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tszirmay View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2022 at 17:57
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

@tszirmay

After the Second World War, in the West (USA) there was NATO, in the East (USSR) the Warsaw Pact.

Now there is no longer the USSR, and there is no longer the Warsaw Pact. Indeed, Warsaw is the capital of a state that joined NATO like all of Eastern Europe, from north to south, which is why I say that Russia is surrounded: what matters is European Russia.

Europe has only a monetary and economic union, and having incorporated the states of the East, which have very little to do with the states of the West, it will NEVER have its own internal and international policy.
In short, the European Union has gone bankrupt, it only works for banks and the free market.

In the former Yugoslavia, I repeat to you, the major crimes of ethnic cleansing took place after NATO entered the war. In that years, I was going to demonstrate against Italy's entry into the war.

As for Ukraine, it is since the 2014 coup that I fear we would have entered the war, especially after the repression of Russian areas by the Ukrainian military.

Understanding Russia's reasons does not mean justifying the invasion, but understanding what the solution could be. And I think Sergio Romano is right about this: the solution is NOT to let Ukraine join NATO and not even the EU.

I mentioned Sergio Romano because he is the exact opposite of a politician. He was an ambassador, he has been involved in diplomacy for 70 years, and he knows the US (he married an American woman) and Russia very well. He is a historian, he has no agenda to respect. And above all he has never had any sympathies for Russia (he is a conservative, he is righ-wing in short). Precisely for this reason I mentioned it. But I could mention other Italian left-wing intellectuals or historians who think like him. Of course this does not mean that he is right, what he says is not written in the Bible or the Koran.

Simply, I believe that if wars are to be avoided, NATO should be dissolved, the American military bases in Europe should be evacuated, Europe should find a political union, even dividing itself between West and East, while remaining economically united, the United Nations have failed and should be abolished and reformed all over again: all wars start from the 5 nations who sit on the security council. In short, we are in another historical, new era, which no longer has anything to do with the balances that arose in Yalta.


I wrote 20 policy papers on Yugoslavia for a think tank in the 1990s , I know a bit about it, druze! 
Srebenica - July 11-22 1995 vs NATO bombing May 24 1999
Please, I beg you, check your facts ! Yalta = 1945.  Nato= 1949 Your credibility is disappearing quickly by a lack of rigour and fact-checking, like dates and places. 

Alora ! BTW, a diplomat is appointed by the government in power, hence a representative of the POLITICAL stance in said country. 


Edited by tszirmay - March 03 2022 at 18:05
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2022 at 18:04
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Astounding footage from UATV assuming it's genuine and these soldiers are not being coerced [which they certainly could be], this is not at all the Russian army I remember from the post-Soviet '90s --
Governments always sucker the young and the naive. It happened to my stepson too. He has permanent war injuries.

True but these thin, meager young guys are completely unrecognizable as the Russian soldiers I remember seeing footage of training in the 1990s--  those guys were huge, fierce war-machines I wouldn't want to cross.   Seriously, Putin's generals must've sent in their worst soldiers first.   Incredible.




Edited by Atavachron - March 03 2022 at 18:05
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2022 at 18:14
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

For those struggling with English definitions, this might help. I do not see the word 'millions'. Do you?

gen·o·cide
/ˈjenəˌsīd/
Learn to pronounce
noun
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group
"a campaign of genocide"

Until two days ago, the deaths caused by the Russian invasion were 406 (source: United Nations)

Ukraine has 44 million inhabitants.

Please don't talk about genocide, otherwise we should call every killing genocide.


Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2022 at 18:24
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

For those struggling with English definitions, this might help. I do not see the word 'millions'. Do you?

gen·o·cide
/ˈjenəˌsīd/
Learn to pronounce
noun
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group
"a campaign of genocide"

Until two days ago, the deaths caused by the Russian invasion were 406 (source: United Nations)

Ukraine has 44 million inhabitants.

Please don't talk about genocide, otherwise we should call every killing genocide.


Your quote: "To talk about genocide there must be millions of dead: we are a long way from genocide, until now" Easy Money was commenting on the first part , not the second Confused Genocide is not a minimum of "millions" Ouch

Edited by tszirmay - March 03 2022 at 18:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2022 at 18:37
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

For those struggling with English definitions, this might help. I do not see the word 'millions'. Do you?

gen·o·cide
/ˈjenəˌsīd/
Learn to pronounce
noun
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group
"a campaign of genocide"


Until two days ago, the deaths caused by the Russian invasion were 406 (source: United Nations)

Ukraine has 44 million inhabitants.

