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Woon Deadn 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: March 30 2010 Location: P Status: Offline Points: 1017 |
 Posted: March 05 2022 at 08:18 |
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Sir, with all my respect, for the sake of correctness, Chechnya is not a sovereign nation, it is the part of Russia. Following your logics, Alaska and Hawaii should also be called sovereign nations...
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Favourite Band: Gentle Giant
Favourite Writer: Robert Sheckley Favourite Horror Writer: Jean Ray Favourite Computer Game: Tiny Toon - Buster's Hidden Treasure (Sega Mega Drive/Genesis) |
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jamesbaldwin
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: September 25 2015 Location: Milano Status: Offline Points: 6052 |
Posted: March 05 2022 at 09:09 |
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In this video of 2019 Luciano Canfora, a Marxist professor (therefore a leftist man) among the most prestigious in Italy, compares with Sergio Romano, former ambassador to NATO and Russia, a right-wing man, about "What remains of communism?" in Europe. And what Romano says (38'.42')? I make a paraphrase. He says: "the United States, coldly, changed its policy towards Russia with Clinton, annexing the states of the former Warsaw Pact one by one, and Russia had not spied the US at all." And he asks: "how would you feel in the shoes of a Russian who sees NATO's war machine advancing towards you year after year? You must know that NATO," says Romano, "is not a political alliance, it is just a military alliance with the aim of making war, every day its commander goes to the office and plans the new war, he is paid for it." And he adds: "the position of the United States in recent years has always flattened on NATO, and the United States are in some ways a great democracy, as for civil rights, but they are a "military democracy". So the gravity of the situation in East Europe was determined by the enlargement of NATO." Year 2019. |
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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suitkees
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
Posted: March 05 2022 at 09:28 |
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Well, this is a very "Russian" point of view. I'm not going into your other comparisons, other then saying that in the times of Adam and Eve there were no countries and everything went well... up to a certain point... 
Presenting it as an annexation is already a very distorted way of presenting it, and rather ridiculous, in my point of view. And thinking that Russia did not spy on the US is naive (and untrue as recent history has proven).
Again, there is nothing objective in this kind of discourse. On the contrary, it is very ideologically charged. That NATO is a military alliance, everybody knows, but not with the aim of making war, but with the aim of defending its members if/when there is war. That's something fundamentally different! Again, I'm not willing to adopt Putin's NATO narrative; it's a pretext. |
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 15151 |
Posted: March 05 2022 at 09:44 |
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I have never denied that the US promised this to the Russians at some point. I actually give it to you that it makes sense to have this in mind understanding the current situation. I'm for sure not one of those who thinks that this is all about Putin being a madman and nothing else. I however disagree with your way of portraying this... "the ultimate sin"? I ask you! There isn't even a signed contract about this. We may not like the fact that promises are broken in politics all the time, but that's how it is. Putin did enough of that, the Soviets did, and of course the NATO also did it more than once. For sure the Russians could have understood that the mood in the Easter European countries was anti-Russian, and that they wouldn't like to stand on their own against what was and is still the biggest or second biggest nuclear power in the world, which has a record of not respecting the independence of these countries. I agree with you that what has happened was problematic, but portraying this as American "annexation" is very wrong. These countries wanted it and asked for it, and for very good reasons. This couldn't have been a surprise to the Russians, and neither that later US governments would not feel committed to Reagan's promise. I'm for sure critical of many things NATO did, but you know that Putin is a ex-KGB authoritarian far right nationalist, who has said clearly that inside or outside NATO he doesn't think that the Ukraine has a right to be a state. Nobody could have guaranteed the Eastern European countries safety outside NATO even in the 1990s, let alone today. So they wanted in and they got in (those who did that is), and good on them! And now Putin makes the people of Finland and Sweden feel the same it seems. The basis of your whole point to me still seems to be that Russian security interests are important whereas Eastern European security interests are to be ignored.
Well some say this and some say the opposite. By the way shouting out OBJECTIVELY in capital letters will not change that this is the most meaningless word in you whole text.
What do you think of the Russia-Georgian war?
Edited by Lewian - March 05 2022 at 11:49 |
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10679 |
Posted: March 05 2022 at 09:53 |
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News from friends in Ukraine; everyone is getting out of these cities; Rivne, Korets and Zytomierz and heading to Poland, they are at the border now.
News from friends in Poland; Polish troops are starting to gather at the border of Belarus, my friend's mother is leaving the border town of Przemysl and heading away from the border to Plock. Edited by Easy Money - March 05 2022 at 10:35 |
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10679 |
Posted: March 05 2022 at 09:58 |
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https://www.blue-yellow.lt/en/ |
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Archisorcerus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2022 Location: Izmir Status: Offline Points: 2707 |
Posted: March 05 2022 at 10:04 |
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I really appreciate your such input(s). I tend to find them more reliable than what I hear on the news. Thank you John. (Erm... I wanted to say Mr. X, but I don't know your surname sir, sorry.  )
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10679 |
Posted: March 05 2022 at 10:37 |
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^ Thanks, I edited my post to make it clear that Polish troops were gathering near the border of Belarus.
