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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

I'm really sure Jordan couldn't care less what you or anyone thinks! He's laughing all the way to the bank!
Well, OP's claim isn't adressed to him directly you know, but to people who cares in one way or another - such as yourself. If I write that I think Miley Cyrus sucks (I don't think she does, though), she probably couldn't care less either. Especially as she probably doesn't know a Progarchives-forum even exists.

And isn't the expression "crying all the way to the bank"?
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^ i just see no point in these negative posts. For every artist out there will be someone who doesn't like them.

A better way of discussing these things would be to have a comparative discussion so that others can come to their own conclusions

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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ i just see no point in these negative posts. For every artist out there will be someone who doesn't like them.

A better way of discussing these things would be to have a comparative discussion so that others can come to their own conclusions
If you don't see the point, why don't you just stay away? I don't even care about Jordan Rudess or Dream Theater, but I found this interesting. I recognice what he is talking about and I've often experienced similiar things when I check out new music/bands on PA (including DT). Why shouldn't this be ok to discuss? Positive/negative isn't all that relevant to me in regards to what I find interesting, so maybe we're just different. 
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ i just see no point in these negative posts. For every artist out there will be someone who doesn't like them.

A better way of discussing these things would be to have a comparative discussion so that others can come to their own conclusions
If you don't see the point, why don't you just stay away? I don't even care about Jordan Rudess or Dream Theater, but I found this interesting. I recognice what he is talking about and I've often experienced similiar things when I check out new music/bands on PA (including DT). Why shouldn't this be ok to discuss? Positive/negative isn't all that relevant to me in regards to what I find interesting, so maybe we're just different. 


Personally i don't care but i've seen these kinds of posts play out over the years and they don't always end well. Just expressing some concerns about emotional triggers some may have toward such wording like JORDAN RUDESS IS NOT INTERESTING. Human psychology is a tricky beast and it just comes off as a bit triggering to read a thread title like this for some. Personally i think Jordan Rudess is very interesting. Just because his music isn't moving to some doesn't mean he isn't too others. It's not about discussing or not discussing such things, it's about how it is presented. Maybe i should start a thread about how much Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot suck. I'm sure that would go over really well! I'm just saying that there are more sensitive and diplomatic ways of bringing up these topics  Wink

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So what is this thread about, the use of emoticons and how not to abuse them?

(I'm not a Rudess fan, the wonkery has become beyond boring. Kevin Moore any day of the year...)
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:


I'm really sure Jordan couldn't care less what you or anyone thinks! He's laughing all the way to the bank!

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I'm really sure there are only a handful among millions of musicians who actually care. And I'm sure neither of them even cares enough as to even laugh about it. But that doesn't take away my sleep. Actually it doesn't take the fun away from reading and writing in forums.
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by bender99 bender99 wrote:

I must admit that over time Jordan's playing has become less and less interesting to me, at least on the Dream Theater stuff (haven't heard any of his solo work). 

Whilst there's no doubting his technical skill ...
...


Hi,

Without criticizing either Jordan or the band, it is my thought that the band's music is not a total thing, that involves all the musicians, and thus, Jordan's additions to it, seem to come off more as just plain addons, than they do as part of the soul of the music itself.

In many ways, I do think that part of the problem is the use of the guitar that has been for almost 10 years totally concentrated on thrashing, and not on the greatness of the music, which would have to involve all the other members to make it stronger. Since everyone else is just background for the guitar, I'm not sure that anyone would have done better than Jordan ... this is the guitar's band, not anyone else's ... you don't even get anything better/stronger from anyone to help the music ... it is not allowed ... musicianship is like ... it can't exist next to a thrashing guitar!

In this sense, I really think DT is done. Anything they do will not amount to anything different and having moments and parts of the music that showcases, John, or Jordan, or even the singer. The way the band composes and works does not allow for that I don't think!

I kinda look at it this way ... that guitar player can't do anything but thrash and it hurts the totality of the band!





Totally agree. Proof of that is the most recent Liquid Tension Experiment album. In my opinion it's just an instrumental DT album with an unusual good mix that allows to finally acknowledge the existence of a bass guitar.
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^ i never liked  Liquid Tension Exp at all. Now that stuff IS boring however Rudess has been in the Dixie Dregs as well as Dream Theater and other lesser known acts like Rudess Morgenstein Project and Speedway Blvd.

He's one of those musicians who needs a good songwriter in cahoots so his technical chops can play a role instead of just a bolt of lightning.

