jamesbaldwin wrote: @Easy Money @tszirmay @raff @ Steve 1) For what it's worth, I am a left-wing nonviolent pacifist, ecologist and post-Marxist. My political education is based on Marx, Gandhi, James Baldwin, MLKing, Mandela, Erich Fromm and the Frankfurt School, Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, liberation theologians, Israeli nonviolent pacifists like Jeff Halper etc. 2) For NATO crimes in the former Yugoslavia, I recommend Chosmky's books, which expose both American and European NATO propaganda. 3) For the question of genocide, I am sorry that here we want to talk nonsense about genocide, without knowing what it is. Genocide consists in wanting to destroy an  entire population. With the Shoah, up to 6 million Jews were killed: this is the reason why we talk about genocide. If 60,000 jews had been killed, there would be no question of genocide. It is not difficult to understand. The Native Americans, the Incas, the Aztecs, the Maya, the Indians have suffered genocide: between 50 and 70 million people have died. The Armenian genocide was about one and a half million or 2 million of people, if I remember well. The genocide in Rwanda is about 1 million people. So whoever accuses me of untruthfulness on this issue simply does not know what he is talking about. Unfortunately, for those who want to accuse me, I express myself quite precisely. If we talk about genocide in Ukraine by the Russians, as some are doing, I reply that to talk about genocide it takes millions of deaths, and the intention to destroy the Ukrainian people. These two factors dont exist: less than 500 civilians have died so far, so talking about genocide for a nation of 44 millions of people is RIDICULOUS. It is ridiculous that even Russia talks about genocide in connection with the crimes committed by the Ukrainian army and its neo-Nazi battalions, but this is war propaganda. In Italy we celebrate the Day of Remembrance where the Italians killed by Tito's partisans during and after the Second World War are remembered. It is about 5,000-10,000 people. Nobody says that the Tito regime has committed a genocide of the Italians. I hope I explained myself. 4) Yalta: I don't even understand what the issue is, I said that after the end of the Second World War, NATO and the Warsaw Pact were born. And in fact the war ended in 1945, NATO was born in 1949, and the Warsaw Pact was born in 1955, so even in that case, FIRST a Western military alliance was formed against Russia and AFTER did Russia form its military alliance to respond to NATO. 5) War crimes are of various kinds and have practically been done in every modern war because they involve killing civilians. There is talk of crimes against humanity for both the killing of tens of civilians and the killing of tens of thousands of civilians, so the difference can be huge. Russia has killed a few hundred civilians so far (and Ukrainian soldiers have also killed civilians). Now, if we stick to the killing of civilians, I remind everyone that the American and European wars in Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan have killed many but many more than Russia is doing now.  6) I am against any war, and just as I was against the war in the former Yugoslavia, the war in Iraq (since that of Bush senior in 1991), the war in Afghanistan, I am also against this war where this time it is Russia. which is imitating NATO. In fact, when they asked to Lavrov about the killing of Ukrainian civilians, he sarcastically replied that Russia has no civilian targets, but there are side effects, a term invented in the West to justify NATO wars (and Israeli crimes when bombing occupied territories). In other words, Russia is saying: you Westerners have done what you want so far, now we do too. Two wrong things do no justice. This is why I am against this war but I am also against any enlargement of NATO to the East. If, if I had to speak by slogans I would say No War in Ukraine No Nato Stop arms trafficking Sovereign and neutral Ukraine

@jamesbaldwin   

For all its worth, it was wholly unnecessary to extol your political/academic credentials it was obvious from the get-go, that contrary to teachers in my time in school who were decidedly non-partisan, you are quite politicized. No surprise there, you should add Rosenmuller (not only a devout millionaire Maoist but a fan of the Khmer Rouge) as one of your icons. I would have dropped all of this had it not been for your attempt at patronizing and condescending tone, as if I (or we) are your puerile students in your Milan classroom.

 I find it surprising that an erudite like you does not know or care to remember the basics of critical thinking (I learnt that at age 9 from my father): The W5:  WHEN and WHERE are the first and easiest determinations (like in a crime scene, par exemple) , as forensics mixed with logic and witnesses will rapidly set the stage. This is followed by the WHO, which may or may not be quite as simple and the WHAT which of course require more research. These are all fact based, scientific /geographic and logic based. The WHY is another matter, as time and research is needed to get it correctly. Historians (as opposed to bloggers and commentators) must identify the first 4 and then look at both sides of said argument, considering the various layers of ebb and flow, propaganda and lobbies etc… You started out your input with the following words: THIS IS MY OPINION, which of course, you are most entitled to do. But what you cannot expect to go unseen and unheard is the blatant DISREGARD of the first 4 Ws.

 In fact, I even obliged by stating that most of your “manifesto’ was correct except for your section 8, which was patently false. I doubt you bothered reading any kind of challenge to your remarks, but it started with RUSSIA being SURROUNDED by NATO, unfortunately the definition (you seem to have problems with definitions which is why you dismiss/or claim that you are accused) of SURROUND is a complete circle. I replied with a list of 14 countries bordering Russia as well as 2 maritime powers (Turkey and USA). Your response: SILENCE. Then you stated that “Putting American missiles in Ukraine” (clearly nuclear) which is wholly unnecessary in the world of ICBMs, land-based or sea-borne. Your response: SILENCE.

Even Chomsky would not deny dates and places: I repeat Srebenica July 1995, NATO intervention and bombing of Serbia, May 1999. Your response: SILENCE.

NATO was formed as a CONSEQUENCE of Soviet Army WW2 1945 occupation of central and Eastern Europe, including Vienna, Eastern Germany (later the DDR), Yugoslavia and all the other Iron Curtain club which LATER became the Warsaw Pact, as a consequence of NATO. In law, all law, everything is based on precedent (with dates). Timelines do not lie.

NOTE: NATO never intervened in any Western European country militarily. That was left to politicians and their cronies: diplomats. WARSAW Pact intervened militarily in Berlin 1953, Poland 1956, Hungary 1956, Prague 1968, -which caused hundreds of thousands of Italian and French Communists to burn their party cards in shame.

 You remember Rwanda poorly I am afraid: The Rwandan Genocide figures from the UN: between 491,000 to 800.000 Tutsis ,well below your minimum mark of “Millions” as you wrote or “1 Million” as you later corrected (surely reluctantly).  For someone claiming to be precise…..well…. As far as the Armenian genocide, your figures (though maybe vague in your mind) are spot on.   

The WORD Genocide was FIRST used by Putin on February 24, 2002, when discussing his ‘Special operation’ to denazify Ukraine (from a Jewish Ukrainian president, right…. of course, your icon Halper will claim that 90% Israelis are Fascists). I even bothered to supply a link.

 Knowing full well you are surely an atheist (nothing wrong with that BTW) , I cannot help to include that famous Biblical quote: To kill (or save) one human is to kill (or save) all of humanity. I know, vomitrocious! . But your rather callous comments like” Russia has killed a few hundred civilians so far”, and “If we stick to killing civilians “, and then claim you are a self-avowed PACIFIST, well life seems rather cheap for you, as with the genocide MILLION (s) minimum. All military historians such as yours truly, are unanimous in expecting massive resistance as opposed to genocide. There will be a lot of victims.  

That being said, as scattered and imprecise your manifesto follow up is (as well as you reluctance to respond to any challenge, which borders on cowardice, but hey, you are a peace-loving pacifist), you are 100% correct about the impotence of the EU, which failed miserably in Yugoslavia (I prefer my research to Chomsky’s only because I was on site when the crap hit the fan). Impotent in Kosovo as well, impotent in dealing with the migrant surge properly. And letting the Yanks do all the dirty work ,which was one of Trump’s rare correct assumptions.

Lastly, your knowledge of Russia, Imperial and Soviet as well as post-Soviet is target skewed. Yes, Napoleon attacked Russia, Imperial Germany attacked Russia, Japan and Russia had a naval fist fight. But the USSR?  

Finland did not invade the USSR in 1939, nor incorporated the Baltic states, with the amazing Molotov-Ribbentrop protocols that created the collapse of the said USSR. Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Georgia, Bulgaria, Romania and the ex-Yugoslavia have never attacked the USSR. The USSR entered the lands of  ‘Fraternal Socialist comrades” with tanks. Afghanistan? Syria? I had friends in Aleppo, Christians who showed me graphic pictures I care not to recall. 

Stating "well, look at what the Yanks did", yes....we know….We are talking Russia , the heading of this thread is Russia/Ukraine tensions. Nothing else.

Making the Russians the victims will be determined by the countless body bags returning to Russian mothers, they will cry once again. I cannot help noticing in your NO MORE list, there is no NO more PUTIN. I guess that says it all, your position is very clear, crystal clear.

You have spoken in slogans, too many factual falsehoods, omissions, distortions and of course, silence when facing facts. Maybe it is time for you to become a student again.

I won’t bother with this thread anymore as I feel still deeply offended by your overt and belittling arrogance towards me on more than 3 occasions. 

Please, No more, grazie. You are one stubborn zealot, congratulations  . 

Edited by tszirmay - March 04 2022 at 15:20

Easy Money wrote: Can anyone recommend what is the best charity organization to donate money for refugees?

tszirmay wrote: jamesbaldwin wrote: @Easy Money @tszirmay @raff @ Steve 1) For what it's worth, I am a left-wing nonviolent pacifist, ecologist and post-Marxist. My political education is based on Marx, Gandhi, James Baldwin, MLKing, Mandela, Erich Fromm and the Frankfurt School, Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, liberation theologians, Israeli nonviolent pacifists like Jeff Halper etc. 2) For NATO crimes in the former Yugoslavia, I recommend Chosmky's books, which expose both American and European NATO propaganda. 3) For the question of genocide, I am sorry that here we want to talk nonsense about genocide, without knowing what it is. Genocide consists in wanting to destroy an  entire population. With the Shoah, up to 6 million Jews were killed: this is the reason why we talk about genocide. If 60,000 jews had been killed, there would be no question of genocide. It is not difficult to understand. The Native Americans, the Incas, the Aztecs, the Maya, the Indians have suffered genocide: between 50 and 70 million people have died. The Armenian genocide was about one and a half million or 2 million of people, if I remember well. The genocide in Rwanda is about 1 million people. So whoever accuses me of untruthfulness on this issue simply does not know what he is talking about. Unfortunately, for those who want to accuse me, I express myself quite precisely. If we talk about genocide in Ukraine by the Russians, as some are doing, I reply that to talk about genocide it takes millions of deaths, and the intention to destroy the Ukrainian people. These two factors dont exist: less than 500 civilians have died so far, so talking about genocide for a nation of 44 millions of people is RIDICULOUS. It is ridiculous that even Russia talks about genocide in connection with the crimes committed by the Ukrainian army and its neo-Nazi battalions, but this is war propaganda. In Italy we celebrate the Day of Remembrance where the Italians killed by Tito's partisans during and after the Second World War are remembered. It is about 5,000-10,000 people. Nobody says that the Tito regime has committed a genocide of the Italians. I hope I explained myself. 4) Yalta: I don't even understand what the issue is, I said that after the end of the Second World War, NATO and the Warsaw Pact were born. And in fact the war ended in 1945, NATO was born in 1949, and the Warsaw Pact was born in 1955, so even in that case, FIRST a Western military alliance was formed against Russia and AFTER did Russia form its military alliance to respond to NATO. 5) War crimes are of various kinds and have practically been done in every modern war because they involve killing civilians. There is talk of crimes against humanity for both the killing of tens of civilians and the killing of tens of thousands of civilians, so the difference can be huge. Russia has killed a few hundred civilians so far (and Ukrainian soldiers have also killed civilians). Now, if we stick to the killing of civilians, I remind everyone that the American and European wars in Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan have killed many but many more than Russia is doing now.  6) I am against any war, and just as I was against the war in the former Yugoslavia, the war in Iraq (since that of Bush senior in 1991), the war in Afghanistan, I am also against this war where this time it is Russia. which is imitating NATO. In fact, when they asked to Lavrov about the killing of Ukrainian civilians, he sarcastically replied that Russia has no civilian targets, but there are side effects, a term invented in the West to justify NATO wars (and Israeli crimes when bombing occupied territories). In other words, Russia is saying: you Westerners have done what you want so far, now we do too. Two wrong things do no justice. This is why I am against this war but I am also against any enlargement of NATO to the East. If, if I had to speak by slogans I would say No War in Ukraine No Nato Stop arms trafficking Sovereign and neutral Ukraine @jamesbaldwin    For all its worth, it was wholly unnecessary to extol your political/academic credentials it was obvious from the get-go, that contrary to teachers in my time in school who were decidedly non-partisan, you are quite politicized. No surprise there, you should add Rosenmuller (not only a devout millionaire Maoist but a fan of the Khmer Rouge) as one of your icons. I would have dropped all of this had it not been for your attempt at patronizing and condescending tone, as if I (or we) are you puerile students in your Milan classroom.  I find it surprising that an erudite like you does not know or care to remember the basics of critical thinking (I learnt that at age 9 from my father): The W5:  WHEN and WHERE are the first and easiest determinations (like in a crime scene, par exemple) , as forensics mixed with logic and witnesses will rapidly set the stage. This is followed by the WHO, which may or may not be quite as simple and the WHAT which of course require more research. These are all fact based, scientific /geographic and logic based. The WHY is another matter, as time and research is needed to get it correctly. Historians (as opposed to bloggers and commentators) must identify the first 4 and then look at both sides of said argument, considering the various layers of ebb and flow, propaganda and lobbies etc… You started out your input with the following words: THIS IS MY OPINION, which of course, you are most entitled to do. But what you cannot expect to go unseen and unheard is the blatant DISREGARD or the first 4 Ws.  In fact, I even obliged by stating that most of your “manifesto’ was correct except for your section 8, which was patently false. I doubt you bothered reading any kind of challenge to your remarks, but it started with RUSSIA being SURROUNDED by NATO, unfortunately the definition (you seem to have problems with definitions which is why you dismiss/or claim that you are accused) of SURROUND is a complete circle. I replied with a list of 14 countries bordering Russia as well as 2 maritime powers (Turkey and USA). Your response: SILENCE. Then you stated that “Putting American missiles in Ukraine” (clearly nuclear) which i9s wholly unnecessary in the world of ICBMs, land-based or sea-borne. Your response: SILENCE. Even Chomsky would not deny dates and places: I repeat Srebenica July 1995, NATO intervention and bombing of Serbia, May 1999. Your response: SILENCE. NATO was formed as a CONSEQUENCE of Soviet Army WW2 1945 occupation of central and Eastern Europe, including Vienna, Eastern Germany (later the DDR), Yugoslavia and all the other Iron Curtain club which LATER became the Warsaw Pact, as a consequence of NATO. In law, all law, everything is based on precedent (with dates). Times do not lie. NOTE: NATO never intervened in any Western European country militarily. That was left to politicians and their cronies: diplomats. WARSAW Pact intervened militarily in Berlin 1953, Poland 1956, Hungary 1956, Prague (1968) -which caused hundreds of thousands of Italian and French Communists to burn their party cards in shame.  You remember Rwanda poorly I am afraid: The Rwandan Genocide figures from the UN: between 491,000 to 800.000 Tutsis (well below your minimum mark of “Millions” as you wrote or “1 Million” as you later corrected (surely reluctantly).  For someone claiming to be precise…..well…. As far as the Armenian genocide, your figures (though maybe vague in your mind) are spot on.    The WORD Genocide was FIRST used by Putin on February 24, 2002, when discussing his ‘Special operation’ to denazify Ukraine (from a Jewish Ukrainian president, right…. of course, your icon Halper will claim that 90% Israelis are Fascists). I even bothered to supply a link.  Knowing full well you are surely an atheist (nothing wrong with that BTW) , I cannot help to include that famous Biblical quote: To kill (or save) one human is to kill (or save) all of humanity. I know, vomitrocious! . But you rather callous comments like” Russia has killed a few hundred civilians so far”, and “If we stick to killing civilians “, and then claim you are a self-avowed PACIFIST, well life seems rather cheap for you, as with the genocide MILLION (s) minimum. All military historians such as yours truly, are unanimous in expecting massive resistance as opposed to genocide. There will be a lot of victims.    That being said, as scattered and imprecise your manifesto follow up is (as well as you reluctance to respond to any challenge, which borders on cowardice, but hey, you are a peace-loving pacifist, you are 100% correct about the impotence of the EU, which failed miserably in Yugoslavia (I prefer my research to Chomsky’s only because I was on site when the crap hit the fan). Impotent in Kosovo as well, impotent in dealing with the migrant surge properly. And letting the Yanks do all the dirty work (which was one of Trump’s rare correct assumptions). Lastly, your knowledge of Russia, Imperial and Soviet as well as post-Soviet is target skewed. Yes, Napoleon attacked Russia, Imperial Germany attacked Russia, Japan and Russia had a naval fist fight. But the USSR?   Finland did not invade the USSR in 1939, nor incorporated the Baltic states, with the amazing Molotov-Ribbentrop protocols that created the collapse of the said USSR. Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Georgia, Bulgaria, Romania and the ex-Yugoslavia have never attacked Russia. The USSR entered the ,  ‘Fraternal Socialist comrades” with tanks. Afghanistan? Syria? I had friends in Aleppo, Christians who showed me graphic pictures I care not to recall.  Stating "well, look at what the Yanks did", we know….We are Talking Russia , the heading of this thread is Russia/Ukraine tensions. Nothing else. Making the Russians the victims will be determined by the countless body bags returning to Russian mothers, they will cry once again. I cannot help noticing in your NO MORE list, there is no NO more PUTIN. I guess that says it all, your position is very clear, crystal clear. You have spoken in slogans, too many factual falsehoods, omissions, distortions and of course, silence when facing facts. Maybe it is time for you to become a student again. I won’t bother with this thread anymore as I feel still deeply offended by your overt and belittling arrogance towards me on more than 3 occasions.  Please, No more, grazie. You are one stubborn zealot, congratulations  .