Edited by Easy Money - March 05 2022 at 10:39 |
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10679 |
Posted: March 05 2022 at 11:03 |
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News from my friend in Lithuania:
Russian authorities locked Facebook and Twitter for all Russia since according to them Westerners use them for anti-Russian propaganda. And from today everyone who will call Russian attack on Ukraine "the war" in public will go to jail for 1,5 yr, doing same in internet means up to 15 yrs in jail. Edited by Easy Money - March 05 2022 at 11:04 |
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
Posted: March 05 2022 at 11:15 |
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Putin has said in a statement that videos of destruction in Ukraine are nothing more than faked videos by the West and the Russians should ignore them. Is there no end to this madness?
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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Woon Deadn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2010 Location: P Status: Offline Points: 1017 |
Posted: March 05 2022 at 11:26 |
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Again, sir, with all my respect, I hope all of us stay adequate, OK? It is not any quote-unquote point of view. It is just a historical fact. We're not talking of the times of Adam and Eve, we're talking of the history of the last centuries. You have said in one of your previous posts that Russia attacked the sovereign nation of Chechnya... That sounded pretty inadequate. Because at the time of attack as well as nowadays as well as before the 1917 Revolution, Chechnya was the part of Russia. Russia attacking the sovereign nation of Chechnya sounds pretty much the same as France attacking the sovereign nation of Provence... Or, more correctly, as the USA attacking the sovereign nation of Alaska or Hawaii. We may like some things or not, may like certain countries or not - but let us never lose our heads and promote some inadequacy. At least, in this respectable site. You're definitely promoting your views - i.e., tastes. I am promoting accuracy, first of all.
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Favourite Band: Gentle Giant
Favourite Writer: Robert Sheckley Favourite Horror Writer: Jean Ray Favourite Computer Game: Tiny Toon - Buster's Hidden Treasure (Sega Mega Drive/Genesis) |
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suitkees
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
Posted: March 05 2022 at 11:35 |
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Well, I'm as pretentious as you are, in this. What is accuracy, but a concordance of a representation with an interpretation? Don't pretend you have "the truth" in your possession.
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
Posted: March 05 2022 at 12:00 |
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If Muslim Chechnya is part of Russia, why did they fight a brutal war? Surely, fraternal brothers who speak the same language, the same culture, pray to the same God (or lack thereof) and even look alike, should not be engaged in any conflict . Maybe its was NATO or that famous Israeli/American lobby group , known as ISIS . I just wonder how Imperial Russia went about growing its empire? Trade perhaps? If NATO expansion is an OBJECTIVE act of war, how come there is still no NO FLY ZONE ?
Edited by tszirmay - March 05 2022 at 12:07 |
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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jamesbaldwin
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 25 2015 Location: Milano Status: Offline Points: 6052 |
Posted: March 05 2022 at 13:09 |
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Before you say you asked me a question and I was SILENT: 1) I do not write NO MORE PUTIN because it is not my right to decide by whom the Russians should be governed (knowing full well that a man who keep the power for 25 years is an anomaly for a democracy, he is closer to a dictatorship) and also because history it teaches that when the West arrogated to itself the pretense of changing the dictator of a state, it produced worse disasters. 2) Asking for the No Fly Zone means that NATO enters the war, and therefore being in favor means wanting World War III. It is a legitimate choice, as long as those who invoke the No Fly Zone recognize that they want a global war. As I have already said, I am a nonviolent pacifist, I am not in favor of any war. |
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
Posted: March 05 2022 at 13:13 |
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and thrive. It is old hat and, frankly, something that should have been discarded along with the 20th century, in which it thrived. It's sad that you and your socialist hereos still perpetuate this warped ideology in the 21st century. Edited by SteveG - March 05 2022 at 13:24 |
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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jamesbaldwin
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 25 2015 Location: Milano Status: Offline Points: 6052 |
Posted: March 05 2022 at 13:39 |
