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Topic ClosedRussia/Ukraine tensions - Any concern?

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Archisorcerus View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2022 at 07:45
^ Or better, "Talent hits a target no one else can hit, genius hits a target no one else can see."

Hey, most of the geniuses are also lunatics. WinkLOL

Edited by Archisorcerus - March 04 2022 at 07:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2022 at 07:45
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^ Good God, Stone is a lunatic and I will not waste my time reading anything he posts. You're entitled to your opinion and arguments, but please quote someone who is sane.
True, Oliver Stone is an idiot. The putin apologists are getting desperate. More will die because of this man, in Eastern Europe and Russia as well. Two days ago there were three people on this site I wouldn't waste my time talking to. Now there are four.

Edited by Easy Money - March 04 2022 at 07:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2022 at 08:13
^ I hope I'm not among that four. I'm an anarchist. I can never support a politician. Please explain those four. If I'm among them, I advise you to check my posts, such as:

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=127967&PID=5983654#5983654

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=127967&PID=5984173#5984173

They are still valid, and will ever be so.

If I'm not in the "fantastic four", you can disregard this post.




Edited by Archisorcerus - March 04 2022 at 08:18
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2022 at 08:15
A message from Gary, a Ukrainian seeking support for their cause:


Army of Ukraine need your support!
Please help us defend our freedom and independence!
The National Bank of Ukraine has decided to open a special fundraising account to support the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
Here is original source: https://bank.gov.ua/en/news/all/natsionalniy-bank-vidkriv-spetsrahunok-dlya-zboru-koshtiv-na-potrebi-armiyi
PLEASE, DO NOT IGNORE THIS MESSAGE !
The attack on Ukraine brings a lot of trouble and death in our family!
Fundraising to provide targeted assistance to those in need, regardless of their gender, age, citizenship.
Many people need food and clothes, someone is sleeping on the street!
Remember, every penny and every minute can save a life!
Maximum repost please everyone, do not remain indifferent!!

Bitcoin:
bc1qfwe0sanett2l27gg7nt7fje82e7ewl70qzulsz

Thank you for everyone !

Edited by Easy Money - March 04 2022 at 08:16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2022 at 08:18
Originally posted by Archisorcerus Archisorcerus wrote:

^ I hope I'm not among that four. I'm an anarchist. I can never support a politician. Please explain those four. (If I'm among them, I advise you to check my posts, such as:

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=127967&PID=5983654#5983654

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=127967&PID=5984173#5984173

They are still valid, and will ever be so.

If I'm not in the "fantastic four", you can disregard this post.



No way, you are a straight up homie.    

Edited by Easy Money - March 04 2022 at 14:57
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2022 at 08:19
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2022 at 08:19
Originally posted by Archisorcerus Archisorcerus wrote:

^ I hope I'm not among that four. I'm an anarchist. I can never support a politician. Please explain those four. If I'm among them, I advise you to check my posts, such as:

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=127967&PID=5983654#5983654

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=127967&PID=5984173#5984173

They are still valid, and will ever be so.

If I'm not in the "fantastic four", you can disregard this post.



LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2022 at 09:02
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

@Easy Money
@tszirmay
@raff
@ Steve

1) For what it's worth, I am a left-wing nonviolent pacifist, ecologist and post-Marxist. My political education is based on Marx, Gandhi, James Baldwin, MLKing, Mandela, Erich Fromm and the Frankfurt School, Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, liberation theologians, Israeli nonviolent pacifists like Jeff Halper etc.

2) For NATO crimes in the former Yugoslavia, I recommend Chosmky's books, which expose both American and European NATO propaganda.

3) For the question of genocide, I am sorry that here we want to talk nonsense about genocide, without knowing what it is.

Genocide consists in wanting to destroy an  entire population. With the Shoah, up to 6 million Jews were killed: this is the reason why we talk about genocide. If 60,000 jews had been killed, there would be no question of genocide. It is not difficult to understand.
The Native Americans, the Incas, the Aztecs, the Maya, the Indians have suffered genocide: between 50 and 70 million people have died.

The Armenian genocide was about one and a half million or 2 million of people, if I remember well.

The genocide in Rwanda is about 1 million people.

So whoever accuses me of untruthfulness on this issue simply does not know what he is talking about. Unfortunately, for those who want to accuse me, I express myself quite precisely.

If we talk about genocide in Ukraine by the Russians, as some are doing, I reply that to talk about genocide it takes millions of deaths, and the intention to destroy the Ukrainian people.
These two factors dont exist: less than 500 civilians have died so far, so talking about genocide for a nation of 44 millions of people is RIDICULOUS.

It is ridiculous that even Russia talks about genocide in connection with the crimes committed by the Ukrainian army and its neo-Nazi battalions, but this is war propaganda.

In Italy we celebrate the Day of Remembrance where the Italians killed by Tito's partisans during and after the Second World War are remembered. It is about 5,000-10,000 people. Nobody says that the Tito regime has committed a genocide of the Italians.

I hope I explained myself.

4) Yalta: I don't even understand what the issue is, I said that after the end of the Second World War, NATO and the Warsaw Pact were born. And in fact the war ended in 1945, NATO was born in 1949, and the Warsaw Pact was born in 1955, so even in that case, FIRST a Western military alliance was formed against Russia and AFTER did Russia form its military alliance to respond to NATO.

5) War crimes are of various kinds and have practically been done in every modern war because they involve killing civilians. There is talk of crimes against humanity for both the killing of tens of civilians and the killing of tens of thousands of civilians, so the difference can be huge. Russia has killed a few hundred civilians so far (and Ukrainian soldiers have also killed civilians).