https://atlantablackstar.com/2022/02/28/not-allowing-any-black-people-videos-show-africans-stranded-in-ukraine-blocked-from-getting-on-transportation-while-some-were-forced-to-walk-hours-to-the-border-in-the-cold/

Edited by omphaloskepsis - March 04 2022 at 15:17

omphaloskepsis wrote: https://atlantablackstar.com/2022/02/28/not-allowing-any-black-people-videos-show-africans-stranded-in-ukraine-blocked-from-getting-on-transportation-while-some-were-forced-to-walk-hours-to-the-border-in-the-cold/ Ukrainian officials not allowing any black people to flee Ukraine to Poland. Videos show Africans stranded in Ukraine, blocked from getting on buses and trains.  Some were forced to walk hours to the border in the cold. “To be honest, there was a lot of racism,” Mensah said. “Because the Ukrainians always came first, even though we Africans would be there for days and sometimes three days with no food. Everyone was just exhausted. Any time Ukrainians came, they told us to go back. They were shouting at us, ‘go back.’ It was really crazy.”

Edited by omphaloskepsis - March 04 2022 at 15:57

Raff wrote: As I said in an earlier post, I don't agree with much of what Lorenzo said. However, he didn't extol his academic credentials - he just listed some of the people/movements that influenced his thinking, as others have done before him. Thomas, I understand that any mention of Communism or left wing is a red flag (pun not really intended) to you, but I don't believe that ad hominem attacks are a good way to deal with this difficult situation. Regarding racism, I am sure there is a lot of it in Eastern Europe, just like there is a lot of it in Western Europe and in the US. If everyone who is a racist deserved to die, the US would find itself with half of its present population, and I would probably lose a few family members in Italy. In addition, as awful as racism against people who look different from us is, here we are talking about two people who speak closely related languages and have very similar ethnic roots that are killing each other - nothing new in Europe, unfortunately, though we hoped to have put all this behind us.