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THE GUARDIAN: Many predicted Nato expansion would lead to war. Those warnings were ignored Russia’s military offensive against Ukraine is an act of aggression that will make already worrisome tensions between Nato and Moscow even more dangerous. The west’s new cold war with Russia has turned hot. Vladimir Putin bears primary responsibility for this latest development, but Nato’s arrogant, tone‐deaf policy toward Russia over the past quarter‐century deserves a large share as well. Analysts committed to a US foreign policy of realism and restraint have warned for more than a quarter‐century that continuing to expand the most powerful military alliance in history toward another major power would not end well. The war in Ukraine provides definitive confirmation that it did not. Thinking through the Ukraine crisis – the causes “It would be extraordinarily difficult to expand Nato eastward without that action’s being viewed by Russia as unfriendly. Even the most modest schemes would bring the alliance to the borders of the old Soviet Union. Some of the more ambitious versions would have the alliance virtually surround the Russian Federation itself.” I wrote those words in 1994, in my book Beyond Nato: Staying Out of Europe’s Wars, at a time when expansion proposals merely constituted occasional speculation in foreign policy seminars in New York and Washington. I added that expansion “would constitute a needless provocation of Russia”. Why Vladimir Putin has already lost this war | Yuval Noah Harari What was not publicly known at the time was that Bill Clinton’s administration had already made the fateful decision the previous year to push for including some former Warsaw Pact countries in Nato. The administration would soon propose inviting Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary to become members, and the US Senate approved adding those countries to the North Atlantic Treaty in 1998. It would be the first of several waves of membership expansion. Even that first stage provoked Russian opposition and anger. In her memoir, Madeleine Albright, Clinton’s secretary of state, concedes that “[Russian president Boris] Yeltsin and his countrymen were strongly opposed to enlargement, seeing it as a strategy for exploiting their vulnerability and moving Europe’s dividing line to the east, leaving them isolated.” Strobe Talbott, deputy secretary of state, similarly described the Russian attitude. “Many Russians see Nato as a vestige of the cold war, inherently directed against their country. They point out that they have disbanded the Warsaw Pact, their military alliance, and ask why the west should not do the same.” It was an excellent question, and neither the Clinton administration nor its successors provided even a remotely convincing answer." Continue: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/28/nato-expansion-war-russia-ukraine Edited by jamesbaldwin - March 05 2022 at 14:01 |
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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jamesbaldwin
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 25 2015 Location: Milano Status: Offline Points: 6052 |
Posted: March 05 2022 at 14:13 |
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@suitkees You say that NATO is a defensive alliance, but NONE of its founding members have ever been attacked by Russia or any other country. On the contrary, many of these countries contain American military bases that have been used to launch the planes with which the US has bombed various states. So NATO has never been used to defend itself, while it has often been used by the US to wage wars of aggression, and all after 1989, after the fall of the USSR, i.e. after the feared enemy that would have represented a threat had fallen. . Clearly, you can consider NATO's expansion to the east a pretext for the invasion of Ukraine (and in part it is certainly a pretext, in the sense that it is not enough to justify a war). But I am trying to show you and other forumists that many independent analysts (see the post on the Guardian article), Europeans on the right and left, already felt several years ago that this expansion represented a clear (and understandable) threat and that therefore would have entailed the risk of a war, if it continued. @Steve As I have already said, Sergio Romano is not a Marxist, he is a politically right-wing man who lived in the US before becoming ambassador for Italy in NATO and then in Gorbachev's USSR. You may disagree with his analyzes, but his analyzes do not depend on his sympathies: he has always been anti-communist. @Lewian Relations between Reagan and Gorbachev became so friendly that Gorbachev, according to many witnesses, contented himself with a handshake from Reagan to believe that NATO would not expand east (Putin in the interview with Oliver Stone said he was "naive "). I'm not sure, however, that there was nothing written about it in subsequent years. In any case, there was peace between the US and Russia. And if you criticize Russia for believing in that deal, it's a bit like criticizing those who leave their bicycle without a lock instead of criticizing the thief who steals it. In other words, it seems to me objectively clear that the responsibility for breaking that peace lies with the American, that is, with those who broke the pact. In my opinion, the security of the former Warsaw Pact countries, especially if bordering Russia, would have been maximum if they had declared themselves neutral. And their independence would also have been maximum. Instead, passing from the Warsaw Pact to NATO, they have passed from one master to another, who hegemonizes them and uses them to wage his wars, which they tend to approve uncritically. I am writing OBJECTIVELY because it was also clear to the Americans that by expanding NATO to the East this would be perceived as an act of war, rather than peace, and moreover, the US would never accept that Mexico or Canada allied itself with Russia. The point is that if your enemy loses the war and his allies, as happened to Russia with the Cold War (it also lost economically), and instead of letting go and holding out your hand, you force him against the wall, surrounding him, isolating him, while he is still hurt and humiliated, you must expect that as soon as he can he will try to get out of his corner and return to take revenge and stand up to you by foaming with anger. Now, however, many