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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

He's one of those musicians who needs a good songwriter in cahoots so his technical chops can play a role instead of just a bolt of lightning.
His solo stuff is not always lightning. How much of it have you heard? Jordan's latest solo release is similar to a calm wind.
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

He's one of those musicians who needs a good songwriter in cahoots so his technical chops can play a role instead of just a bolt of lightning.
His solo stuff is not always lightning. How much of it have you heard? Jordan's latest solo release is similar to a calm wind.


Haven't heard that one. I haven't really kept up with him in recent years.




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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ i just see no point in these negative posts. For every artist out there will be someone who doesn't like them.

A better way of discussing these things would be to have a comparative discussion so that others can come to their own conclusions
If you don't see the point, why don't you just stay away? I don't even care about Jordan Rudess or Dream Theater, but I found this interesting. I recognice what he is talking about and I've often experienced similiar things when I check out new music/bands on PA (including DT). Why shouldn't this be ok to discuss? Positive/negative isn't all that relevant to me in regards to what I find interesting, so maybe we're just different. 


Personally i don't care but i've seen these kinds of posts play out over the years and they don't always end well. Just expressing some concerns about emotional triggers some may have toward such wording like JORDAN RUDESS IS NOT INTERESTING. Human psychology is a tricky beast and it just comes off as a bit triggering to read a thread title like this for some. Personally i think Jordan Rudess is very interesting. Just because his music isn't moving to some doesn't mean he isn't too others. It's not about discussing or not discussing such things, it's about how it is presented. Maybe i should start a thread about how much Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot suck. I'm sure that would go over really well! I'm just saying that there are more sensitive and diplomatic ways of bringing up these topics  Wink
I see nothing wrong with how its presented and your concerns seems to be about yourself. If you started a thread about how much Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot suck, most members would probably think you were an idiot. But I wouldn't be triggered just because some stranger on the internet says stupid things about a couple of albums I enjoy. Besides odmusicman is actually far more sensitive and diplomatic than that + thought through. Its obviously coming from someone who cares about DT and has once liked Jordans playing. 
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Originally posted by odmusicman odmusicman wrote:

I watched as he attempted the simplest beautiful Christmas song or a Beatles song and was UNABLE to play the song through without a flurry of arpeggios spoiling the flow or intention of the song.

I look forward to your thoughts. Joe


I agree.  In fact, I think the whole band is guilty of musical excess....John Petrucci seems to want to solo only for the sake of soloing.  

Pity, as I believe they could be capable of much more.  Musical excess seems to be a hallmark of prog music, but it can still be overdone.  Great comments, thanks!
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ i just see no point in these negative posts. For every artist out there will be someone who doesn't like them.

A better way of discussing these things would be to have a comparative discussion so that others can come to their own conclusions
If you don't see the point, why don't you just stay away? I don't even care about Jordan Rudess or Dream Theater, but I found this interesting. I recognice what he is talking about and I've often experienced similiar things when I check out new music/bands on PA (including DT). Why shouldn't this be ok to discuss? Positive/negative isn't all that relevant to me in regards to what I find interesting, so maybe we're just different. 


Personally i don't care but i've seen these kinds of posts play out over the years and they don't always end well. Just expressing some concerns about emotional triggers some may have toward such wording like JORDAN RUDESS IS NOT INTERESTING. Human psychology is a tricky beast and it just comes off as a bit triggering to read a thread title like this for some. Personally i think Jordan Rudess is very interesting. Just because his music isn't moving to some doesn't mean he isn't too others. It's not about discussing or not discussing such things, it's about how it is presented. Maybe i should start a thread about how much Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot suck. I'm sure that would go over really well! I'm just saying that there are more sensitive and diplomatic ways of bringing up these topics  Wink
I see nothing wrong with how its presented and your concerns seems to be about yourself. If you started a thread about how much Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot suck, most members would probably think you were an idiot. But I wouldn't be triggered just because some stranger on the internet says stupid things about a couple of albums I enjoy. Besides odmusicman is actually far more sensitive and diplomatic than that + thought through. Its obviously coming from someone who cares about DT and has once liked Jordans playing. 


Maybe it should be presented better then. If Joe really wanted to discuss the merits of Jordan's interestingness, perhaps he should do a break down of every project Jordan has participated in and then explain how Jordan has devolved over time.

Here's a challenge. Simply rate every single album Jordan has performed on and explain how he has stagnated in your opinion. Step by step, devolution by devolution.

Simple words stating Jordan Rudess is not interesting doesn't say much at all now does it?

Better yet, explain how Jordan fails to impress over other keyboardists of prog over time.

