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20 of your great UK Prog Rock classics?

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David_D View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2022 at 11:42

I certainly had some good expectations for this thread, but I never imagined 
that it would become such a good story - came to his mind while listning to 

                        No Earthly Connection





Edited by David_D - February 18 2022 at 11:47
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Philchem8 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Philchem8 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2022 at 12:57
It would be interesting to discuss how different people define what they consider to be "great classics", but I'll come back to that at the end of my list. I've limited myself to prog-rock (or at least progish) albums from the UK (as instructed). Now I could have included all 7 Genesis prog albums in my top 20, but in order to make room for other bands, I've limited Genesis to 4. So, in alphabetical order:

Aqualung - Jethro Tull
Ashes Are Burning - Renaissance
The Dark Side of the Moon - Pink Floyd 
Days of Future Passed - The Moody Blues
Foxtrot - Genesis
In the Court of the Crimson King - King Crimson
Islands - King Crimson (some critics see it as one of their worst from their early years - I beg to differ)
In Search of the Lost Chord - The Moody Blues
In the Wake of Poseidon - King Crimson
The Kick Inside - Kate Bush (not sure it's prog, but close enough)
Moonmadness - Camel
Nursery Cryme - Genesis
Phantasmagoria - Curved Air
A Salty Dog - Procol Harum
Selling England By the Pound - Genesis
The Snow Goose - Camel
Stand Up - Jethro Tull
Wind & Wuthering - Genesis
Wish You Were Here - Pink Floyd
The Yes Album - Yes  

All these albums have a score of at least 3.6 (or very close to that in 2 cases) on RateYour Music and a relatively significant amount of votes, a score of at least 3.7 on on ProArchives (except for one) and at least 4 stars by AllMusic Guide (except for one). This may set the bar a bit low for you, but I consider 3.6 on RYM a relatively high rating, albeit not stellar - several of the ELP albums others have included here get about that. Now it's of course debatable what is a "great classic" anyway and beyond about the top 50 prog albums, I think the opinions of critics and audiences start diverging significantly. One of the best ranking of prog-albums I've seen is a list of 367 albums on RYM made by someone called alexanderkein. What is interesting about this list is that it takes account ratings from a variety sources (ProgArchives, RYM, Acclaimed Music, Rolling Stones, Cosmos Rock etc.), rather than basing itself on the preferences of one individual or one poll. Not sure about the methodology used though. Prog Magazine's top 100 prog albums list is pretty good too.    

  
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Philchem8 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Philchem8 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2022 at 13:04
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

[QUOTE=David_D]Have you ever posted your own conclusions based on the responses to the below?

If you'd like me to post conclusion to this thread, I'd like you to show me how to do it because frankly speaking, I don't know it.

After a while, it could be interesting to list the 20 albums that have been the most mentioned and the number of members who have participated, to get an overall idea of the tastes of this community....but you would need to have some time on your hands Smile 
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David_D View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2022 at 13:32
Originally posted by Philchem8 Philchem8 wrote:

It would be interesting to discuss how different people define what they consider to be "great classics"...

Yes, I find this question very interesting as well, but that would certainly need an own thread which I'd be happy to join in if you start it. Smile

Originally posted by Philchem8 Philchem8 wrote:

After a while, it could be interesting to list the 20 albums that have been the most mentioned and the number of members who have participated, to get an overall idea of the tastes of this community....but you would need to have some time on your hands Smile 

Yes, it would be quite time demanding, but the most important question here is what this list could tell. As far as I've observed it, people here list often not only according to their taste but due to other reasons, too.

And thank you very much for your contributing here. Smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2022 at 13:41

By the way, Philchem, if you haven't seen yet my top 160 Prog albums all-time made in 2019 on basis of all the ratings on RYM and PA, and you could be interested, it can be seen starting in this thread: 

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=127673 .






Edited by David_D - February 18 2022 at 13:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2022 at 13:49
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Philchem8 Philchem8 wrote:

It would be interesting to discuss how different people define what they consider to be "great classics"...
Yes, I find this question very interesting as well, but that would certainly need an own thread which I'd be happy to join in if you start it. Smile

I could discuss these question here with you as well, if you could be interested, and I could start with those of my thoughts which led to my definition here.


Edited by David_D - February 18 2022 at 13:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2022 at 01:36

But I still like you, Cristi, and believe in the Good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote omphaloskepsis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2022 at 02:20
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by enigmatic enigmatic wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I'm currently putting together a Top 100 list of obscure British albums collated from the prog vaults, so whenever it's ready, I'll post it either here, there, or somewhere else entirely. Smile

Can't wait, but post it somewhere else. Maybe it will trigger some interesting discussions. Top 100 list of obscure British albums list doesn't belong in "20 of your great UK prog classics" thread.

Thanks. I was being enigmatic as I haven't decided where to post it yet, but you're right, it doesn't belong on this thread.  Smile


LOL.  I had to doubletake your enigmatic enigmatic word play. You so funny, Paul. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2022 at 02:32
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

LOL.  I had to doubletake your enigmatic enigmatic word play. You so funny, Paul. 

But he was very helpful. Wink






Edited by David_D - February 19 2022 at 07:03
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Philchem8 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Philchem8 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2022 at 13:31
[QUOTE=David_D]

By the way, Philchem, if you haven't seen yet my top 160 Prog albums all-time made in 2019 on basis of all the ratings on RYM and PA, and you could be interested, it can be seen starting in this thread: 

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=127673 .






Thanks for your replies..and you can call me Phil. Yes, I have checked out that list a couple of times. It's a good list, useful when I'm looking for some new stuff to listen to. Although, since you only include one album per band, it excludes many classic albums.

Not sure that I would start a discussion on defining what is a "great classic", but I'm certainly interested in how you (and others who are interested) perceive this and if you are aware of any other sources that would help to determine what is a great classic prog album.     

Edited by Philchem8 - February 19 2022 at 13:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2022 at 15:36
Originally posted by Philchem8 Philchem8 wrote:

Not sure that I would start a discussion on defining what is a "great classic", but I'm certainly interested in how you (and others who are interested) perceive this and if you are aware of any other sources that would help to determine what is a great classic prog album.

At first, I'd like to excuse for the mess in this thread, Phil, but that is what can happen on PA, even I think there are some extraordinary circumstances in this case.

Anyway, about other sources first, I can only refer to Larkin Colin and his book All time Top 1000 Albums (1994) which is a very good example of a critic's approach to the question, but it concerns all the "main" genres except from Classical, and thus not specific Progressive Rock. In fact, it includes only very little of Prog albums.

My own is somehow an opposite, "from the bottom", approach and as I write in my OP "by "great classics" I mean albums that are very high rated by really many people". That concerns of course only the "great" part of it, and as I view it, it's a kind of objective criteria as it's based on really many people's opinion. Further, it says that "a great" must be very highly appreciated, and to add the last part of it, to become "a classic" must be deserved by (really) many years appreciation, which I personally think of as at least 30-40 years.


Edited by David_D - March 06 2022 at 08:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2022 at 02:30
Originally posted by Philchem8 Philchem8 wrote:

Yes, I have checked out that list a couple of times. It's a good list, useful when I'm looking for some new stuff to listen to. Although, since you only include one album per band, it excludes many classic albums.

I find interesting the question what albums on that list can be said to represent, or be an expression of in relation to the raters. 
If you do that as well, I'd be happy to discuss it in the other thread ( Top 100 alltime! - based on ratings on RYM and PA ).

By the way, if you look at the highest rated albums of let's say the 50 highest placed bands/artists on that list, that might be most of the greatest Prog classics (maybe about 150-200 albums) - at least according to the Prog definition which I have used.


Edited by David_D - February 21 2022 at 04:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Philchem8 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2022 at 14:24
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

My own is somehow an opposite, "from the bottom", approach and as I write in my OP "by "great classics" I mean albums that are very high rated by really many people". That concerns of course only the "great" part of it, and as I view it, it's a kind of objective criteria as it's based on really many people's opinion. Further, it says that "a great" must be very highly appreciated, and to add the last part of it, to become "a classic" must be deserved by (really) many years appreciation, which I personally think of as at least 30-40 years.

In principle, I agree with with you, a "great classic" should be highly rated by as many people as possible, not only professional music critics, and this appreciation must stand the test of time (whether it's 20, 30 or 50 years I don't know). The problem in practice is who speaks for the people? You have mentioned RYM and I do find that's a pretty good indicator because albums there tend to have a higher number of ratings than on other music web sites that I am aware of. However, it's still an infinitely small number of people who are actually rating these albums. Dark Side of the Moon probably has the highest number of ratings among prog albums with 61,469 ratings, but that's a tiny fraction of the people who have listened to it. Can we take it as a sufficiently representative sample? it's hard to be definite because most people do not engage into rating albums, but they would still have an opinion if asked - and if these silent masses did rate albums, maybe top-selling albums like Whitney Houston's The Bodyguard, the Bee Gees' Saturday Night Fever and Alanis Morissette's Jagged Little Pill would rate higher than many of the classic prog albums that currently have more and higher ratings on RYM. So in the end, at the risk of sounding elitist, I would say it's not just a very high rating by "really many people" that would determine a great classic, but a very high rating by many people who are relatively musically critical and discerning. In that sense, I do think that the average rating person on RYM is probably more critical and discerning than the average public, but there are certain limits. I suspect that there are many more male raters and cult band followers, which would create some bias in the ratings. I find it interesting, for instance, that an album like King Crimson's Red, which most people have never heard of, currently has over 24,000 ratings on RYM and an average rating of 4.22, while Jagged Little Pill, one of the best-selling albums of all times, winner of the Best Album of the Year and several Grammy awards, has just over 6,000 ratings and a rating of 3.47. Of course, personally I prefer King Crimson, but I do think Red's rating is, in part, a result of the fact that there are many more KC fans who rate albums on RYM than fans of Morrissette. Just to finish, I'm not saying I disagree with the approach, but pointing out that it has limitations, as I'm sure you're aware.                                  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Philchem8 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2022 at 14:27
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Philchem8 Philchem8 wrote:

Yes, I have checked out that list a couple of times. It's a good list, useful when I'm looking for some new stuff to listen to. Although, since you only include one album per band, it excludes many classic albums.