years have passed, and Putin will probably lose this war because he does not have the tools to recreate the great Russia, and in so doing he will contribute to further damage and isolation of Russia, and all Europeans will be damaged because the Russia is part of Europe, because Europe will harm itself with the sanctions, and because NATO will come out even more strengthened, which means that Europe will continue to be subordinate to the US, instead of being an autonomous political entity. This is my opinion, unless Putin manages to find an agreement whereby he leaves Ukraine annexing only the areas to the southeast. On the civil war in Georgia, I confess that it is difficult to understand something, all those wars on the borders of Russia (Chechnya, Crimea, Georgia) are like the aftershocks of the earthquake resulting from the dissolution of Russia. Russia, of course, has tried to regain some lost territories by doing the usual war crimes, which I believe also committed by civil war fighters. Edited by jamesbaldwin - March 05 2022 at 14:45 |
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Woon Deadn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2010 Location: P Status: Offline Points: 1017 |
Posted: March 05 2022 at 14:17 |
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Muslim Chechnya is as legitimate a part of Russia as Alaska and Hawaii are intrinsic territories of the USA. Simply, Chechnya like any other Caucasus region is full of hot-tempered men. Alaska and Hawaii are much cooler... In both meanings of the word. I am not defending Russia(n Empire) here or anywhere else. But I am not going to call Hitler (or Stalin) a pedophile just because they were evil men. The same culture and the same language? Are you proposing to send all Spanish speakers away from the USA? What should they do to Quebec? First, there's a Russian invasion in Ukraine. Second, don't call Hitler a pedophile just because he was an evil man and pedophiles are evil men. Honesty and sincerety must prevail over anything else. Always. Even in the times of war. That's what I believe in.
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Favourite Band: Gentle Giant
Favourite Writer: Robert Sheckley Favourite Horror Writer: Jean Ray Favourite Computer Game: Tiny Toon - Buster's Hidden Treasure (Sega Mega Drive/Genesis) |
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Woon Deadn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2010 Location: P Status: Offline Points: 1017 |
Posted: March 05 2022 at 14:35 |
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The former Soviet citizens and probably even many people from the former Soviet... top management (so to say), did not tend to feel like they have lost in the Cold War back in 1991. But the USA definitely felt like that. After the dissolution of the USSR, there was a victorious USA and the loser - the former USSR. In the geopolitical game of tough guys once you've fallen dead, the winner can do to your corpse whatever he wants... Nobody cares about the feelings of your dead body anymore. The USSR is a forever corpse.
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Favourite Band: Gentle Giant
Favourite Writer: Robert Sheckley Favourite Horror Writer: Jean Ray Favourite Computer Game: Tiny Toon - Buster's Hidden Treasure (Sega Mega Drive/Genesis) |
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
Posted: March 05 2022 at 14:43 |
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For those who claim that the Soviet Union liberated Eastern and Central Europe and then immediately retreated their forces back to the USSR after Potsdam 1945, here is some sobering facts :
POLAND: The HUNGARY:
The presence of Soviet troops in Hungary was formalized by the 1949 mutual assistance treaty, which granted the Soviet Union rights to a continued
military presence AFTER THE “LIBERATION”, assuring ultimate political control.
The Soviet Forces in Hungary were part of the so-called Central Group of Forces headquartered in Baden near Vienna until
1955. (see below) AUSTRIA: The Soviet occupation of Austria lasted from 1945 to
1955.[45] At
the end of the war, Austria and Vienna were
divided into 4 zones of occupation, following the terms of the Potsdam Conference. On 15 May 1955, the Austrian State Treaty was signed,
officially establishing Austrian independence and sovereignty. The treaty was
enacted on 27 July, and the last Allied troops left the country on 25 October. GERMANY: Soviet occupation zone of Germany was the area of
eastern Germany occupied by the Soviet Union from 1945 on. In 1949 it became
The German Democratic Republic In 1955 the Republic was declared by the Soviet
Union to be fully sovereign; however, Soviet troops remained, based on the
four-power Potsdam agreement. CZECHOSLOVAKIA: Following the
capture of Prague by the Red Army in May 1945 the Soviets withdrew in December
1945 as part of an agreement that all Soviet and US troops leave the country. BULGARIA: Soviet troops were withdrawn in 1947 ROMANIA: The terms of the Armistice
Agreement ceased on 15 September 1947 as the conditions of the Paris Peace Treaties, 1947 entered
into force. The new treaty stipulated the withdrawal of all Allied forces from
Romania with an important exemption that such withdrawal was "subject to
the right of the Soviet Union to keep on Romanian territory such armed forces
as it may need for the maintenance of the lines of communication of the Soviet
Army with the Soviet zone of occupation in Austria." In the aftermath of
the agreement the Soviet presence fell from 130,000 troops (the peak in 1947)
to approximately 30,000. The troops were fully withdrawn by August 1958. |
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Russia/Ukraine tensions - Any concern?
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suitkees wrote: