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progaardvark 
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Crossover/Symphonic/RPI Teams
Joined: June 14 2007
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Points: 52628
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 Posted: March 03 2022 at 14:10 |
I understand that Georgia has applied for formal EU membership today.
Ukrainian forces have gone on their first offensive of the war and advanced to Horlivka in Donetsk Oblast.
Also read a story that some Russian soldiers have been punching holes in their gas tanks, presumably to avoid combat.
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i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag
that's a happy bag of lettuce
this car smells like cartilage
nothing beats a good video about fractions
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micky
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Posted: March 03 2022 at 14:41 |
which sure doesn't help with a major weakness the Russians face here. Logistics and of course shades of the Great War again... partisan/guerilla warfare. Troops running out supplies and railroads (even in Belarus reportedly) being torn up.
that 40 mile long column was begging for attacks and has been which explains why it has been 'paused'. Impressive footage of the drone strikes. The thing is that is nasty terrain north of Kviv.. easy to hide and strike forth forth. Might have been the shortest route but far from the most secure. Wonder how long before we hear more shades of the Great War and the first Russian general is 'retired' with a bullet in the back of the head for making the arm chair generalismo in Moscow look the fool.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Easy Money
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Joined: August 11 2007
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Points: 10680
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Posted: March 03 2022 at 15:08 |
 progaardvark wrote:
I understand that Georgia has applied for formal EU membership today.
Ukrainian forces have gone on their first offensive of the war and advanced to Horlivka in Donetsk Oblast.
Also read a story that some Russian soldiers have been punching holes in their gas tanks, presumably to avoid combat. |
Yes, some Russian forces have been surrendering due to the fact they were not told they would be attacking Ukrainians. The people of these two countries often have relatives in common. Food supplies are also running short. A friend of mine from the area shared some videos with me that showed refueling stations in Russia that had been hacked by Ukrainians. The stations did not work and on the electronic display it said if you want fuel, go ask putin.
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tszirmay
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Posted: March 03 2022 at 15:26 |
jamesbaldwin wrote:
@Tszirmay, @Lewian @Raff @Easy Money
In Italy we have Sergio Romano, 93, a diplomat who has traveled half the world, Italian ambassador to NATO and to Gorbachev's Russia, an anticommunist conservative, well, what does he say? For years he has been saying that NATO is a war machine that is dangerously expanding to the East and that by doing so it will provoke a reaction from Russia which with Gorbachev and Yeltsin committed suicide and that with Putin it is reacting to the humiliation that the United States are facing. Humiliation, why? Because Reagan had promised Gorbachev with a handshake that NATO would never expand into Eastern Europe. This handshake appears to have been real, Putin in his interview with Oliver Stone said that Gorbachev was naive not to put this American promise in writing. After Gorbachev, Yeltsin provoked the breakup of the Soviet Union with a senseless centralist policy (which is why Romano speaks of suicide), after which Russia lost Ukraine - lost everything. And after Gorbachev, the US with Clinton and Bush jr etc. they surrounded Russia. It doesn't matters whether Poland or the Baltic Sea republics have nuclear weapons aimed at Russia, what matters is that they have entered NATO, they are "enemies" now and they can serve as a basis for American weapons. This is the humiliation.
Russia tried to keep Belarus and Ukraine as "buffer" states, but as we know in Ukraine there was a coup, the so-called "Orange Revolution", which brought an anti-Russian government to power (and on that revolution there are two opposing narratives, the pro-American one, and the pro-Russian one: for example, the documentary by Oliver Stone).
Now, it is clear that the Ukrainians, who have as president a comedian who founded a party that is called in the same way of the television series in which he starred (in practice a disciple of Silvio Berlusconi), Ukraine should have the right to decide who to ally with,yes, but the the real world, not the ideal world, has to deal with politics and history: if you analyze the world from a historical and geopolitical point of view, the most sensible thing for them is neutrality. Indeed Sergio Romano as a diplomat would have advised them to be neutral.
As for the United States, I remind Tszirmay that it is the only country in the world that has bombed and invaded nations from every continent, so there is nothing funny about considering the US as the leading imperialist and warmongering country in the world.
As for the war in the Yugoslavia, never approved by the United Nations, I remember that the massacres of civilians for ethnic reasons are subsequent to the NATO bombing. But the war propaganda has tried to tell the opposite thing. Furthermore, NATO, with its American military bases spread throughout Europe, served as a base for the bombings in Libya (Reagan), Iraq (for many years, until the invasion of Bush jr), Afghanistan, and then again Libya (this time because of France). The United States is also the main arms producer and exporter, and its budget of money spent on arms is about 10 times that of Russia, which does not have the sophisticated means that the United States enjoys.