I find interesting the question what albums on that list can be said to represent, or be an expression of in relation to the raters. 
If you do that as well, I'd be happy to discuss it in the other thread ( Top 100 alltime! - based on ratings on RYM and PA ).

To be honest, I'm not quite sure what you are saying in the sentence above Ermm - maybe you could clarify?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2022 at 15:06
Originally posted by Philchem8 Philchem8 wrote:

To be honest, I'm not quite sure what you are saying in the sentence above Ermm - maybe you could clarify?

What I mean is that those albums are the highest rated but what does that exactly tell 
about the raters' view of them? 
Those albums are most liked?
They are most appreciated?
They are considered to be the best ones?
They have got the highest status?
They are maybe just those albums which were highest rated in the beginning, 
and the following raters just followed this high rating?
Or what can be told about them in general? 


Edited by David_D - February 22 2022 at 15:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2022 at 15:45
Originally posted by Philchem8 Philchem8 wrote:

In principle, I agree with with you, a "great classic" should be highly rated by as many people as possible, not only professional music critics, and this appreciation must stand the test of time (whether it's 20, 30 or 50 years I don't know). The problem in practice is who speaks for the people? You have mentioned RYM and I do find that's a pretty good indicator because albums there tend to have a higher number of ratings than on other music web sites that I am aware of. However, it's still an infinitely small number of people who are actually rating these albums. 

As the first, I'd say that one has to look only at one genre at a time, say Progressive Rock, and only consider this genre and not begin to mix it with artists from other genres. Then, one can think about how representative the given rating (maybe on RYM + PA) is for all the listeners of this genre.

Next, it's of course good to consider alternative sources for possible determination of great classics. It could be top-selling albums. 
My own approach is what I for some reasons have found as the best of those which were accessible for me. 

I guess that it would be best to discuss this matter further on basis of something quite precise, for instance my top 160 list.


Edited by David_D - February 21 2022 at 16:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2022 at 12:00

But how about an apology, ExittheLemming? I might think more positive about you in the future.

Or tell me at least more exactly what was bothering you.






Edited by David_D - February 22 2022 at 15:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Philchem8 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2022 at 14:12
Thanks for both of your latest replies to my comments David_D.. You raise some interesting ideas with respect to the question, "What I mean is that those albums are the highest rated but what does that exactly tell 
about the raters' view of them?". I don't have time to respond in detail right now, but I will try to share some thoughts tomorrow - and as you suggest, I will do it under your 'top 160 list' discussion instead of this thread.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Magog2112 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2023 at 08:20
In no particular order:

1. Arena - The Visitor
2. Galahad - Following Ghosts
3. Genesis - Foxtrot
4. King Crimson - In The Court of the Crimson King
5. Marillion - Brave
6. Pendragon - Not of This World
7. Pink Floyd - Wish You Were Here
8. Yes - Going for the One
9. Van Der Graaf Generator - Pawn Hearts
10. Gentle Giant - Octopus
11. Pallas - The Dreams of Men
12. IQ - Dark Matter
13. Jethro Tull - A Passion Play
14. Emerson, Lake & Palmer - Brain Salad Surgery
15. Electric Light Orchestra - Eldorado
16. Arena - Contagion
17. Galahad - Empires Never Last
18. Genesis - Selling England By the Pound
19. Marillion - Marbles
20. Pendragon - Love Over Fear
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2023 at 21:07
Originally posted by Magog2112 Magog2112 wrote:

In no particular order:

1. Arena - The Visitor
2. Galahad - Following Ghosts
3. Genesis - Foxtrot
4. King Crimson - In The Court of the Crimson King
5. Marillion - Brave
6. Pendragon - Not of This World
7. Pink Floyd - Wish You Were Here
8. Yes - Going for the One
9. Van Der Graaf Generator - Pawn Hearts
10. Gentle Giant - Octopus
11. Pallas - The Dreams of Men
12. IQ - Dark Matter
13. Jethro Tull - A Passion Play
14. Emerson, Lake & Palmer - Brain Salad Surgery
15. Electric Light Orchestra - Eldorado
16. Arena - Contagion
17. Galahad - Empires Never Last
18. Genesis - Selling England By the Pound
19. Marillion - Marbles
20. Pendragon - Love Over Fear

I like this list very much although you may have the Genesis mafia on your case for putting SEBTP so low Wink

picking GFTO over other Yes albums is also quite 'ballsy'. It can be easily forgotten that was Yes most succesful album back in the day spawning 2 radio hits (Wonderous Stories and title track) as well as the popular epic Awaken and the stunning guitar of Howe on Turn Of The Century that was widely praised. For some Parallels is a down note but that is my favourite track on the album with a killer bass rif from Squire and Wakey's pipe organ antics. Never quite warmed to it as much as their others though from that period although I have a version on vinyl that I play occasionally and it sounds fine.


Edited by richardh - July 29 2023 at 21:09
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