Now, if we stick to the killing of civilians, I remind everyone that the American and European wars in Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan have killed many but many more than Russia is doing now. 

6) I am against any war, and just as I was against the war in the former Yugoslavia, the war in Iraq (since that of Bush senior in 1991), the war in Afghanistan, I am also against this war where this time it is Russia. which is imitating NATO. In fact, when they asked to Lavrov about the killing of Ukrainian civilians, he sarcastically replied that Russia has no civilian targets, but there are side effects, a term invented in the West to justify NATO wars (and Israeli crimes when bombing occupied territories).
In other words, Russia is saying: you Westerners have done what you want so far, now we do too.
Two wrong things do no justice.

This is why I am against this war but I am also against any enlargement of NATO to the East. If,
if I had to speak by slogans I would say
No War in Ukraine
No Nato
Stop arms trafficking
Sovereign and neutral Ukraine


Outstanding research and analysis, Mr. James Baldwin. Ever since I was a six, I've been anti-war.  

When the USSR broke apart, they did so on the condition that NATO would NOT expand East. The United States, France, Germany agreed.  On February 9, 1990,  American Secretary of State- James Baker promised the USSR that NATO would not expand eastward. James Baker, famously promised,

"Not one inch eastward"

NATO expansion eastward since 1990, “Who promised what to whom on NATO expansion?” according to declassified US, Soviet, German, British and French documents.

History and documents

Did the United States really promise the Soviet Union during the 1990 negotiations on German reunification that NATO would not expand into Eastern Europe? Since the end of the Cold War, an array of Soviet/Russian policymakers have charged that NATO expansion violates a US pledge advanced in 1990 but some Western scholars and political leaders dispute that the United States made any such commitment.

US Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a series of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials (including Boris Yeltsin) throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991.

These documents show that multiple national leaders were considering and rejecting Central and Eastern European membership in NATO as of early 1990 and through 1991. The discussions of NATO in the context of German unification negotiations in 1990 were not at all narrowly limited to the status of East German territory and that subsequent Soviet and Russian complaints about being misled about NATO expansion were founded in written contemporaneous memos and telegrams at the highest levels. 

The documents reinforce former CIA Director Robert Gates’s criticism of “pressing ahead with expansion of NATO eastward in the 1990s, when Gorbachev and others were led to believe that wouldn’t happen.” The key phrase, buttressed by the documents, is “led to believe.”


https://greatpowerrelations.com/not-one-inch-eastward/#:~:text=US%20Secretary%20of%20State%20James%20Baker%E2%80%99s%20famous%20%E2%80%9Cnot,German%20unification%20in%201990%20and%20on%20into%201991.



Edited by omphaloskepsis - March 04 2022 at 09:05
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2022 at 09:08
A lot of people on this thread are trying to make sense of the actions of a madman. 

Madmen don't make sense. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2022 at 09:15
^ But what makes a man mad, and more importantly, why the publics choose such persons to lead them? This type of discussions and debates can be fruitful.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2022 at 09:19
"Power".

No one in the history of Russia has ever chosen who leads them. ;-)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2022 at 09:20
My take on this: tribal warfare still exists! 

And Putin is a bloody tyrant no doubt, but it's a bad thing to accuse other Progarchives members of being Putin apologists IMO. I don't see anyone actually praising him on this forum. Please do not get into a heated argument and trading accusations over this nonsense. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2022 at 09:21
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

"Power".

No one in the history of Russia has ever chosen who leads them. ;-)

This can be true of any country around the world. The common people never have the power.


Edited by King of Loss - March 04 2022 at 09:21
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2022 at 09:26
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

"Power".

No one in the history of Russia has ever chosen who leads them. ;-)

Oh, you seem too confident in your "end of discussion" toned take, before it even begins. Lots of other countries "picked" maniacs as their leaders. Should I give any example?

Edited by Archisorcerus - March 04 2022 at 09:27
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2022 at 09:54
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

A lot of people on this thread are trying to make sense of the actions of a madman. 

Madmen don't make sense. 
Very true.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2022 at 10:06

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

A lot of people on this thread are trying to make sense of the actions of a madman. 

Madmen don't make sense. 
Tell me about! LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2022 at 10:07
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

A lot of people on this thread are trying to make sense of the actions of a madman. 

Madmen don't make sense. 
Very true.

Absolutely. It is a very true and knowing comment. It is utterly pointless trying to rationalise the completely irrational. A truism which keeps rearing its ugly head in the course of human history, I am afraid.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2022 at 10:22
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

A lot of people on this thread are trying to make sense of the actions of a madman. 

Madmen don't make sense. 
Very true.

Absolutely. It is a very true and knowing comment. It is utterly pointless trying to rationalise the completely irrational. A truism which keeps rearing its ugly head in the course of human history, I am afraid.

umm hmmm

'Madness is rare in individuals ...  but in groups, parties, nations and ages it is the rule' 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2022 at 10:38
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

A lot of people on this thread are trying to make sense of the actions of a madman. 

Madmen don't make sense. 
Very true.

Absolutely. It is a very true and knowing comment. It is utterly pointless trying to rationalise the completely irrational. A truism which keeps rearing its ugly head in the course of human history, I am afraid.

umm hmmm

'Madness is rare in individuals ...  but in groups, parties, nations and ages it is the rule' 

ClapClap This is so true.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2022 at 11:51
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

A lot of people on this thread are trying to make sense of the actions of a madman. 

Madmen don't make sense. 
Tell me about! LOL

How many Wars did Trump start? I lost count.
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