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tszirmay View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2022 at 14:49
Originally posted by Woon Deadn Woon Deadn wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by Woon Deadn Woon Deadn wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

These things, I repeat, have been saying for 20 years by political analysts, historians and diplomatic agents, both right and left, experts on NATO and Russia, such as Sergio Romano, who for 20 years has warned that this expansion of NATO to the east is OBJECTIVELY a declaration of war on Russia.

Really? I don't know Sergio Romano at all, but to declare that NATO's expansion is "objectively" (no need to shout, btw) a declaration of war sounds to me not "objective" at all but very ideologically coloured.
I even dare to say that NATO has probably been more lucid about Putin's intentions than any other country or the EU: Putin has been investing in nuclear arms, weapons and attack systems since the decades he is in power, to the expense of his own population. And, with the present attack on Ukraine and the past attacks on Chechnya and Georgia, I don't think Putin was/is defending himself against NATO. He is using the NATO narrative as a pretext to fulfill the program he has defined all by himself.

Sir, with all my respect, for the sake of correctness, Chechnya is not a sovereign nation, it is the part of Russia. Following your logics, Alaska and Hawaii should also be called sovereign nations... 

If Muslim Chechnya is part of Russia, why did they fight a brutal war? Surely, fraternal brothers who speak the same language, the same culture, pray to the same God (or lack thereof) and even look alike, should not be engaged in any conflict . Maybe its was NATO or that famous Israeli/American lobby group , known as ISIS . I just wonder how Imperial Russia went about growing its empire? Trade perhaps?   If NATO expansion is an OBJECTIVE act of war, how come there is still no NO FLY ZONE ? Confused

Muslim Chechnya is as legitimate a part of Russia as Alaska and Hawaii are intrinsic territories of the USA. Simply, Chechnya like any other Caucasus region is full of hot-tempered men. Alaska and Hawaii are much cooler... In both meanings of the word. 

I am not defending Russia(n Empire) here or anywhere else. But I am not going to call Hitler (or Stalin) a pedophile just because they were evil men. 

The same culture and the same language? Are you proposing to send all Spanish speakers away from the USA? What should they do to Quebec? 

First, there's a Russian invasion in Ukraine. 

Second, don't call Hitler a pedophile just because he was an evil man and pedophiles are evil men. Honesty and sincerety must prevail over anything else. Always. Even in the times of war. That's what I believe in. 
Hispanic Americans and Quebecois separatists did not wage open insurrection against the USA and Canada , respectively,  Taos NM and Montreal Quebec were not reduced to rubble. So if they were so much alike , why the fight? I dare not to challenge you so boldly but an expert like you surely has some answers for us neophytes. And who called Hitler a pedophile in this thread ? If someone did, they are quite wrong:  He was an asexual megalomaniac junkie. Stalin, on the other hand, was just plain evil. 


Edited by tszirmay - March 05 2022 at 14:52
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2022 at 15:04
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by Woon Deadn Woon Deadn wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by Woon Deadn Woon Deadn wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

These things, I repeat, have been saying for 20 years by political analysts, historians and diplomatic agents, both right and left, experts on NATO and Russia, such as Sergio Romano, who for 20 years has warned that this expansion of NATO to the east is OBJECTIVELY a declaration of war on Russia.

Really? I don't know Sergio Romano at all, but to declare that NATO's expansion is "objectively" (no need to shout, btw) a declaration of war sounds to me not "objective" at all but very ideologically coloured.
I even dare to say that NATO has probably been more lucid about Putin's intentions than any other country or the EU: Putin has been investing in nuclear arms, weapons and attack systems since the decades he is in power, to the expense of his own population. And, with the present attack on Ukraine and the past attacks on Chechnya and Georgia, I don't think Putin was/is defending himself against NATO. He is using the NATO narrative as a pretext to fulfill the program he has defined all by himself.

Sir, with all my respect, for the sake of correctness, Chechnya is not a sovereign nation, it is the part of Russia. Following your logics, Alaska and Hawaii should also be called sovereign nations... 

If Muslim Chechnya is part of Russia, why did they fight a brutal war? Surely, fraternal brothers who speak the same language, the same culture, pray to the same God (or lack thereof) and even look alike, should not be engaged in any conflict . Maybe its was NATO or that famous Israeli/American lobby group , known as ISIS . I just wonder how Imperial Russia went about growing its empire? Trade perhaps?   If NATO expansion is an OBJECTIVE act of war, how come there is still no NO FLY ZONE ? Confused

Muslim Chechnya is as legitimate a part of Russia as Alaska and Hawaii are intrinsic territories of the USA. Simply, Chechnya like any other Caucasus region is full of hot-tempered men. Alaska and Hawaii are much cooler... In both meanings of the word. 

I am not defending Russia(n Empire) here or anywhere else. But I am not going to call Hitler (or Stalin) a pedophile just because they were evil men. 

The same culture and the same language? Are you proposing to send all Spanish speakers away from the USA? What should they do to Quebec? 

First, there's a Russian invasion in Ukraine. 

Second, don't call Hitler a pedophile just because he was an evil man and pedophiles are evil men. Honesty and sincerety must prevail over anything else. Always. Even in the times of war. That's what I believe in. 
Hispanic Americans and Quebecois separatists did not wage open insurrection against the USA and Canada , respectively,  Taos NM and Montreal Quebec were not reduced to rubble. So if they were so much alike , why the fight? I dare not to challenge you so boldly but an expert like you surely has some answers for us neophytes. And who called Hitler a pedophile in this thread ? If someone did, they are quite wrong:  He was an asexual megalomaniac junkie. Stalin, on the other hand, was just plain evil. 

Big enough countries always had several cultural groups, several languages or at least dialects among its population. Some ethnicities are more fierce in their pretensions, some are more quiet. It is usual for the Caucasus people to fight: let's remember the neverending conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia. Or Georgian protests. Don't try to draw universal 100% exact parallels between the ethnic groups in different countries.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2022 at 15:16
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

@suitkees
You say that NATO is a defensive alliance, but NONE of its founding members have ever been attacked by Russia or any other country.
On the contrary, many of these countries contain American military bases that have been used to launch the planes with which the US has bombed various states. So NATO has never been used to defend itself, while it has often been used by the US to wage wars of aggression, and all after 1989, after the fall of the USSR, i.e. after the feared enemy that would have represented a threat had fallen. .
Clearly, you can consider NATO's expansion to the east a pretext for the invasion of Ukraine (and in part it is certainly a pretext, in the sense that it is not enough to justify a war).

But I am trying to show you and other forumists that many independent analysts (see the post on the Guardian article), Europeans on the right and left, already felt several years ago that this expansion represented a clear (and understandable) threat and that therefore would have entailed the risk of a war, if it continued.

@Steve
As I have already said, Sergio Romano is not a Marxist, he is a politically right-wing man who lived in the US before becoming ambassador for Italy in NATO and then in Gorbachev's USSR.
You may disagree with his analyzes, but his analyzes do not depend on his sympathies: he has always been anti-communist. 