The Italian Left degenerated precisely with the war on Kosovo, approved by the post-communist Massimo D'Alema as head of the government.
Ultimately we must distinguish the two planes: the ideal one of what would be right from the real one of what is most likely possible. |
Love your exalted passion, but disappointed with your passionate exaggerations . You stated stridently that nuclear missiles would be/are aimed at Russia by NATO, and now you just edited it to being targeted by NATO , omitting the nuclear part, which makes sense when you have submarine -borne ICBMs , so who cares what is being aimed at the border(that should have been your better argument/response).
Your use of the term "SURROUNDED" is also quite laughable as it means a full circle enclosure. Well, Azerbaijan, Belarus, China, Estonia, Finland, Georgia, Kazakhstan, North Korea, Latvia, Lithuania, Mongolia, Norway, Poland, and Ukraine are Russia's current land borders . It also shares maritime borders with Japan, Sweden, Turkey, and the United States. Aside from the last two, which are maritime borders, where is Russia "SURROUNDED"? .
Yes, NATO bombed Serbia in may 1999 , 4 years after Srebenica (July 11 to 22 1995) . Not exactly a knee jerk reaction, wot? Many Europeans want NATO to disband but are unwilling/incompetent to take over European security, clearly proven during the breakup of Yugoslavia. Sadly Romano knows this quite well but it does not suit the argument. So we just silence it. Your major if not complete point was that Russia is a somewhat victim of NATO aggression. NATO exists only because of RUSSIAN (ex-Soviet) aggression.
Wonder what a young Gorbachev would have done in todays setting!
Keep up the good work
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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tszirmay
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Joined: August 17 2006
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Posted: March 03 2022 at 15:37 |
tszirmay wrote:
[QUOTE=jamesbaldwin]@Tszirmay, @Lewian @Raff @Easy Money
In Italy we have Sergio Romano, 93, a diplomat who has traveled half the world, Italian ambassador to NATO and to Gorbachev's Russia, an anticommunist conservative, well, what does he say? For years he has been saying that NATO is a war machine that is dangerously expanding to the East and that by doing so it will provoke a reaction from Russia which with Gorbachev and Yeltsin committed suicide and that with Putin it is reacting to the humiliation that the United States are facing. Humiliation, why? Because Reagan had promised Gorbachev with a handshake that NATO would never expand into Eastern Europe. This handshake appears to have been real, Putin in his interview with Oliver Stone said that Gorbachev was naive not to put this American promise in writing. After Gorbachev, Yeltsin provoked the breakup of the Soviet Union with a senseless centralist policy (which is why Romano speaks of suicide), after which Russia lost Ukraine - lost everything. And after Gorbachev, the US with Clinton and Bush jr etc. they surrounded Russia. It doesn't matters whether Poland or the Baltic Sea republics have nuclear weapons aimed at Russia, what matters is that they have entered NATO, they are "enemies" now and they can serve as a basis for American weapons. This is the humiliation.
Russia tried to keep Belarus and Ukraine as "buffer" states, but as we know in Ukraine there was a coup, the so-called "Orange Revolution", which brought an anti-Russian government to power (and on that revolution there are two opposing narratives, the pro-American one, and the pro-Russian one: for example, the documentary by Oliver Stone).
Now, it is clear that the Ukrainians, who have as president a comedian who founded a party that is called in the same way of the television series in which he starred (in practice a disciple of Silvio Berlusconi), Ukraine should have the right to decide who to ally with,yes, but the the real world, not the ideal world, has to deal with politics and history: if you analyze the world from a historical and geopolitical point of view, the most sensible thing for them is neutrality. Indeed Sergio Romano as a diplomat would have advised them to be neutral.
As for the United States, I remind Tszirmay that it is the only country in the world that has bombed and invaded nations from every continent, so there is nothing funny about considering the US as the leading imperialist and warmongering country in the world.
As for the war in the Yugoslavia, never approved by the United Nations, I remember that the massacres of civilians for ethnic reasons are subsequent to the NATO bombing. But the war propaganda has tried to tell the opposite thing. Furthermore, NATO, with its American military bases spread throughout Europe, served as a base for the bombings in Libya (Reagan), Iraq (for many years, until the invasion of Bush jr), Afghanistan, and then again Libya (this time because of France). The United States is also the main arms producer and exporter, and its budget of money spent on arms is about 10 times that of Russia, which does not have the sophisticated means that the United States enjoys.
The Italian Left degenerated precisely with the war on Kosovo, approved by the post-communist Massimo D'Alema as head of the government.
