When was prog labeled?

Cristi wrote: Catcher10 wrote: David_D wrote: Catcher10 wrote: I don't use the word "prog" to describe King Crimson, JTull, Yes, Genesis. I use the word "prog" to describe bands like Porcupine Tree, Dream Theater, Riverside, Marillion, IQ. So for me the word "prog" came after "progressive", more in the 80's-90's. Prog is merely an attribute of progressive.  I'm curious about this distinction, Catcher, how come? To me "prog" is merely an adjective, whereas "progressive" is a noun more so, regarding music. Those newer bands to me are not progressive but for sure have a lot of prog attributes. I think it's the other way around, "prog" is a noun, name of a music genre and "progressive" is the adjective. describing, as you say music attributes.

SteveG wrote: The best way to dispel this myth is by what many have done before. Namely, track down music magazines of the era like Meloidy Maker and New Musical Express and see if the term progressive rock was actually used as a descriptor of this music by the writers of these publications.

Edited by enigmatic - February 24 2022 at 14:16

moshkito wrote: Hi, I think this is bad ... it's like saying that none of us know anything, and did not live through anything, and someone has to quote something that supposedly has more to say than many of the folks here on PA. In my book, this is disrespectful to a lot of folks here and needs to stop!

Edited by David_D - February 25 2022 at 05:15

David_D wrote: Please, stop being so negative, and I'd say this is personal attack which is not allowed by PA rules.

Edited by David_D - February 25 2022 at 10:35

enigmatic wrote: SteveG wrote: The best way to dispel this myth is by what many have done before. Namely, track down music magazines of the era like Meloidy Maker and New Musical Express and see if the term progressive rock was actually used as a descriptor of this music by the writers of these publications. PLEASE READ: The information I provided about Chris Welch and Cream was taken from Mojo magazine and review of new progressive rock book by Mike Barnes "A New Day Yesterday: UK Progressive Rock and the 1970s". It seems like an urban legend. After going through various old issues of Melody Maker and New Musical Express, it's highly unlikely that the term/label "progressive rock" was coined in 1967-1969. I don't own these old issues, I found them online on this website, so you can do your own research if you want: https://worldradiohistory.com/index-International.htm The website has a primitive search engine or you can download PDFs and look through them individually. I wasn't successful,  I didn't find even one appearance of "progressive rock" label in any of the issues from 1967, 68, 69 that I selected. I DIDN"T LOOK IN ALL OF THEM, I didn't have enough time and patience to check them all. There're plenty of references to progressive pop, progressive bands, progressive albums, progressive music, but no "progressive rock". Even Dylan was "progressive" those days! Little detective work on my part: Macan and his statement about liner notes to 1969 Caravan's debut album being first place where the term "progressive rock" was coined. I am 99% sure that the statement is incorrect. "Caravan belong to a new breed of progressive rock groups - freeing themselves from the restricting conventions of pop music by using unusual time signatures and sophisticated harmonies. Their arrangements involve variations of tempo and dynamics of almost symphonic complexity." I could be wrong but it seems that this sentence is included for the first time on 1972 reissue of the album (MGM Records): https://www.discogs.com/release/1235001-Caravan-Caravan You can click on "More Images" link and see the back side of LP cover. 1972, not 1969. Original 1969 album cover (on Verve Forecast) has a different liner notes.  https://www.discogs.com/release/3405801-Caravan-Caravan They are hard to read, very small font, but I own Japanese Mini LP replica of Verve Forecast album. I had to use a magnifying glass, but the reference to "progressive rock" term is nowhere to be found.

I'm just glad that I didn't have to read through all of these old magazone articles and reviews. I feel old enough as it is. Even if the Caravan liner note is off by a few years, it's still in an era when progressive rock was not used. No harm done. Progressive bands, progressive pop, etc., referred to artists and albums that were deemed to be "underground" and somewhat counterculture, just to make things more confusing.

Edited by SteveG - February 24 2022 at 18:42

^ Wow! "a false prophet", seriously?

enigmatic wrote: SteveG wrote:    I'm just glad that I didn't have to read through all of these old magazine articles and reviews. I feel old enough as it is. Even if the Caravan liner note is off by a few years, it's still in an era when progressive rock was not used. No harm done. Progressive bands, progressive pop, etc., referred to artists and albums that were deemed to be "underground" and somewhat counterculture, just to make things more confusing. Well, as someone already mentioned it before me (I believe moshkito), Caravan's debut doesn't deserve to be remembered as the album that coined "progressive rock" term/label. I am a huge fan of the band and the debut, but at best this is a psychedelic pop-rock album, not "progressive rock" album. Let's put that myth to rest. "Progressive rock" term was used in late 60's and early 70's, not very often as we think, but definitely was used in British and American press. Here some samples and the credit for finding them goes to Fitzcarraldo: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes: Queen Elizabeth Hall, London Mark Williams, International Times, 9 April 1970      IT HAS BEEN many months since I've seen YES and the consequent starvation of tight British progressive rock music par excellence left me eagerly awaiting the start of their first solo concert. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ International Times was underground newspaper founded in London in 1966. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ King Crimson Opens Its Rock 'n' Roll Stand Los Angeles Times, Dec 5, 1969 JOHN MENDELSOHN King Crimson, who opened Wednesday at Hollywood's Whisky, is known in the pop press of its native England as a progressive rock group. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ New Musical Express, January 1, 1972 UFO: 1972 SHOULD BE YEAR THEY BREAK BRITISH MARKET      Chances are you've never heard of UFO so it might come as a surprise revelation that they've sold over a million singles, nearly half-a-million albums, have an American contract with Tamla Motown and this month played to 23,000 people on one Japanese gig. What's more, they're British!      For UFO (Unidentified Flying Object) perhaps we should substitute UPG (Unidentified Pop Group). In any case this talented London foursome started out under the unlikely nomenclature of The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly before their record company boss thought up the present appendage. Still, even Creedence were once known as the Golliwogs!      Why then the lack of acceptance at home "I don't know. Perhaps it's because the public has become a little tired of progressive rock groups and we're a progressive rock group. But we do avoid the usual cliches and try to give the public something more than just freaky sounds." said vocalist Phil Mogg, who works himself to a frazzle on-stage in true Arthur Brown/Lord Sutch/Screamin' Jay Hawkins manner. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emerson Lake And Palmer: Super-Group Of The Seventies! Keith Altham, Petticoat, 4 November 1972      EMERSON LAKE and Palmer may not be three names which are immediately known to you but to millions of progressive rock music fans across the World they are the only group. Better musicians than the Beatles, more exciting than the Rolling Stones and with a super-keyboard player able to leap tall organs at a single bound! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Greenslade: Greenslade Warming Up Chris Welch, Melody Maker, 16November 1974      THERE'S DEVIL'S work afoot in the world of rock (and indeed roll). Wot wiv the price of petrol and motorway chips it's a wonder there are any progressive rock bands left on the road who can't live off their record royalties. On top of that musicians have to put up with jibes (and in many cases, gibes) of the "techno-flash" variety from supporters of the popular antimusic front. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well, I wouldn't consider the Los Angeles Times an authority on "progressive rock", or any rock, for that matter.   

Edited by SteveG - February 25 2022 at 10:49

enigmatic wrote: ^ SteveG this is a typical chicken/egg dilemma. What comes first - a label or definition? IMO you can name anything without defining it first. "Progressive rock" label was coined without defining it first. We are trying to find out when the label was created, not defined. The definition came later. Weekly music magazines role was NOT to define the genres of music. We would have to look probably in publications (books, encyclopedias).

Chicken/egg? No, not even close. That's because you are probably retrojecting back to what you consider the term to mean in it's current usage, and definition. "Progressive rock" and "progressive bands" were conflated with "underground bands" in that era. "Underground" was a catchall phrase that involved both music and social-political identifiers. Mostly both, but sometimes just one or the other. To make this simple, if you can find a magazine article or list from 1969-1974 that has titles like "The 10 best Progressive Rock albums of 1970" or "The best Progressive Rock bands of 1972", then you have concrete usage of the term. Because to have anyone of those titles used in a music media publication, there would have to be a definition (or at least a general consensus) of the genre first. And only first. Not an chicken or the egg question.

Edited by SteveG - February 25 2022 at 12:10

SteveG wrote: [if you can find a magazine article or list from 1969-1974 that has titles like "The 10 best Progressive Rock albums of 1970" or "The best Progressive Rock bands of 1972", then you have concrete usage of the term. Because to have anyone of those titles used in a music media publication, there would have to be a definition.

"King Crimson, who opened Wednesday at Hollywood's Whisky, is known in the pop press of its native England as a progressive rock group."

Edited by enigmatic - February 25 2022 at 16:35