Please don't talk about genocide, otherwise we should call every killing genocide.


Well if you are disappointed in the numbers, don't worry it will be climbing soon by tomorrow. I wonder which way that nuclear wind is going to blow, how far away is Italy?

Edited by Easy Money - March 03 2022 at 18:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2022 at 18:40
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Astounding footage from UATV assuming it's genuine and these soldiers are not being coerced [which they certainly could be], this is not at all the Russian army I remember from the post-Soviet '90s --
Governments always sucker the young and the naive. It happened to my stepson too. He has permanent war injuries.

True but these thin, meager young guys are completely unrecognizable as the Russian soldiers I remember seeing footage of training in the 1990s--  those guys were huge, fierce war-machines I wouldn't want to cross.   Seriously, Putin's generals must've sent in their worst soldiers first.   Incredible.



well David...not surprising at all actually.  The Russian army though large has a large portion (roughly 1 in 4) of it consisting of ill trained short term conscripts and most damningly.. as any military person knows.. the backbone of any effective army is its NCO's.  The Russian army has next to no tradition of a professional NCO class. It has worked on implementing a professional NCO system probably in reaction to that incident in 2019 where a Russian conscript shot and killed 8 of his fellow soldiers .. describing his life in the Russian army as.... hell 

but according to the latest reports are still far from achieving that goal of a a professional army.

not surprising the in least they are as unmotivated and ineffective as they appear in the present invasion.  True to form with the Russian military.. they never progressed past early 20th century tactics that involve sending conscript canon fodder in to die until they overwhelm an adversary. I am curious with the special knowledge Russians have in the dangers of urban fighting.. just how far they go in pulverizing Ukraine's cities thus making them even more dangerous to attack and harder to eliminate opposing forces than they were already. Then again from what we have seen already.. hard to attribute any strategic or tactical good sense on the Russians in this war. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2022 at 18:48
^ Always good to hear from someone who keeps track of these things--  and of course all armies have skinny young kids who they throw into the meat-grinder.   But I am surprised, though I probably shouldn't be.   Frankly it's the Ukrainians that are looking like the serious, well-fed, tough-as-nails group of people I'd expect to see in a Slavic military.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2022 at 18:57
I actually drove through a huge Russian military operation in East Germany in 1983. I guess they put it around the highway to spook the visitors and inspire the locals. The guys looked pretty tough to me. Lots of dark Middle Eastern/Mongolian types, they didn't look like the guys in the video,
... and yes, I do appreciate Michael's knowledge on this stuff.

Edited by Easy Money - March 03 2022 at 18:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2022 at 19:08
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

For those struggling with English definitions, this might help. I do not see the word 'millions'. Do you?

gen·o·cide
/ˈjenəˌsīd/
Learn to pronounce
noun
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group
"a campaign of genocide"

Until two days ago, the deaths caused by the Russian invasion were 406 (source: United Nations)

Ukraine has 44 million inhabitants.

Please don't talk about genocide, otherwise we should call every killing genocide.


Your quote: "To talk about genocide there must be millions of dead: we are a long way from genocide, until now" Easy Money was commenting on the first part , not the second Confused Genocide is not a minimum of "millions" Ouch

You will never find, in history, the word genocide associated with hundreds or thousands of people killed, you have to get at least close to hundreds of thousands, or, precisely, one million (or more): genocide means getting close to annihilating, making a people disappear from the earth or from his land. Russia is not deliberately trying to exterminate the 44 million Ukrainians (or to make them flee their land), so there is no sense in talking about genocide, Russia's aim is to annex all of Ukraine or part of Ukraine.


Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2022 at 19:10
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

I actually drove through a huge Russian military operation in East Germany in 1983. I guess they put it around the highway to spook the visitors and inspire the locals. The guys looked pretty tough to me. Lots of dark Middle Eastern/Mongolian types, they didn't look like the guys in the video,
... and yes, I do appreciate Michael's knowledge on this stuff.
 Those are the guys I remember.   It's bad optics for Russia, and a treasure trove of intelligence about their capabilities.   I'm rather stunned.  We may be witnessing the fall of Russia as a serious military power.



"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2022 at 19:19
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Astounding footage from UATV assuming it's genuine and these soldiers are not being coerced [which they certainly could be], this is not at all the Russian army I remember from the post-Soviet '90s --
Governments always sucker the young and the naive. It happened to my stepson too. He has permanent war injuries.

True but these thin, meager young guys are completely unrecognizable as the Russian soldiers I remember seeing footage of training in the 1990s--  those guys were huge, fierce war-machines I wouldn't want to cross.   Seriously, Putin's generals must've sent in their worst soldiers first.   Incredible.



well David...not surprising at all actually.  The Russian army though large has a large portion (roughly 1 in 4) of it consisting of ill trained short term conscripts and most damningly.. as any military person knows.. the backbone of any effective army is its NCO's.  The Russian army has next to no tradition of a professional NCO class. It has worked on implementing a professional NCO system probably in reaction to that incident in 2019 where a Russian conscript shot and killed 8 of his fellow soldiers .. describing his life in the Russian army as.... hell 

but according to the latest reports are still far from achieving that goal of a a professional army.

not surprising the in least they are as unmotivated and ineffective as they appear in the present invasion.  True to form with the Russian military.. they never progressed past early 20th century tactics that involve sending conscript canon fodder in to die until they overwhelm an adversary. I am curious with the special knowledge Russians have in the dangers of urban fighting.. just how far they go in pulverizing Ukraine's cities thus making them even more dangerous to attack and harder to eliminate opposing forces than they were already. Then again from what we have seen already.. hard to attribute any strategic or tactical good sense on the Russians in this war. 

Interesting that the ideal weapon in urban fighting is still the Molotov cocktail (Lviv smoothie) , going hand in hand with your correct statement about the antiquated tactics and especially the lingering reality that Russian officers are not trained to have multi-disciplinary training because of distrust of their political intentions (Stalin's purges left a long scar) . This was evident everywhere, whether in 1956 Budapest, in 1967 Sinai, in Kabul or Grozny , shoot the tank driver and the remaining crew had no training in driving said tank. Toss a Molotov from a rubbled rooftop, or the crew stay inside and fry or they exit and get riddled with bullets . "Motis" tactics used by the Finns just before WW2 caused 10 to 1 ratios of KIA (still a record I believe for an invaded force). The Ukrainians probably know this full well and will resort to urban guerrilla tactics , hit + run + disappear and bleed the Russians slowly , one by one. I know, it will be savage. Cry


Edited by tszirmay - March 03 2022 at 19:20
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2022 at 19:26
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

For those struggling with English definitions, this might help. I do not see the word 'millions'. Do you?

gen·o·cide
/ˈjenəˌsīd/
Learn to pronounce
noun
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group
"a campaign of genocide"

Until two days ago, the deaths caused by the Russian invasion were 406 (source: United Nations)

Ukraine has 44 million inhabitants.

Please don't talk about genocide, otherwise we should call every killing genocide.


Your quote: "To talk about genocide there must be millions of dead: we are a long way from genocide, until now" Easy Money was commenting on the first part , not the second Confused Genocide is not a minimum of "millions" Ouch

You will never find, in history, the word genocide associated with hundreds or thousands of people killed, you have to get at least close to hundreds of thousands, or, precisely, one million (or more): genocide means getting close to annihilating, making a people disappear from the earth or from his land. Russia is not deliberately trying to exterminate the 44 million Ukrainians (or to make them flee their land), so there is no sense in talking about genocide, Russia's aim is to annex all of Ukraine or part of Ukraine.


You did not write million, you wrote millions (with an s). You never, ever admit being incorrect, do you? Did you bother checking the Yalta vs Nato dates? Did you look up (or were too lazy) to lookup Srebenica vs Nato bombing dates? Of course not! Guess what, you can have opinions all the way to Uranus and back , but facts , like dates and places, you cannot ALTER to fit your opinions. You are either a lawyer wannabe or a testa dura stancante . I am a bit harsh because you keep insisting on being right and never admit that you are distorting PROVEN facts to meet your agenda. Which is why your credibility has gone out the window. As far as Europe is concerned, as well as much of what you state being correct, only serves to further confuse and dilute your said "opinions" . Its too bad, you started out real smart..... but trying to educate us with the use of an imperative tone , as if some know-it-all messiah, when riddled with so MANY factual errors is disturbing. Please read back your monologues! If you feel so strongly about NATO, start a political party, convert the masses with your Piazza Venezia-like rhetoric and presto....no more NATO, by election and vox populi. In the meantime, the words of Juan Carlos directed at Chavez are quite opportune: "Por favor, calla te" . 