@Lewian
Relations between Reagan and Gorbachev became so friendly that Gorbachev, according to many witnesses, contented himself with a handshake from Reagan to believe that NATO would not expand east (Putin in the interview with Oliver Stone said he was "naive "). I'm not sure, however, that there was nothing written about it in subsequent years.
In any case, there was peace between the US and Russia. And if you criticize Russia for believing in that deal, it's a bit like criticizing those who leave their bicycle without a lock instead of criticizing the thief who steals it. In other words, it seems to me objectively clear that the responsibility for breaking that peace lies with the American, that is, with those who broke the pact.
In my opinion, the security of the former Warsaw Pact countries, especially if bordering Russia, would have been maximum if they had declared themselves neutral. And their independence would also have been maximum. Instead, passing from the Warsaw Pact to NATO, they have passed from one master to another, who hegemonizes them and uses them to wage his wars, which they tend to approve uncritically.
I am writing OBJECTIVELY because it was also clear to the Americans that by expanding NATO to the East this would be perceived as an act of war, rather than peace, and moreover, the US would never accept that Mexico or Canada allied itself with Russia.
The point is that if your enemy loses the war and his allies, as happened to Russia with the Cold War (it also lost economically), and instead of letting go and holding out your hand, you force him against the wall, surrounding him, isolating him, while he is still hurt and humiliated, you must expect that as soon as he can he will try to get out of his corner and return to take revenge and stand up to you by foaming with anger.

Now, however, many years have passed, and Putin will probably lose this war because he does not have the tools to recreate the great Russia, and in so doing he will contribute to further damage and isolation of Russia, and all Europeans will be damaged because the Russia is part of Europe, because Europe will harm itself with the sanctions, and because NATO will come out even more strengthened, which means that Europe will continue to be subordinate to the US, instead of being an autonomous political entity. This is my opinion, unless Putin manages to find an agreement whereby he leaves Ukraine annexing only the areas to the southeast.
On the civil war in Georgia, I confess that it is difficult to understand something, all those wars on the borders of Russia (Chechnya, Crimea, Georgia) are like the aftershocks of the earthquake resulting from the dissolution of Russia. Russia, of course, has tried to regain some lost territories by doing the usual war crimes, which I believe also committed by civil war fighters.



Lorenzo, I was not clear in the post you responded to. If Romano was not spouting Marxist political views on NATO, regardless of his right wing affiliations, you simply would not celebrate him and QUOTE his outdated dogma. He would just be what you hate, another unenlightened right wing stooge. That you and socialists find him to be a voice of reason is typical and sad.

Edited by SteveG - March 05 2022 at 17:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2022 at 16:04
Originally posted by Woon Deadn Woon Deadn wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by Woon Deadn Woon Deadn wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by Woon Deadn Woon Deadn wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

These things, I repeat, have been saying for 20 years by political analysts, historians and diplomatic agents, both right and left, experts on NATO and Russia, such as Sergio Romano, who for 20 years has warned that this expansion of NATO to the east is OBJECTIVELY a declaration of war on Russia.

Really? I don't know Sergio Romano at all, but to declare that NATO's expansion is "objectively" (no need to shout, btw) a declaration of war sounds to me not "objective" at all but very ideologically coloured.
I even dare to say that NATO has probably been more lucid about Putin's intentions than any other country or the EU: Putin has been investing in nuclear arms, weapons and attack systems since the decades he is in power, to the expense of his own population. And, with the present attack on Ukraine and the past attacks on Chechnya and Georgia, I don't think Putin was/is defending himself against NATO. He is using the NATO narrative as a pretext to fulfill the program he has defined all by himself.

Sir, with all my respect, for the sake of correctness, Chechnya is not a sovereign nation, it is the part of Russia. Following your logics, Alaska and Hawaii should also be called sovereign nations... 

If Muslim Chechnya is part of Russia, why did they fight a brutal war? Surely, fraternal brothers who speak the same language, the same culture, pray to the same God (or lack thereof) and even look alike, should not be engaged in any conflict . Maybe its was NATO or that famous Israeli/American lobby group , known as ISIS . I just wonder how Imperial Russia went about growing its empire? Trade perhaps?   If NATO expansion is an OBJECTIVE act of war, how come there is still no NO FLY ZONE ? Confused

Muslim Chechnya is as legitimate a part of Russia as Alaska and Hawaii are intrinsic territories of the USA. Simply, Chechnya like any other Caucasus region is full of hot-tempered men. Alaska and Hawaii are much cooler... In both meanings of the word. 

I am not defending Russia(n Empire) here or anywhere else. But I am not going to call Hitler (or Stalin) a pedophile just because they were evil men. 

The same culture and the same language? Are you proposing to send all Spanish speakers away from the USA? What should they do to Quebec? 

First, there's a Russian invasion in Ukraine. 

Second, don't call Hitler a pedophile just because he was an evil man and pedophiles are evil men. Honesty and sincerety must prevail over anything else. Always. Even in the times of war. That's what I believe in. 
Hispanic Americans and Quebecois separatists did not wage open insurrection against the USA and Canada , respectively,  Taos NM and Montreal Quebec were not reduced to rubble. So if they were so much alike , why the fight? I dare not to challenge you so boldly but an expert like you surely has some answers for us neophytes. And who called Hitler a pedophile in this thread ? If someone did, they are quite wrong:  He was an asexual megalomaniac junkie. Stalin, on the other hand, was just plain evil. 

Big enough countries always had several cultural groups, several languages or at least dialects among its population. Some ethnicities are more fierce in their pretensions, some are more quiet. It is usual for the Caucasus people to fight: let's remember the neverending conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia. Or Georgian protests. Don't try to draw universal 100% exact parallels between the ethnic groups in different countries.
Nothing is 100% exact if one wishes to be, like you, the promoter of extremely precise accuracy . BTW, I just love the imperative tone you use, it reminds me of my history professors when getting my degreesLOL


Edited by tszirmay - March 05 2022 at 16:08
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2022 at 16:59
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:


In any case, there was peace between the US and Russia. And if you criticize Russia for believing in that deal, it's a bit like criticizing those who leave their bicycle without a lock instead of criticizing the thief who steals it. In other words, it seems to me objectively clear that the responsibility for breaking that peace lies with the American, that is, with those who broke the pact.
(...)
I am writing OBJECTIVELY because it was also clear to the Americans that by expanding NATO to the East this would be perceived as an act of war, rather than peace
(1) I'm not criticising the Russians for being disappointed or for having believed in the deal. I'm only criticising what Putin now makes of it. Honestly, sh... happens. I'd be happier without it, but Putin is no stranger to saying things and then acting differently, and neither was Yeltsin (Gorbachev maybe, a truly exceptional character in world politics, but even he was warned). Now what can be done with it? One can use it to justify a war if this is what one wants, but nobody should claim that this is a necessary consequence. 
(2) Admitting countries to NATO that wanted to be members may have been a mistake (that's controversial), but it's not an act of war by any generally accepted standard. Of course it may be perceived as such, but then those who perceive it like that have to take responsibility for their perception. This is about perception, communication, interpretation. There's nothing objective about it.
(3) The thing is that there were different interests and tough choices to make. I don't claim that it had to be like this, and neither that this was the best possible course of action. But there were some good reasons for this as there were reasons against it. You go on about the latter but ignore the former, and this is what I take issue with: The legitimate security interest of the Eastern European countries is absent from your reasoning. I'm not somebody who claims he knows better what should have been done or not done, and neither can I know what would've happened had the Americans handled the situation differently. You may be right or wrong that we'd have peace now had NATO not accepted new members. I doubt it but ultimately we will never know, and there's no truth about counterfactuals. But anyway, these countries wanted to join NATO and they had bloody good reasons for that (and I suppose you won't find many in these countries who now regret it). 
 