Ultimately we must distinguish the two planes: the ideal one of what would be right from the real one of what is most likely possible. |
Edited by tszirmay - March 03 2022 at 15:49
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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micky
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Posted: March 03 2022 at 15:46 |
Easy Money wrote:
refueling stations in Russia that had been hacked by Ukrainians. The stations did not work and on the electronic display it said ...... |
probably best Micky is in retirement... already not a fair fight for the Russians without tossing me into it on the already cheeky enough Ukrainian side
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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tszirmay
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Posted: March 03 2022 at 15:52 |
Mr.Baldwin :
Romano is not necessarily the right source of truth and vision as he is/was a politician, holder of an agenda as well as various overt and covert interests . As an Italian, you should know that POLITICIANs are nor credible at all..especially with history. Historians , on the other hand, have a duty to at the very least, get the W4 right (who, what, where and when) while the why is often only verifiable with time and space.
As for Russia , I remind JamesBladwin that it is the only country in the world that has carved out and invaded neighbouring nations on two continents, so there is nothing funny about considering Russia as the original imperialist and warmongering country in the world, as the Russian Empire (larger than the current one) was not benign, kind and generous in anyway whatsoever. But of course that was a few hundred years ago, when America was busy dumping British tea in Boston harbour, unlike today. Post ww2 USA is a sad affair indeed, all will admit.
Lastly, which came first , YALTA and the imposition of Soviet rule in Eastern and Central Europe ( a Roosevelt/Truman weakness or a Stalin coup de maitre, your choice) or NATO ?
Edited by tszirmay - March 03 2022 at 16:00
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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jamesbaldwin
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 25 2015
Location: Milano
Status: Offline
Points: 6052
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Posted: March 03 2022 at 17:08 |
Easy Money wrote:
@ jamesbaldwin
You seem to justify putin's genocide by saying the US does the same thing. Yes, the US has done deplorable things around the world, and many of us in the US try to stop that.
If you want to equate what putin is doing to Ukraine, to what bush did in Iraq, I agree with you, but I arrive at a different conclusion than you. Both are deplorable genocide. One does not justify the other.
putin has done a huge disservice to his own people here. It will take Russia decades to climb out of this. My sympathies are to the Russian people, not the psychotic and cruel putin. |
No, the beginning of my first comment was:
"This is my opinion:
1) Putin invaded Ukraine with the intention of annexing it to Russia. The invasion of a sovereign state is always a crime, we must condemned it, regardless of the reasons. More devastating this invasion will be in terms of destruction and deaths, Greater will be the crimes to be blamed on Putin. And unfortunately Putin's crimes are growing day by day."
So, I dont justify Putin.
(To talk about genocide there must be millions of dead: we are a long way from genocide, until now).
You compare the Russian invasion of Ukraine to the US invasion of Iraq: I consider it much more serious, because:
1) The US destroyed all of Iraq 2) They made many thousands of deaths (I don't know now how many) 3) They overthrew the Iraqi government 4) Iraq had done nothing to the US, and it had never been its territory, and it was on the other side of the world. 5) It destabilized the whole Middle East and led to terrorism which then ended up in Syria as well
Putin has invaded a nation bordering Russia, which was part of Russia, which contains Russian majority regions that have been persecuted by the Kiev government, and which wants to ally itself militarily with its enemy.
It seems to me that the difference is big. Then we will see if Putin, as he declared, wants to take over all of Ukraine and overturn his government: this would be almost as serious as the invasion of Iraq.
In any case, Putin has already committed great crimes in his past, for example in Chechnya and Syria.
Edited by jamesbaldwin - March 03 2022 at 17:10
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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micky
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Posted: March 03 2022 at 17:09 |
I must say aloud what I've been thinking.. I'm surprised... really surprised in a pleasant kind of way.
Zelenskyy sort of shamed the west out of turning and running on the first jet out and instead ...fighting this fight. His bravery alone probably resulted in the seismic shift in German pacifistic policy. He is not just a leader that Ukrainians will fight and die for... but an immensely inspirational figure to those worldwide who have longed to have leaders to look up to and feel inspired by.
So the west began to directly support him and Ukraine materially... yes much was made of not confronting Putin directly with troops or air power... but there was a middle ground between them and it seems like we are occupying it.
I had sort of hoped the recent SOTU address would be less inspirational and a bit more sober... telling the American public what many of us who are paying attention know... if not already in ww3.. we are this close to it. Russia has to be stopped with the Ukraine or the next war (and there isn't an expert alive who thinks it stops there) will bring direct conflict. What pleases me is we are not just indirectly supporting them, shipping off weapons and supplies but are directly helping the Ukrainians via real time intelligence and providing them information and targeting information. In lieu of Putin's warning of nuclear hell with any interference.. that is a big step skirting the line closer than I thought we ever would.. calling his bluff? Perhaps. One I wasn't sure we'd have the guts or wherewithall to do. However that may do a great deal to help Ukraine offset Russian advantages and take advantage of Russia's weaknesses. Gutsy move Biden...