Edited by tszirmay - March 03 2022 at 19:55
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2022 at 19:44
Where are your priorities james. Do you really want to argue about how many people die to create a genocide. Is this what your evening (or very early morning) amounts to.
Meanwhile putin just blew up a nuclear plant. Okay, what exact number do you think counts as a genocide? We will use your figures from now on.

By the way, you tend to say Russian, while I say putin. I do not blame the Russian people for this ongoing attempted genocide, only putin, and those that back him or make excuses for him.

Edited by Easy Money - March 03 2022 at 19:54
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2022 at 19:56
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Okay, what exact number do you think counts as a genocide? We will use your figures from now on.

I'm not sure whether you are being facetious (i.e. flippant about a serious subject) and I may well be demonstrating my naivete by even involving myself in this discussion, however I don't think whether something can be classified as genocide has anything to do with numbers.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2022 at 19:57
^ You are right, apparently jamesbaldwin thinks that numbers do matter. I'm just asking him what number does he think gets us there, and no, I'm not being flippant. What is going on right now in the world is a deadly serious matter.

Edited by Easy Money - March 03 2022 at 20:10
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2022 at 20:19
^ Please don't misunderstand me. I have no doubt that you regard the current situation in Europe as a very serious matter. 

I was just seeking clarification with regard to your request for classifying what can be considered genocide.

I'll just scurry back to the shadows now. Embarrassed 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2022 at 20:21
^ You are a good guy Gary, no offense taken at all.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2022 at 20:23
Can you believe Dennis Miller used to work for these a****les. I never liked Dennis Miller anyway:

Sharon Knolle
Thu, March 3, 2022, 3:08 PM
"The production company behind RT America, the pro-Putin American version of Russia’s RT network, ceased production and laid off most of its staff on Thursday.

According to an employee memo obtained by CNN, general manager T&R Productions, informed staff that “unforeseen business interruption events” were forcing the company to cease production immediately.

Misha Solodovnikov, the general manager of T&R Production, told employees that this is likely the end of RT America. “Unfortunately, we anticipate this layoff will be permanent, meaning that this will result in the permanent separation from employment of most T&R employees at all locations,” he wrote.

Earlier this week, DirecTV, one of the only two providers carrying the network in the U.S., announced it was dropping the channel and former “SNL” star Dennis Miller quit the morning show he hosted on the network, “Dennis Miller + One.”

Edited by Easy Money - March 03 2022 at 20:24
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2022 at 20:36
I think what people aren't grasping here is that putin has %100 flipped out. This is not normal politics. If him bombing a nuclear plant doesn't convince you, then I am at a loss for words.
I feel sorry for the Russian people because ultimately they are the ones who will pay the price for the destruction to come.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2022 at 20:45
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Can you believe Dennis Miller used to work for these a****les. I never liked Dennis Miller anyway:  Sharon Knolle
Thu, March 3, 2022, 3:08 PM
"The production company behind RT America, the pro-Putin American version of Russia’s RT network, ceased production and laid off most of its staff on Thursday.

According to an employee memo obtained by CNN, general manager T&R Productions, informed staff that “unforeseen business interruption events” were forcing the company to cease production immediately.
Misha Solodovnikov, the general manager of T&R Production, told employees that this is likely the end of RT America. “Unfortunately, we anticipate this layoff will be permanent, meaning that this will result in the permanent separation from employment of most T&R employees at all locations,” he wrote.

Earlier this week, DirecTV, one of the only two providers carrying the network in the U.S., announced it was dropping the channel and former “SNL” star Dennis Miller quit the morning show he hosted on the network, “Dennis Miller + One.”
the Right Wing are funny:  sometimes it's as if they know (the smarter ones at least) that most of their views regarding social & international politics are not only frowned upon by a majority, but ethically appalling by any normal standard.   Then when they get caught gleefully supporting a crazed dictator, attending White Power meetings, blocking adult women from having abortions, and actively seek to prevent people of color from voting, they change the subject, turn and run away.

Dennis Miller is a Bill O'Reilly apologist and a huge disappointment.




Edited by Atavachron - March 03 2022 at 20:47
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