Edited by Lewian - March 05 2022 at 17:04
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2022 at 17:02
@tszirmay: I appreciate your knowledge, however when you accuse others of imperative tone or of not admitting errors it comes over as a bit ironic. Just saying.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2022 at 17:10
Visa and Mastercard have cut off Russia entirely. This was one of the things Zelensky asked for from the US senators today.

Edited by Easy Money - March 05 2022 at 17:11
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2022 at 17:17
@jamesbaldwin As someone who normally appreciates your contributions to this forum I am highly disappointed to see you quote such unreliable sources and state blatant untruths, the most egregious of them being:
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Russia
did not militarily occupy Eastern Europe: it liberated it from the
Nazis. They are two very different concepts. Roberto Benigni in "La vita
è bella" has freed his concentration camp from the Americans. It was a
nice trick to win the Oscar, wasnt it? Auschwitz was liberated by the
Russians. And the Russians did not remain to occupy the Eastern European
states after the war. And by the way, Tito's Yugoslavia was never
liberated nor occupied by Stalin's Russia.
In short, NATO was
not born in response to the Russian occupation of Eastern Europe,
because there was no Russian occupation (except in East Berlin and East
Germany).
"Liberation" implies that these countries were freed from an oppressive regime and were left to conduct their own affairs in peace and sovereignty. This did not happen, as the Soviets only ever wished to impose their own oppressive regimes on the territories that were now under their control. Thousands of people were killed in Stalinist purges, thousands of Polish anti-Nazi resistance fighters were deported, tortured and executed and Soviet-backed coups d'état eliminated democracy in Hungary and Czechoslovakia. US and UK interference in the 1948 Italian election is well-documented but to equate that with the way the USSR installed reviled puppet regimes in the Eastern Bloc is ludicrous. The Warsaw Pact may have officially been founded in 1955 in response to NATO, but it changed nothing about the balance of power in Europe; it was an alliance by and for the USSR, consisting of countries that were under the USSR's control well before its foundation.
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

-For the rest, I have nothing to say about Srebrenica because I stated that I was against the NATO war in Kosovo, which happened before the real massacres in Kosovo took place, and not after, as Western propaganda says, and this Chosmsky says this in the book "Hegemony or Survival", 2003. This does not mean that in the previous years there were no massacres in the former Yugoslavia.
I won't claim to have a solid opinion on whether NATO's intervention in Kosovo was justified or not, but this is a distortion: hundreds of Kosovar Albanians had already been killed by Serbian special police forces before the intervention (and many more had gone missing and later turned up in mass graves in Serbia such as Batajnica, where they had been relocated in the prelude to the intervention when the Serbian government tried to hide the evidence of its crimes), and an estimated 300.000 had been displaced by the end of 1998 after thousands of their homes had been burned down. Furthermore, in January 1999 Milošević had threatened to "solve the Kosovo problem once and for all" by doing what the Serbs did to the Albanians in Drenica in 1945 - "We got them together and we shot them" - and this was only a few years after the same regime committed the worst genocidal act in Europe since World War 2.

You've said that your knowledge on this comes from the books of Noam Chomsky, which I have not read myself, but given the man's highly objectionable remarks on the matter (saying Srebrenica was the only massacre committed by Serbs in the Bosnian war and claiming that it doesn't constitute genocide because the Serbs only killed men; referring to Serbian-operated concentration camps in 1992 such as Omarska and Trnopolje as "refugee camps" and to their emaciated prisoners as "thin men") I am led to believe that his own judgment may too be clouded by his own dogmatic worldview, in which anything the United States government does is evil (quite often true) and anything a rival government does is noble and/or misunderstood (rarely true).
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Oliver Stone on facebook (today)
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word; margin: 0px; white-space: pre-wrap; font-family: "Segoe UI Historic", "Segoe UI", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb5, 5, 5; font-size: 14px;"><div dir="auto" style="font-family: inherit;">(...)
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word; margin: 0.5em 0px 0px; white-space: pre-wrap; font-family: "Segoe UI Historic", "Segoe UI", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb5, 5, 5; font-size: 14px;"><div dir="auto" style="font-family: inherit;">But we must wonder, how could Putin have saved the Russian-speaking people of Donetsk and Luhansk? No doubt his Government could’ve done a better job of showing the world the eight years of suffering of those people and their refugees -- as well as highlighting the Ukrainian buildup of 110,000 soldiers on the Donetsk-Luhansk borders, which was occurring essentially before the Russian buildup. But the West has far stronger public relations than the Russians.
Ignoring the fact that there would have never have been a war in Donbass without Russian interference and assuming that the wildest claims of Ukrainian crimes against ethnic Russians in the area are true, is there any reason why Putin had to launch a full-scale invasion of Ukraine instead of just occupying the Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts? Is there any reason for bombing civilian targets and wasting countless of his own soldiers' lives in order to conquer Kyiv and Kharkiv? Would there be any reason for his denial of Ukraine's right as a sovereign nation?

Plus, it's laughable for Oliver Stone to complain about demonizing foreign leaders when he's spent the last eight years demonizing Ukraine's democratically elected government as a neo-nazi US puppet regime while sucking up to shameless dictators like Putin (whose anti-"gay propaganda" law he defended and whom he asked to be his daughter's godfather) or Kazakhstan's Nazarbayev ("What’s wrong with celebrating Nazarbayev for 30 years in office? Give him credit for building up the country and keeping the peace and not turning it into a trash heap like Ukraine.")


Edited by Mirakaze - March 05 2022 at 17:50
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2022 at 17:18
I guess a sense of humour is taboo ( i did add an emoticon😂) . As far as irony is concerned, it is a proper tool as well as sarcasm when confronting aggressive tones. It is still better than insults , or in this thread, bombing the hell out of your “brothers” in order to denazify them . The imperative tense generally sounds like an order ( sit, come , do not) and implies a form of imposition. So if i detect that, why should i not reply accordingly? The best way to defeat such attempts is to reply appropriately. Just saying ….. nicely

Edited by tszirmay - March 05 2022 at 17:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2022 at 18:37
Originally posted by Mirakaze Mirakaze wrote:

@jamesbaldwin As someone who normally appreciates your contributions to this forum I am highly disappointed to see you quote such unreliable sources and state blatant untruths, the most egregious of them being:
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Russia
did not militarily occupy Eastern Europe: it liberated it from the
Nazis. They are two very different concepts. Roberto Benigni in "La vita
è bella" has freed his concentration camp from the Americans. It was a
nice trick to win the Oscar, wasnt it? Auschwitz was liberated by the
Russians. And the Russians did not remain to occupy the Eastern European
states after the war. And by the way, Tito's Yugoslavia was never
liberated nor occupied by Stalin's Russia.
In short, NATO was
not born in response to the Russian occupation of Eastern Europe,
because there was no Russian occupation (except in East Berlin and East
Germany).
"Liberation" implies that these countries were freed from an oppressive regime and were left to conduct their own affairs in peace and sovereignty. This did not happen, as the Soviets only ever wished to impose their own oppressive regimes on the territories that were now under their control. Thousands of people were killed in Stalinist purges, thousands of Polish anti-Nazi resistance fighters were deported, tortured and executed and Soviet-backed coups d'état eliminated democracy in Hungary and Czechoslovakia. US and UK interference in the 1948 Italian election is well-documented but to equate that with the way the USSR installed reviled puppet regimes in the Eastern Bloc is ludicrous. The Warsaw Pact may have officially been founded in 1955 in response to NATO, but it changed nothing about the balance of power in Europe; it was an alliance by and for the USSR, consisting of countries that were under the USSR's control well before its foundation.
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