Explain how his musicianship, showmanship and compositional fortitude make yawning inevitable.

Why is he boring? What is the definition of musical excess? Where has balance been breached? Where exactly has he jumped the shark into musical doldrums?

Come on, everybody! Bring on some real substance to this thread if you're going to defend it!

Otherwise LOL x 1000 is where i see this going!

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I am not a great fan of DT and Rudess, but I think the comparison to Emerson is a bit unfair because of what Emerson meant not only to his bands (don't forget The Nice), but the whole progressive rock. His keyboard playing is more or less the blueprint of keyboard-led progressive rock and it is difficult to find players that didn't get at least a little bit from him.

Rudess is a great musician, but he is not even the main composer in DT or the one who has the biggest saying on how DT music will evolve. He surely has some great parts in many songs, mostly intros and outros, but the core of his contributions is soloing and playing fast arpeggios because this is what Dream Theater music is focused on. 

By the way, he was a replacement of a guy who was replacing the original keyboardist and didn't stay long because his style didn't fit very well with the band, and the only studio album he released with DT is controversial among fans (I like it, btw), so Rudess doesn't seem to have that much space to do radically different things in DT. As for his previous work and solo, there are sure some different things, but the fact that he haven't done a Wakeman thing with lots of solo albums probably means that he is also not that interested in exploring too much other styles.
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

I'm really sure Jordan couldn't care less what you or anyone thinks! He's laughing all the way to the bank!

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Considering the circumstances of the sad passing of the other musician mentioned as a comparison (Emerson), I don't think money in the bank is a factor for most people who own it. It is usually people who don't have it that put such importance in a big bank account.
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:


Maybe it should be presented better then. If Joe really wanted to discuss the merits of Jordan's interestingness, perhaps he should do a break down of every project Jordan has participated in and then explain how Jordan has devolved over time.

Here's a challenge. Simply rate every single album Jordan has performed on and explain how he has stagnated in your opinion. Step by step, devolution by devolution.

Simple words stating Jordan Rudess is not interesting doesn't say much at all now does it?

Better yet, explain how Jordan fails to impress over other keyboardists of prog over time.

Explain how his musicianship, showmanship and compositional fortitude make yawning inevitable.

Why is he boring? What is the definition of musical excess? Where has balance been breached? Where exactly has he jumped the shark into musical doldrums?

Come on, everybody! Bring on some real substance to this thread if you're going to defend it!

Otherwise LOL x 1000 is where i see this going!
Why don't you do it yourself, but instead trying to prove odmusicman wrong? OP has already explained where he is coming from, and with enough substance for most everyone except yourself to understand this perfectly well. There's really no need for him to waste thousands of hours on further self-inflicted ear-torture. So far you've contibuted to nothing worthwhile, but just reacted like a hurt fanboy.

You obviously disagree with "Joe" and that's fine, but you're the one who hasn't come up with any actual arguments. Seriously, what's not to understand about this? I certainly get it, don't you?
Originally posted by odmusicman odmusicman wrote:

I began to realize as a composer/arranger I stopped being able to relate to his playing. I watched as he attempted the simplest beautiful Christmas song or a Beatles song and was UNABLE to play the song through without a flurry of arpeggios spoiling the flow or intention of the song.
His playing has become scripted, predictable, and uninteresting.
Originally posted by odmusicman odmusicman wrote:

generally his playing, practically in the last several years, is a lot of incessant fast flurries and doubling up with Petrucci (faster flurries) and endless fast arpeggios. As I stated, it's hard for me to think back over the last 5-6 years and think of a single memorable thing he played, a memorable theme, or an arrangement. That's what I mean.
Originally posted by odmusicman odmusicman wrote:

"Jordan Rudess was great in his first album with Dream Theater. Thereafter, the band is wholly uninteresting for me."
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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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Points: 11666 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2022 at 23:51
Originally posted by mickcoxinha mickcoxinha wrote:

I am not a great fan of DT and Rudess, but I think the comparison to Emerson is a bit unfair because of what Emerson meant not only to his bands (don't forget The Nice), but the whole progressive rock.
I read it as simply exemplifying by using another virtuoso player that understands how not to get w**kery in the way of the music, themes or composition. Emerson was probably chosen as I've learned that he is one of Rudess' main idols. I guess it could have been any performer (including a less flashy one) that knows how to "serve the music" rather than showing off his or her chops all the time.
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Icarium View Drop Down
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Points: 34055 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Icarium Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2022 at 00:16
I like the interview by Rick Beato, on both Rudess and Petrucci
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