― Issac Asimov

Edited by tszirmay - March 04 2022 at 16:43

jamesbaldwin wrote: @Tszirmay When two people argue, the techniques to mislead understanding are: 1) Discredit the interlocutor or the author of the quote instead of going into the merits of the contents 2) Take a single word, extrapolated from the context, and embroider on it quoting the definition of the vocabulary, and then get to obscure its obvious meaning 3) confuse facts with opinions, project opinions on the interlocutor and based on these presumed opinions set up a speech 4) Denying what the interlocutor is doing, as for example you do by saying that I am in SILENCE when in reality I have answered you about everything, and even several times You have implemented these techniques all. - I mentioned an Italian diplomat, Sergio Romano, and you said he was a politician with his own agenda to respect. - I explained to you that when you talk about genocide to describe the invasion of Ukraine you make a mistake, a misuse of that word, because to carry out a genocide of a people of 44 million you would have to kill several million people, and you are still here to count the dead in Rwanda to say that perhaps they reach 800,000 and not a million. Don't you want to understand that to be a genocide it takes millions of deaths? A people exterminated to the point of putting their existence in danger? OK as you like. In fact, if a population is very small, it does not take millions of deaths to exterminate them: to genocide the Eskimos it is enough to kill most of the Eskimos: we will not get close to a million, I suppose. -I explained to you that analysts have been worried about NATO's eastward expansion for years, particularly since one of Russia's two "buffer states", Ukraine, became anti-Russian, and that it is a humiliation for Russia to have almost all Warsaw Pact states joined NATO, which could mean missiles aimed at Moscow from the border. And you stick to the word "surround" to describe the Asian borders of Russia etc. Don't you want to understand that the heart of Russia is inside Europe and that having all the states from Poland (North) to Romania and Ukraine (South) inside NATO means being surrounded and humiliated? Ok, as you like. -For the rest, I have nothing to say about Srebrenica because I stated that I was against the NATO war in Kosovo, which happened before the real massacres in Kosovo took place, and not after, as Western propaganda says, and this Chosmsky says this in the book "Hegemony or Survival", 2003. This does not mean that in the previous years there were no massacres in the former Yugoslavia. One last thing. Russia did not militarily occupy Eastern Europe: it liberated it from the Nazis. They are two very different concepts. Roberto Benigni in "La vita è bella" has freed his concentration camp from the Americans. It was a nice trick to win the Oscar, wasnt it? Auschwitz was liberated by the Russians. And the Russians did not remain to occupy the Eastern European states after the war. And by the way, Tito's Yugoslavia was never liberated nor occupied by Stalin's Russia. In short, NATO was not born in response to the Russian occupation of Eastern Europe, because there was no Russian occupation (except in East Berlin and East Germany). Regarding the Warsaw Pact, the most prestigious Italian encyclopedia, Treccani, writes: "Inspired by the desire of the USSR to strengthen its control over the satellite countries, already operating through a series of bilateral alliance agreements, and to rearm the Democratic Republic German, represented a political response to the rearmament of the Federal Republic of Germany, allowed by its inclusion in the WEU and NATO (Paris and London Agreements of 1954). " It is true, however, that the states of Eastern Europe were more subservient to the USSR than the states of Western Europe were subservient to the USA. The rule of the USSR was more direct and included the invasion of Hungary and Czechoslovakia. (I have never been a supporter of Russia and Soviet communism, and I consider Rosa Luxemburg and Yulia Martov to be the best representatives of democratic communism.) But in Italy, the US directly controlled government policy by preventing the Communist Party from coming to power in various ways (this is a topic that deserves a long discussion) and it is for this reason that Italy had the greatest phenomenon of terrorism in Europe, with the red terrorists on one side and with the black terrorists to act as laborers of the secret services diverted by pro-Atlantic organizations on the other side. For the rest, I am not an atheist, and I answered on my beliefs because my family, half Catholic and half socialist, was persecuted by the Nazi-Fascists, my small town near Milan was occupied by the Nazi-Fascists, the men sent to Germany in forced labor, my grandparents were hiding, an uncle of mine ended up dead in Russia with the army that Mussolini sent to die of cold in order to support Hitler. But all of this has little to do with the current war. Now the problem is: which is the best way to prevent the Third World War?

The first rules learned in law school: 

1- Argue, argue, argue.

2-Deflect x3

3-Deny x3 

And if that does to work :4- pretend you never heard it and go back to 1 

Edited by tszirmay - March 04 2022 at 16:49

jamesbaldwin wrote: tszirmay wrote: With all the massive respect I have for you, he started his first post with THIS IS MY OPINION, then every other comment he added began with @easymoney, @raff, @steve, @tszirmay etc...as if he was lecturing his students, when in fact, it is a clear PROVOCATION.  Also objecting to his endless use of "I" , which is clear sign of being haughty and having a strong sense of moral superiority. (I replaced his "I" with my "he" here, in order to elevate him even higher).  He has the gall to quote Talleyrand as an icon (happens to be mine)! If Talleyrand would read our exchange , he would have Robespierre revived and become Lorenzo's scissors sharpener.  There is no reason for you to be offended by my comments, my skin is tough, and while strident , I did not insult him arbitrarily. At my age, I will not be patronized by him or anyone else. If he is offended, well , action/reaction, I am sure he is a big boy and can take the heat! Nevertheless his omission of "NO more Putin" in his grand finale was the clincher.... shameful .... Oh my God,  - I quote more forumists in my answer to write once and for all - I write "I" to emphasize that it is my opinion or my experience - Talleyrand? I never mentioned Talleyrand - Omission of "No more Putin"? What does this mean? I do not understand. But Ok, no problem.

^ Obviously, you think that Putin is a moral rational person who can be bargained with. He is not. He is a ruthless murderous thug who wants to kill as many Ukranian citizens as he possibly can. There is also a strategic reason for his madness that I'm sure you don't understand. Killing a large percentage of Ukrainians insures that there will be less patriots to fight against and mount insurgencies in the future, as well as crushing the spirit of those left alive.

Now, if you would like me to dispel your Biden lies, fallacies and right wing media misinformation, please post your BS in the American politics thread and leave this one available for those who can actually think.

Edited by SteveG - March 05 2022 at 12:00