-For the rest, I have nothing to say about Srebrenica because I stated that I was against the NATO war in Kosovo, which happened before the real massacres in Kosovo took place, and not after, as Western propaganda says, and this Chosmsky says this in the book "Hegemony or Survival", 2003. This does not mean that in the previous years there were no massacres in the former Yugoslavia.
I won't claim to have a solid opinion on whether NATO's intervention in Kosovo was justified or not, but this is a distortion: hundreds of Kosovar Albanians had already been killed by Serbian special police forces before the intervention (and many more had gone missing and later turned up in mass graves in Serbia such as Batajnica, where they had been relocated in the prelude to the intervention when the Serbian government tried to hide the evidence of its crimes), and an estimated 300.000 had been displaced by the end of 1998 after thousands of their homes had been burned down. Furthermore, in January 1999 Milošević had threatened to "solve the Kosovo problem once and for all" by doing what the Serbs did to the Albanians in Drenica in 1945 - "We got them together and we shot them" - and this was only a few years after the same regime committed the worst genocidal act in Europe since World War 2.

You've said that your knowledge on this comes from the books of Noam Chomsky, which I have not read myself, but given the man's highly objectionable remarks on the matter (saying Srebrenica was the only massacre committed by Serbs in the Bosnian war and claiming that it doesn't constitute genocide because the Serbs only killed men; referring to Serbian-operated concentration camps in 1992 such as Omarska and Trnopolje as "refugee camps" and to their emaciated prisoners as "thin men") I am led to believe that his own judgment may too be clouded by his own dogmatic worldview, in which anything the United States government does is evil (quite often true) and anything a rival government does is noble and/or misunderstood (rarely true).
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Oliver Stone on facebook (today)
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word; margin: 0px; white-space: pre-wrap; font-family: "Segoe UI Historic", "Segoe UI", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb5, 5, 5; font-size: 14px;"><div dir="auto" style="font-family: inherit;">(...)
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word; margin: 0.5em 0px 0px; white-space: pre-wrap; font-family: "Segoe UI Historic", "Segoe UI", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb5, 5, 5; font-size: 14px;"><div dir="auto" style="font-family: inherit;">But we must wonder, how could Putin have saved the Russian-speaking people of Donetsk and Luhansk? No doubt his Government could’ve done a better job of showing the world the eight years of suffering of those people and their refugees -- as well as highlighting the Ukrainian buildup of 110,000 soldiers on the Donetsk-Luhansk borders, which was occurring essentially before the Russian buildup. But the West has far stronger public relations than the Russians.
Ignoring the fact that there would have never have been a war in Donbass without Russian interference and assuming that the wildest claims of Ukrainian crimes against ethnic Russians in the area are true, is there any reason why Putin had to launch a full-scale invasion of Ukraine instead of just occupying the Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts? Is there any reason for bombing civilian targets and wasting countless of his own soldiers' lives in order to conquer Kyiv and Kharkiv? Would there be any reason for his denial of Ukraine's right as a sovereign nation?

Plus, it's laughable for Oliver Stone to complain about demonizing foreign leaders when he's spent the last eight years demonizing Ukraine's democratically elected government as a neo-nazi US puppet regime while sucking up to shameless dictators like Putin (whose anti-"gay propaganda" law he defended and whom he asked to be his daughter's godfather) or Kazakhstan's Nazarbayev ("What’s wrong with celebrating Nazarbayev for 30 years in office? Give him credit for building up the country and keeping the peace and not turning it into a trash heap like Ukraine.")

Dera Mirakaze, 
I cant do anything against the anti Russian feeling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_of_Auschwitz_concentration_camp
On 27 January 1945, Auschwitz concentration camp—a Nazi concentration camp and extermination camp in occupied Poland where more than a million people were murdered as part of the Nazi's "final solution" to the Jewish questionwas liberated by the Red Army during the Vistula–Oder Offensive

If you don't like the word "liberation" because the Red Army was the author of the liberation of Auschwitz and Berlin, I don't know what I can do about it.
The word "Liberation" is correct. It's written in every Italian book of history.
Try entering the Wikipedia page and try to change it.

If you don't like Oliver Stone and Noam Chomsky because in your opinion they distort history, or believe that the US is the empire of evil, you are free not to take them into consideration.

On the contrary, I believe that Noam Chomsky is one of the few free and independent authors capable of distinguishing news from propaganda, and as regards the Kosovo-born crimes he just cites the sources. Dont need to read Chomsky to understand that the Nato war, presented as an opportunity to stop the massacres, on the contrary, has produced more massacres than those that occurred before. It does not seem appropriate to me to elaborate on this topic here. But of course you are free to think that that war was right and that it stopped the massacres. As always, if we have different information, it is difficult to discuss about a topic.

Oliver Stone is not an intellectual like Chomsky but he has the power to interview the most hated heads of state in America, because he wants to try to understand those characters beyond the usual clichés of propaganda.
As I said, there are different narratives about the Ukrainian repression in the Donbass, there is the pro-American (and pro-Ukrainian) narrative and there is the pro-Russian narrative, like that of Stone. I have not seen his documentary on those facts but only his interview with Putin.
However, I believe that the Western narrative is as always anti-Russian, and that therefore Stone's work (but also what I read from various other sources) is important to get a more complex and balanced idea.
In any case, the crimes committed by the Ukrainian government are undeniable, and the fact that the army officially has neo-Nazi battalions in its ranks is a deplorable thing, which also concerns Zelensky, because a Democrat would not agree to regulate neo-Nazi battalions.

Anyway, I reported Stone's facebook message because I think he hit the spot: Despite his many reasons (the enlarging of the Nato etc.), Putin made a serious mistake in invading Ukraine (Stone is a pacifist, like me), and this will create serious damage to all of Europe, and to resolve this situation, it would take a US-RUSSIA direct line as there was in the days of Kennedy - Khrushchev. There is a lack of statesmen capable of mediating, and this is because the US-RUSSIA dialogue has been broken, due to the fault of both leaders, Biden (who, as soon as he was elected president, called Putin a "criminal", coldly, for no particular reason) and Putin who has closed to America. This is the reason why I posted Stone's message.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2022 at 18:40
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2022 at 18:54
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:


In any case, there was peace between the US and Russia. And if you criticize Russia for believing in that deal, it's a bit like criticizing those who leave their bicycle without a lock instead of criticizing the thief who steals it. In other words, it seems to me objectively clear that the responsibility for breaking that peace lies with the American, that is, with those who broke the pact.
(...)
I am writing OBJECTIVELY because it was also clear to the Americans that by expanding NATO to the East this would be perceived as an act of war, rather than peace
(1) I'm not criticising the Russians for being disappointed or for having believed in the deal. I'm only criticising what Putin now makes of it. Honestly, sh... happens. I'd be happier without it, but Putin is no stranger to saying things and then acting differently, and neither was Yeltsin (Gorbachev maybe, a truly exceptional character in world politics, but even he was warned). Now what can be done with it? One can use it to justify a war if this is what one wants, but nobody should claim that this is a necessary consequence. 
(2) Admitting countries to NATO that wanted to be members may have been a mistake (that's controversial), but it's not an act of war by any generally accepted standard. Of course it may be perceived as such, but then those who perceive it like that have to take responsibility for their perception. This is about perception, communication, interpretation. There's nothing objective about it.
(3) The thing is that there were different interests and tough choices to make. I don't claim that it had to be like this, and neither that this was the best possible course of action. But there were some good reasons for this as there were reasons against it. You go on about the latter but ignore the former, and this is what I take issue with: The legitimate security interest of the Eastern European countries is absent from your reasoning. I'm not somebody who claims he knows better what should have been done or not done, and neither can I know what would've happened had the Americans handled the situation differently. You may be right or wrong that we'd have peace now had NATO not accepted new members. I doubt it but ultimately we will never know, and there's no truth about counterfactuals. But anyway, these countries wanted to join NATO and they had bloody good reasons for that (and I suppose you won't find many in these countries who now regret it). 
 

Christian, 
In some cases the US has not limited themself to admitting countries that had requested to join NATO, but have directly invited some country to enter.
Try to read the Guardian's article:

Russia’s military offensive against Ukraine is an act of aggression that will make already worrisome tensions between Nato and Moscow even more dangerous. The west’s new cold war with Russia has turned hot. Vladimir Putin bears primary responsibility for this latest development, but Nato’s arrogant, tone‐​deaf policy toward Russia over the past quarter‐​century deserves a large share as well. Analysts committed to a US foreign policy of realism and restraint have warned for more than a quarter‐​century that continuing to expand the most powerful military alliance in history toward another major power would not end well. The war in Ukraine provides definitive confirmation that it did not.

Thinking through the Ukraine crisis – the causes

“It would be extraordinarily difficult to expand Nato eastward without that action’s being viewed by Russia as unfriendly. Even the most modest schemes would bring the alliance to the borders of the old Soviet Union. Some of the more ambitious versions would have the alliance virtually surround the Russian Federation itself.” I wrote those words in 1994, in my book Beyond Nato: Staying Out of Europe’s Wars, at a time when expansion proposals merely constituted occasional speculation in foreign policy seminars in New York and Washington. I added that expansion “would constitute a needless provocation of Russia”.

What was not publicly known at the time was that Bill Clinton’s administration had already made the fateful decision the previous year to push for including some former Warsaw Pact countries in Nato. The administration would soon propose inviting Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary to become members, and the US Senate approved adding those countries to the North Atlantic Treaty in 1998. It would be the first of several waves of membership expansion.

Even that first stage provoked Russian opposition and anger. In her memoir, Madeleine Albright, Clinton’s secretary of state, concedes that “[Russian president Boris] Yeltsin and his countrymen were strongly opposed to enlargement, seeing it as a strategy for exploiting their vulnerability and moving Europe’s dividing line to the east, leaving them isolated.”

Strobe Talbott, deputy secretary of state, similarly described the Russian attitude. “Many Russians see Nato as a vestige of the cold war, inherently directed against their country. They point out that they have disbanded the Warsaw Pact, their military alliance, and ask why the west should not do the same.” It was an excellent question, and neither the Clinton administration nor its successors provided even a remotely convincing answer.

George Kennan, the intellectual father of America’s containment policy during the cold war, perceptively warned in a May 1998 New York Times interview about what the Senate’s ratification of Nato’s first round of expansion would set in motion. “I think it is the beginning of a new cold war,” Kennan stated. ”I think the Russians will gradually react quite adversely and it will affect their policies. I think it is a tragic mistake. There was no reason for this whatsoever. No one was threatening anybody else.”

He was right, but US and Nato leaders proceeded with new rounds of expansion, including the provocative step of adding the three Baltic republics. Those countries not only had been part of the Soviet Union, but they had also been part of Russia’s empire during the Czarist era. That wave of expansion now had Nato perched on the border of the Russian Federation.

Moscow’s patience with Nato’s ever more intrusive behavior was wearing thin. The last reasonably friendly warning from Russia that the alliance needed to back off came in March 2007, when Putin addressed the annual Munich security conference. “Nato has put its frontline forces on our borders,” Putin complained. Nato expansion “represents a serious provocation that reduces the level of mutual trust. And we have the right to ask: against whom is this expansion intended? And what happened to the assurances our western partners made after the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact?”

In his memoir, Duty, Robert M Gates, who served as secretary of defense in the administrations of both George W Bush and Barack Obama, stated his belief that “the relationship with Russia had been badly mismanaged after [George HW] Bush left office in 1993”. Among other missteps, “US agreements with the Romanian and Bulgarian governments to rotate troops through bases in those countries was a needless provocation.” In an implicit rebuke to the younger Bush, Gates asserted that “trying to bring Georgia and Ukraine into Nato was truly overreaching”. That move, he contended, was a case of “recklessly ignoring what the Russians considered their own vital national interests”.

The following year, the Kremlin demonstrated that its discontent with Nato’s continuing incursions into Russia’s security zone had moved beyond verbal objections. Moscow exploited a foolish provocation by Georgia’s pro‐​western government to launch a military offensive that brought Russian troops to the outskirts of the capital. Thereafter, Russia permanently detached two secessionist‐​minded Georgian regions and put them under effective Russian control.

Western (especially US) leaders continued to blow through red warning light after a red warning light, however. The Obama administration’s shockingly arrogant meddling in Ukraine’s internal political affairs in 2013 and 2014 to help demonstrators overthrow Ukraine’s elected, pro‐​Russia president was the single most brazen provocation, and it caused tensions to spike. Moscow immediately responded by seizing and annexing Crimea, and a new cold war was underway with a vengeance.

Could the Ukraine crisis have been avoided?

Events during the past few months constituted the last chance to avoid a hot war in eastern Europe. Putin demanded that Nato provide guarantees on several security issues. Specifically, the Kremlin wanted binding assurances that the alliance would reduce the scope of its growing military presence in eastern Europe and would never offer membership to Ukraine. He backed up those demands with a massive military buildup on Ukraine’s borders.

The Biden administration’s response to Russia’s quest for meaningful western concessions and security guarantees was tepid and evasive. Putin then clearly decided to escalate matters. Washington’s attempt to make Ukraine a Nato political and military pawn (even absent the country’s formal membership in the alliance) may end up costing the Ukrainian people dearly.

The Ukraine tragedy

History will show that Washington’s treatment of Russia in the decades following the demise of the Soviet Union was a policy blunder of epic proportions. It was entirely predictable that Nato expansion would ultimately lead to a tragic, perhaps violent, breach of relations with Moscow. Perceptive analysts warned of the likely consequences, but those warnings went unheeded. We are now paying the price for the US foreign policy establishment’s myopia and arrogance.

  • Ted Galen Carpenter is senior fellow for defense and foreign policy studies at the Cato Institute. Carpenter served as Cato’s director of foreign policy studies from 1986 to 1995 and as vice-president for defense and foreign policy studies from 1995 to 2011

  • This piece originally appeared in 19fortyfive

Thank you for joining us from Italy.



Edited by jamesbaldwin - March 05 2022 at 19:03
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2022 at 19:05
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:




pffff..




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2022 at 19:06
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Visa and Mastercard have cut off Russia entirely. This was one of the things Zelensky asked for from the US senators today.

ouch...that's going to leave a mark Thumbs Up
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2022 at 19:09
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Can anyone recommend what is the best charity organization to donate money for refugees?


not yet... but your post earlier got me thinking I need to give something.. well.. a lot.  

I haven't decided where yet... the Post has a list of good ones.


I am leaning towards Razom right now. I think I am waiting until I read something concrete .. of a group on the ground there and doing the good deed... some of those groups seem like good ones ... in a general sense like Doctors Without Borders but I'm keen on something Ukraine specific..
Thank you for these recommendations. Here is a Lithuanian group that is trying to help:
https://www.blue-yellow.lt/en/

nice .. checking it out. Though got shamed with my Doctors w/o B's general mention.. as they seem to be knee deep in it trying to save lives in Mariupol (among other places surely)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2022 at 19:19
^ Yeah I think I may go with the Lithuanian site. My friend speaks highly of them. I wanted to go with either a Polish or Lithuanian site, these are the people who will really know the deal in Ukraine, like what is needed and how to get it there.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2022 at 19:37
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Visa and Mastercard have cut off Russia entirely. This was one of the things Zelensky asked for from the US senators today.

ouch...that's going to leave a mark Thumbs Up

Not necessarily. they can use UnionPay. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2022 at 19:47
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:


In any case, there was peace between the US and Russia. And if you criticize Russia for believing in that deal, it's a bit like criticizing those who leave their bicycle without a lock instead of criticizing the thief who steals it. In other words, it seems to me objectively clear that the responsibility for breaking that peace lies with the American, that is, with those who broke the pact.
(...)
I am writing OBJECTIVELY because it was also clear to the Americans that
by expanding NATO to the East this would be perceived as an act of war,
rather than peace
(1) I'm not criticising the Russians for being disappointed or for having believed in the deal. I'm only criticising what Putin now makes of it. Honestly, sh... happens. I'd be happier without it, but Putin is no stranger to saying things and then acting differently, and neither was Yeltsin (Gorbachev maybe, a truly exceptional character in world politics, but even he was warned). Now what can be done with it? One can use it to justify a war if this is what one wants, but nobody should claim that this is a necessary consequence. 
(2) Admitting countries to NATO that wanted to be members may have been a mistake (that's controversial), but it's not an act of war by any generally accepted standard. Of course it may be perceived as such, but then those who perceive it like that have to take responsibility for their perception. This is about perception, communication, interpretation. There's nothing objective about it.
(3) The thing is that there were different interests and tough choices to make. I don't claim that it had to be like this, and neither that this was the best possible course of action. But there were some good reasons for this as there were reasons against it. You go on about the latter but ignore the former, and this is what I take issue with: The legitimate security interest of the Eastern European countries is absent from your reasoning. I'm not somebody who claims he knows better what should have been done or not done, and neither can I know what would've happened had the Americans handled the situation differently. You may be right or wrong that we'd have peace now had NATO not accepted new members. I doubt it but ultimately we will never know, and there's no truth about counterfactuals. But anyway, these countries wanted to join NATO and they had bloody good reasons for that (and I suppose you won't find many in these countries who now regret it). 
 


Christian, 
<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">In some cases the US has not limited themself to admitting countries that had requested to join NATO, but have directly invited some country to enter.
<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">Try to read the Guardian's article:<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/28/nato-expansion-war-russia-ukraine<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">
<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;"><div ="0"="" id="main" ="dcr-47hyjw"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; font-variant-numeric: inherit; font-variant-east-asian: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: medium; line-height: inherit; font-family: "Times New Roman"; vertical-align: line; outline: 0px; color: rgb18, 18, 18; : rgb254, 249, 245;"><div ="article--commercial-or="" article--viewer-or="" dcr-ucgxn1"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font: inherit; vertical-align: line; : relative;"><p ="dcr-go4h8e"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px 0px 1rem; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: 1.0625rem; line-height: 1.5; font-family: GuardianTextEgyptian, "Guardian Text Egyptian Web", Georgia, serif; vertical-align: line; word-break: break-word;"><span ="dcr-go4h8e"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px 0px 1rem; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: 1.0625rem; line-height: 1.5; vertical-align: line; word-break: break-word;">Russia’s military offensive against Ukraine is an act of aggression that will make already worrisome tensions between Nato and Moscow even more dangerous. The west’s new cold war with Russia has turned hot. Vladimir Putin bears primary responsibility for this latest development, but Nato’s arrogant, tone‐​deaf policy toward Russia over the past quarter‐​century deserves a large share as well. Analysts committed to a US foreign policy of realism and restraint have warned for more than a quarter‐​century that continuing to expand the most powerful military alliance in history toward another major power would not end well. The war in Ukraine provides definitive confirmation that it did not.</span>

<h2 style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: 1.25rem; line-height: 1.15; font-family: "GH Guardian line", "Guardian Egyptian Web", Georgia, serif; vertical-align: line;">Thinking through the Ukraine crisis – the causes</h2><div id="sign-in-gate" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font: inherit; vertical-align: line;"><p ="dcr-go4h8e"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px 0px 1rem; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: 1.0625rem; line-height: 1.5; font-family: GuardianTextEgyptian, "Guardian Text Egyptian Web", Georgia, serif; vertical-align: line; word-break: break-word;">“It would be extraordinarily difficult to expand Nato eastward without that action’s being viewed by Russia as unfriendly. Even the most modest schemes would bring the alliance to the borders of the old Soviet Union. Some of the more ambitious versions would have the alliance virtually surround the Russian Federation itself.” I wrote those words in 1994, in my book Beyond Nato: Staying Out of Europe’s Wars, at a time when expansion proposals merely constituted occasional speculation in foreign policy seminars in New York and Washington. I added that expansion “would constitute a needless provocation of Russia”.

<figure id="b6a9a52b-7a3a-4c47-b9d5-0cd837a82d32" -spacefinder-component="rich-" -spacefinder-role="rich" -spacefinder-="model.dotcomrendering.pageElements.RichBlockElement" ="="" dcr-1mfia18"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px 20px 4px -240px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font: inherit; vertical-align: line; : left; clear: left; width: 220px; : relative;"><gu-island name="RichComponent" deferuntil="idle" props=""richIndex":3,"element":"":"https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/28/vladimir-putin-war-russia-ukraine","text":"Why Vladimir Putin has already lost war | Yuval Noah Harari","prefix":"Related: ","role":"rich","_":"model.dotcomrendering.pageElements.RichBlockElement","elementId":"b6a9a52b-7a3a-4c47-b9d5-0cd837a82d32","ajax":"https://api.nextgen.guardianapps.co.uk"" -gu-ready="true" style="-sizing: border-;"><div -print-layout="hide" --name="rich--3 | 3" -component="rich-" -name="" ="-1af0gwb"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font: inherit; vertical-align: line; : rgb199, 70, 0;"><div ="-s7oxzu"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font: inherit; vertical-align: line; : rgb246, 246, 246;">[URL=https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/28/vladimir-putin-war-russia-ukraine" rel="nofollow]<div ="-1gjb8as"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border-width: 1px 0px 0px; border-top-style: solid; border-right-style: initial; border-bottom-style: initial; border-left-style: initial; border-top-color: rgb199, 70, 0; border-right-color: initial; border-bottom-color: initial; border-left-color: initial; border-: initial; font: inherit; vertical-align: line;]<div ="-1d91meq"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px; padding: 2px 5px 5px; border: 0px; font: inherit; vertical-align: line;]<div ="-m4qltb"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 0px 10px; border: 0px; font: inherit; vertical-align: line; color: rgb0, 0, 0;]<div ="-1gqsble"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px; padding: 1px 0px 5px; border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: 1.25rem; line-height: 1.15; font-family: "GH Guardian line", "Guardian Egyptian Web", Georgia, serif; vertical-align: line;]<span ="-srstwr"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font: inherit; vertical-align: line;]<svg view="4 4 24 16" ="-f9ay0g"="]<path d="M9.2776 8H14.0473C13.4732 12.5489 12.9653 17.0095 12.7445 22H4C4.79495 17.142 6.4511 12.5489 9.2776 8ZM20.3852 8H25.0887C24.5808 12.5489 24.0067 17.0095 23.7859 22H15.0635C15.9688 17.142 17.5587 12.5489 20.3852 8Z]</path></svg></span>Why Vladimir Putin has already lost this war<div ="-viq9or"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-style: italic; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: 1.25rem; line-height: 1.15; font-family: "GH Guardian line", "Guardian Egyptian Web", Georgia, serif; vertical-align: line; color: rgb199, 70, 0;]Yuval Noah Harari<div ="-11vmi24"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px; padding: 2px 0px 0px; border: 0px; font: inherit; vertical-align: line; fill: rgb199, 70, 0;]<svg width="24" height="24" view="0 0 24 24]<g fill-rule="evenodd]<path ="rich-__arrow-icon"="" d="m12 0c-6.627 0-12 5.373-12 12 0 6.627 5.373 12 12 12 6.627 0 12-5.373 12-12 0-6.627-5.373-12-12-12m.21 19l-.637-.668 4.888-6.326h-11.465v-1.01h11.465l-4.888-6.333.637-.668 6.79 7.158v.685l-6.79 7.157]</path></g></svg><div ="-dobi02"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 4px; border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: 1.0625rem; line-height: 25px; font-family: "GH Guardian line", "Guardian Egyptian Web", Georgia, serif; vertical-align: top; display: inline-block; height: 30px;]Read more[/URL]</gu-island></figure><p ="dcr-go4h8e"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px 0px 1rem; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: 1.0625rem; line-height: 1.5; font-family: GuardianTextEgyptian, "Guardian Text Egyptian Web", Georgia, serif; vertical-align: line; word-break: break-word;">What was not publicly known at the time was that Bill Clinton’s administration had already made the fateful decision the previous year to push for including some former Warsaw Pact countries in Nato. The administration would soon propose inviting Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary to become members, and the US Senate approved adding those countries to the North Atlantic Treaty in 1998. It would be the first of several waves of membership expansion.

<p ="dcr-go4h8e"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px 0px 1rem; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: 1.0625rem; line-height: 1.5; font-family: GuardianTextEgyptian, "Guardian Text Egyptian Web", Georgia, serif; vertical-align: line; word-break: break-word;">Even that first stage provoked Russian opposition and anger. In her memoir, Madeleine Albright, Clinton’s secretary of state, concedes that “[Russian president Boris] Yeltsin and his countrymen were strongly opposed to enlargement, seeing it as a strategy for exploiting their vulnerability and moving Europe’s dividing line to the east, leaving them isolated.”

<p ="dcr-go4h8e"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px 0px 1rem; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: 1.0625rem; line-height: 1.5; font-family: GuardianTextEgyptian, "Guardian Text Egyptian Web", Georgia, serif; vertical-align: line; word-break: break-word;">Strobe Talbott, deputy secretary of state, similarly described the Russian attitude. “Many Russians see Nato as a vestige of the cold war, inherently directed against their country. They point out that they have disbanded the Warsaw Pact, <em style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: line;">their military alliance, and ask why the west should not do the same.” It was an excellent question, and neither the Clinton administration nor its successors provided even a remotely convincing answer.

<p ="dcr-go4h8e"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px 0px 1rem; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: 1.0625rem; line-height: 1.5; font-family: GuardianTextEgyptian, "Guardian Text Egyptian Web", Georgia, serif; vertical-align: line; word-break: break-word;">George Kennan, the intellectual father of America’s containment policy during the cold war, perceptively warned in a May 1998 New York Times interview about what the Senate’s ratification of Nato’s first round of expansion would set in motion. “I think it is the beginning of a new cold war,” Kennan stated. ”I think the Russians will gradually react quite adversely and it will affect their policies. I think it is a tragic mistake. There was no reason for this whatsoever. No one was threatening anybody else.”

<p ="dcr-go4h8e"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px 0px 1rem; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: 1.0625rem; line-height: 1.5; font-family: GuardianTextEgyptian, "Guardian Text Egyptian Web", Georgia, serif; vertical-align: line; word-break: break-word;">He was right, but US and Nato leaders proceeded with new rounds of expansion, including the provocative step of adding the three Baltic republics. Those countries not only had been part of the Soviet Union, but they had also been part of Russia’s empire during the Czarist era. That wave of expansion now had Nato perched on the border of the Russian Federation.

<p ="dcr-go4h8e"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px 0px 1rem; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: 1.0625rem; line-height: 1.5; font-family: GuardianTextEgyptian, "Guardian Text Egyptian Web", Georgia, serif; vertical-align: line; word-break: break-word;">Moscow’s patience with Nato’s ever more intrusive behavior was wearing thin. The last reasonably friendly warning from Russia that the alliance needed to back off came in March 2007, when Putin addressed the annual Munich security conference. “Nato has put its frontline forces on our borders,” Putin complained. Nato expansion “represents a serious provocation that reduces the level of mutual trust. And we have the right to ask: against whom is this expansion intended? And what happened to the assurances our western partners made after the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact?”

<p ="dcr-go4h8e"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px 0px 1rem; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: 1.0625rem; line-height: 1.5; font-family: GuardianTextEgyptian, "Guardian Text Egyptian Web", Georgia, serif; vertical-align: line; word-break: break-word;">In his memoir, Duty, Robert M Gates, who served as secretary of defense in the administrations of both George W Bush and Barack Obama, stated his belief that “the relationship with Russia had been badly mismanaged after [George HW] Bush left office in 1993”. Among other missteps, “US agreements with the Romanian and Bulgarian governments to rotate troops through bases in those countries was a needless provocation.” In an implicit rebuke to the younger Bush, Gates asserted that “trying to bring Georgia and Ukraine into Nato was truly overreaching”. That move, he contended, was a case of “recklessly ignoring what the Russians considered their own vital national interests”.

<p ="dcr-go4h8e"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px 0px 1rem; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: 1.0625rem; line-height: 1.5; font-family: GuardianTextEgyptian, "Guardian Text Egyptian Web", Georgia, serif; vertical-align: line; word-break: break-word;">The following year, the Kremlin demonstrated that its discontent with Nato’s continuing incursions into Russia’s security zone had moved beyond verbal objections. Moscow exploited a foolish provocation by Georgia’s pro‐​western government to launch a military offensive that brought Russian troops to the outskirts of the capital. Thereafter, Russia permanently detached two secessionist‐​minded Georgian regions and put them under effective Russian control.

<p ="dcr-go4h8e"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px 0px 1rem; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: 1.0625rem; line-height: 1.5; font-family: GuardianTextEgyptian, "Guardian Text Egyptian Web", Georgia, serif; vertical-align: line; word-break: break-word;">Western (especially US) leaders continued to blow through red warning light after a red warning light, however. The Obama administration’s shockingly arrogant meddling in Ukraine’s internal political affairs in 2013 and 2014 to help demonstrators overthrow Ukraine’s elected, pro‐​Russia president was the single most brazen provocation, and it caused tensions to spike. Moscow immediately responded by seizing and annexing Crimea, and a new cold war was underway with a vengeance.

<h2 style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: 1.25rem; line-height: 1.15; font-family: "GH Guardian line", "Guardian Egyptian Web", Georgia, serif; vertical-align: line;">Could the Ukraine crisis have been avoided?</h2><p ="dcr-go4h8e"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px 0px 1rem; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: 1.0625rem; line-height: 1.5; font-family: GuardianTextEgyptian, "Guardian Text Egyptian Web", Georgia, serif; vertical-align: line; word-break: break-word;">Events during the past few months constituted the last chance to avoid a hot war in eastern Europe. Putin demanded that Nato provide guarantees on several security issues. Specifically, the Kremlin wanted binding assurances that the alliance would reduce the scope of its growing military presence in eastern Europe and would never offer membership to Ukraine. He backed up those demands with a massive military buildup on Ukraine’s borders.

<p ="dcr-go4h8e"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px 0px 1rem; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: 1.0625rem; line-height: 1.5; font-family: GuardianTextEgyptian, "Guardian Text Egyptian Web", Georgia, serif; vertical-align: line; word-break: break-word;">The Biden administration’s response to Russia’s quest for meaningful western concessions and security guarantees was tepid and evasive. Putin then clearly decided to escalate matters. Washington’s attempt to make Ukraine a Nato political and military pawn (even absent the country’s formal membership in the alliance) may end up costing the Ukrainian people dearly.

<h2 style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: 1.25rem; line-height: 1.15; font-family: "GH Guardian line", "Guardian Egyptian Web", Georgia, serif; vertical-align: line;">The Ukraine tragedy</h2><p ="dcr-go4h8e"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px 0px 1rem; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: 1.0625rem; line-height: 1.5; font-family: GuardianTextEgyptian, "Guardian Text Egyptian Web", Georgia, serif; vertical-align: line; word-break: break-word;">History will show that Washington’s treatment of Russia in the decades following the demise of the Soviet Union was a policy blunder of epic proportions. It was entirely predictable that Nato expansion would ultimately lead to a tragic, perhaps violent, breach of relations with Moscow. Perceptive analysts warned of the likely consequences, but those warnings went unheeded. We are now paying the price for the US foreign policy establishment’s myopia and arrogance.

<ul ="dcr-go4h8e"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px 0px 1rem; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: 1.0625rem; line-height: 1.5; font-family: GuardianTextEgyptian, "Guardian Text Egyptian Web", Georgia, serif; vertical-align: line; list-style: none; word-break: break-word;"><li style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px 0px 0.375rem; padding: 0px 0px 0px 1.25rem; border: 0px; font: inherit; vertical-align: line;"><p style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font: inherit; vertical-align: line; display: inline;">Ted Galen Carpenter is senior fellow for defense and foreign policy studies at the Cato Institute. Carpenter served as Cato’s director of foreign policy studies from 1986 to 1995 and as vice-president for defense and foreign policy studies from 1995 to 2011

<li style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px 0px 0.375rem; padding: 0px 0px 0px 1.25rem; border: 0px; font: inherit; vertical-align: line;"><p style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font: inherit; vertical-align: line; display: inline;">This piece originally appeared in 19fortyfive

<div id="slot--end" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; font-variant-numeric: inherit; font-variant-east-asian: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: medium; line-height: inherit; font-family: "Times New Roman"; vertical-align: line; color: rgb18, 18, 18; : rgb254, 249, 245;"><div ="-rmd"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 18px 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font: inherit; vertical-align: line; clear: both;"><section ="-jjd5tl"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px; padding: 4px 8px 12px; border-width: 1px 0px 0px; border-top-style: solid; border-right-style: initial; border-bottom-style: initial; border-left-style: initial; border-top-color: rgb255, 229, 0; border-right-color: initial; border-bottom-color: initial; border-left-color: initial; border-: initial; font: inherit; vertical-align: line; : rgb246, 246, 246;"><div ="-1qm1lh"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px 0px 16px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font: inherit; vertical-align: line;"><div ="-1r55tqu"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font: inherit; vertical-align: line; flex-direction: column-reverse;"><h2 ="-1xg62vk"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px 0px 12px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: 1.25rem; line-height: 1.15; font-family: "GH Guardian line", "Guardian Egyptian Web", Georgia, serif; vertical-align: line;"><span style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font: inherit; vertical-align: line;"></span></h2><p ="-i81n1e"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px auto 8px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: 1.0625rem; line-height: 1.5; font-family: GuardianTextEgyptian, "Guardian Text Egyptian Web", Georgia, serif; vertical-align: line;"><span style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font: inherit; vertical-align: line;">Thank you for joining us from Italy.</span>

</section>



Must you persist with this anti NATO rant? People are dying by the thousands and you persist with this narcissist babble of faux realpolitics that does the situation no good at all. What's wrong with you?

Edited by SteveG - March 05 2022 at 19:56
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2022 at 21:56
For crying out loud can we quote a post without all the coding chaos, it's unreadable.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2022 at 02:28
Originally posted by Archisorcerus Archisorcerus wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

"Power".

No one in the history of Russia has ever chosen who leads them. ;-)

Oh, you seem too confident in your "end of discussion" toned take, before it even begins. Lots of other countries "picked" maniacs as their leaders. Should I give any example?


Well, if you have an Honours Degree in History,  with a 40 year interest in Russian history, was engaged to a Russian, speak Russian, have visited Russia, have friends in Ukraine and were going over to Kharkiv on business later this year, I'll be interested in your opinion. 

Unfortunately, my facts are somewhat better than your opinion. 

To all the hair splitters here

Putin is mad
Stop trying to make sense of it
Stop trying to apply inappropriate historical precedent to it
It doesn't need analysis 
Your opinions are worth feck all 
Your actions count. 

My wife was volunteering at a Ukrainian Aid for Refugee centre yesterday. We donated three crates of stuff to help refugees and also to the Red Cross.

I have spent two weeks on Telegram to friends in Ukraine to make sure they're supported - at least morally - I'm doing what I can. 

Stop splitting hairs here or thinking that your opinion is of any sense or use whatsoever. It isn't. 

If you care, do something practical. 



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