Edited by micky - March 03 2022 at 17:15
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Easy Money
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Joined: August 11 2007
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Posted: March 03 2022 at 17:10 |
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Re jamesbaldwin:
putin has made it very clear what he plans to do. Make excuses for him if you want, but I oppose military aggression, whether it is US or Russia or anyone else. If you are not making excuses for him, then our conversation is finished, we can both say we oppose military aggression no matter where it comes from.
Edited by Easy Money - March 03 2022 at 17:13
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SteveG
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Posted: March 03 2022 at 17:36 |
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Don't Let it bother you John. People from countries with no standing and no power always pick apart the countries that do.
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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Easy Money
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Posted: March 03 2022 at 17:39 |
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^ I'm not bothered at all Steve. I'm here to support the people of Ukraine no matter what. Considering what they are going through, this is nothing.
Appreciate you man.
Edited by Easy Money - March 03 2022 at 17:39
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tszirmay
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Posted: March 03 2022 at 17:39 |
This just in: the largest nuclear power plant in Europe is in Enerhodar and its currently ON FIRE , from Russian artillery shelling   Possibly environmental disaster of Chernobylian proportions .
Edited by tszirmay - March 03 2022 at 17:39
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Easy Money
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Posted: March 03 2022 at 17:43 |
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For those struggling with English definitions, this might help. I do not see the word 'millions'. Do you?
gen·o·cide
/ˈjenəˌsīd/
Learn to pronounce
noun
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group
"a campaign of genocide"
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micky
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Posted: March 03 2022 at 17:51 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Atavachron
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Posted: March 03 2022 at 17:51 |
Astounding footage from UATV assuming it's genuine and these soldiers are not being coerced [which they certainly could be], this is not at all the Russian army I remember from the post-Soviet '90s --
Edited by Atavachron - March 03 2022 at 17:53
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Easy Money
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Posted: March 03 2022 at 17:52 |
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jamesbaldwin
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Posted: March 03 2022 at 17:54 |
@tszirmay
After the Second World War, in the West (USA) there was NATO, in the East (USSR) the Warsaw Pact.
Now there is no longer the USSR, and there is no longer the Warsaw Pact. Indeed, Warsaw is the capital of a state that joined NATO like all of Eastern Europe, from north to south, which is why I say that Russia is surrounded: what matters is European Russia.
Europe has only a monetary and economic union, and having incorporated the states of the East, which have very little to do with the states of the West, it will NEVER have its own internal and international policy. In short, the European Union has gone bankrupt, it only works for banks and the free market.
In the former Yugoslavia, I repeat to you, the major crimes of ethnic cleansing took place after NATO entered the war. In that years, I was going to demonstrate against Italy's entry into the war.
As for Ukraine, it is since the 2014 coup that I fear we would have entered the war, especially after the repression of Russian areas by the Ukrainian military.
Understanding Russia's reasons does not mean justifying the invasion, but understanding what the solution could be. And I think Sergio Romano is right about this: the solution is NOT to let Ukraine join NATO and not even the EU.
I mentioned Sergio Romano because he is the exact opposite of a politician. He was an ambassador, he has been involved in diplomacy for 70 years, and he knows the US (he married an American woman) and Russia very well. He is a historian, he has no agenda to respect. And above all he has never had any sympathies for Russia (he is a conservative, he is righ-wing in short). Precisely for this reason I mentioned it. But I could mention other Italian left-wing intellectuals or historians who think like him. Of course this does not mean that he is right, what he says is not written in the Bible or the Koran.
Simply, I believe that if wars are to be avoided, NATO should be dissolved, the American military bases in Europe should be evacuated, Europe should find a political union, even dividing itself between West and East, while remaining economically united, the United Nations have failed and should be abolished and reformed all over again: all wars start from the 5 nations who sit on the security council. In short, we are in another historical, new era, which no longer has anything to do with the balances that arose in Yalta.
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Easy Money
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Posted: March 03 2022 at 17:54 |
Atavachron wrote:
Astounding footage from UATV assuming it's genuine and these soldiers are not being coerced [which they certainly could be], this is not at all the Russian army I remember from the post-Soviet '90s --
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Governments always sucker the young and the naive. It happened to my stepson too. He has permanent war injuries.
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tszirmay
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Posted: March 03 2022 at 17:54 |
I almost choked on that too when I read that , as if killing 100.000 does not warrant the claim of genocide.  Lorenzo is a smart guy but lacks any rigour or fact-checking and, when faced with rigour or fact-checking, he pretends to not even notice. He, sadly, is a commentator and political "pundit" , nothing more , nothing less.
BTW, YALTA =1945. NATO= 1949
Case closed, in legal terms, precedent counts .  |
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Russia/Ukraine tensions - Any concern?
