, amorphous concept to me and it can mean many things. I too commonly consider Prog to be a fusion of genres -- commonly classical, jazz, and folk mixed with rock but it can incorporate any genre, some of my favourites would be world music, and it often has some basis in psychedelic music, and has an overlap with art rock. Prog can mean experimental rock to me. An important aspect of being progressive in this sense has involved breaking away from the established conventions of rock (or commercial rock) to some extent (so it is quite unconventional) as I see it. Often it is what I would call non-canonic or not generic rock. Sometimes the music has gone beyond rock. Progressive rock need not adhere to the common expectations of rock music. It is about progressing away from the rock lexicon (canonical rock), taking in varied influences, playing with form etc. It is often playful with often long compositions etc. So I see Prog as non-generic in a sense, and I think by limiting it to strict definitions that to me works against what I see as the spirit of progressive rock. Progressive rock might be seen as rock without borders, without barriers. It may be music that is constantly progressing farther and farther away from what rock has been and could be. That said, there have been borders for me even if those borders are fuzzy. While I tend to avoid the Prog label except for site work (when it comes to the site I try to consider all of our subgenre definitions and what I know has been included) and because of forum discussion, but a part of me dislikes even the term progressive rock, I would sooner describe Swans as experimental rock than progressive rock. I have become less keen on trying to label things, and Prog can mean so many things, The reason why Eclectic Prog works better as a descriptor than Post-Rock for Swans to me is because I don't find that Post-Rock dominates the music enough across the discography -- I guess it was though to be significant enough in the albums thought most PA worthy, which might have been Soundtracks of the Blind up -- I think it was added more the revival period albums, The Seer and to be Kind in maybe early 2015 or late 2014. I get why it was added to Post Rock for those atmospheric qualities, the ambience and crescendos. I suggested a band not long with Swans-like qualities to Post Rock, which was accepted and added. I think of it as more experimental rock with art rock qualities first (those two overlap anyway), which has a Prog Folk relation (think Neofolk, Dark Folk and Avant Folk), Krautrock, and Post-Rock qualities (with a Psych relation). I also would say that the band could be seen as progressive rock because it has progressed or changed style enough from album to album and even song to song. The No Wave Noise Rock of the debut is quite different from the Experimental Post Punk, Neo Folk, Gothic and Industrial Children of God, which is quite different from the more commercial Neofolk with country following album, which is different from the Experimental Post-Rock Soundtracks for the Blind (which many consider to be Swans masterpiece), which is different again from the more folky leaving meaning. Which is not say that it has been hugely diverse. It as at least prog related to me and I am a big tenter. A lot of my favourite music I don't consider to be properly Prog genre, but has a Prog relation. And I'd rather listen to the likes of Portishead, Stereolab, Air, Broadcast and Pram than Dream Theater, Marillion, Spock's Beard etc. etc. |
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Grumpyprogfan
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 09 2019 Location: Kansas City Status: Offline Points: 11612 |
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Could this be the theme song for the imaginative club?
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