Procol Harum's contribution to progressive rock |
Post Reply | Page 123> |
Author | ||
Philchem8
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 12 2021 Location: Ottawa Status: Offline Points: 231 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Posted: December 12 2021 at 13:29 |
|
Procol Harum is not usually thought of as one of the top classic prog-rock bands, and not everyone would agree that their music is really representative of progressive rock in general. On this site, PH is categorized as "crossover prog", which according to the definition, is prog-rock that has a closer connection to popular music. I have also seen their music referred to as proto-prog, psychedelia, rhythm & blues, symphonic rock, and hard rock. All these labels have their validity and I think point to the eclecticism and uniqueness of Procol's music. Overall, this music may not be quite as representative of the prog-rock genre as the music of ELP, Yes, Genesis, Gentle Giant etc., and in fact their first three albums pre-date King Crimson's first album and the wide use of the term, 'progressive rock'. Much of Procol's output is composed of relatively concise songs with fairly traditional musical structures and catchy choruses Yet, I think that Procol Harum has made a momentous contribution to prog-rock, one that is often overlooked and not quite appreciated (for instance, when one looks at the relatively moderate number of votes and ratings of their albums on this site). Their 'A White Shade of Pale', with its classical-derived melody and style is arguably the first prog-rock song. 'In Held 'Twas I', is I believe the first long, multi-segment, rock musical suite - a composition style that soon became a hallmark of much of prog-rock music. The band was also one of the first to record an album with a real philharmonic orchestra, while their early innovative use of the Hammond organ and poetic, complex and esoteric lyrics were undoubtedly influential and defining of progressive rock.
All this to set the context for the topic of this discussion, which is Procol Harum's contribution to progressive rock. How influential do you think PH has been to prog-rock? In which ways were they influential? And (if you don't want to try to answer these questions), which of their songs are most representative of the prog-rock genre in your view (not necessarily your favorites, but the ones you think "cross over" to prog the most)? For my part, without getting into the reasons why at this stage, I would highlight the following: A White Shade of Pale Repent Walpurgus Shine on Brightly In Held 'Twas I A Salty Dog Wreck of the Hesperus Pilgrim's Progress Whaling Stories Conquistador (live with Edmonton Philharmonic orchestra) Fires (which Burn Brightly)
|
||
The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 13049 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
|
Procol Harum was one of the earliest progenitors of prog, bringing sly wit and symphonic sensibility to psychedelia. To say they weren't "prog rock" is simply uneducated and revisionist. A song like "Whiter Shade of Pale" in 1967 with its nod to Bach's "Air on a G String" is emblematic of the neo-prog scene which also featured bands like The Moody Blues and The Nice.
That Procol Harum didn't dwell on album side-long suites (save for "In Held 'Twas I"), does not negate the progressivity of their compositions. "A Salty Dog" at 4:41 and the titanic "Whaling Stories" at 7:06 do not require 15-20 minutes of noodling around to be prog (or else Genesis' The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway should not be considered prog, considering the majority of the album is filled with 2, 3 and 4 minute songs). Harum is about as sophisticated in their lyrics and compositions as anything released in that time period. This is certainly cemented in Procol Harum Live: In Concert with the Edmonton Symphony Orchestra, which is one of the greatest prog live albums ever released.
|
||
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
||
richardh
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 27932 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Weirdly The Nice released Ars Longa Vita Brevis the same week as Shine On Brightly and did much the same things that you describe. Procol were certainly one of the founding fathers along with The Nice, King Crimson and arguably Cream as well who did the 3-peice thing before ELP. As mentioned above, Live With The Edmonton Philharmonic is one of the very best live albums ever released any genre. Important band.
|
||
ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11415 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I've always thought Procul Harum rather unjustly neglected when it comes to discussing the 'great and the good' in Prog's lineage. Although it could be argued their output became more conservative over the years, the first three albums (and throw in the orchestral live recording from '72 while we're at it) are as prescient, adventurous and innovative as any of their contemporaries. It's also worth noting that Gary Brooker has that rare vocal quality shared by Chris Farlowe, John Fogerty, Steve Winwood, John Hiatt, Van Morrisson, Dr John and Eric Burdon (i.e. gammon that sound black) Perhaps the timbre of Mr Brooker's delivery lends Procul Harum's music a soulful R'n'B/Pop texture we don't readily associate with 1st Gen Progressive Rock and tend to dismiss it as some sort of weird corollary to 'blue eyed soul' (brown eyed Prog?)
|
||
Boojieboy
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 02 2016 Location: Earth Status: Offline Points: 649 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Procol's one of my favorite bands. They definitely had some prog songs, but much of their material is like one level removed from prog. The delivery has been much like straightforward rock, but with little proggy elements here and there. It's sort of fun to look for those amongst their music.
Much of their best songs are scattered through the entire catalog (especially from A Salty Dog through Something Magic), but for albums in entirety, favorites are Grand Hotel and Something Magic. Gary Brooker is one of those highly underrated musicians who hasn't gotten the recognition he deserves.
Edited by Boojieboy - December 23 2021 at 10:30 |
||
Jacob Schoolcraft
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 22 2021 Location: NJ Status: Offline Points: 1066 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I found certain tracks from Grand Hotel to be more in the style of Progressive Rock. Particularly "Fires (which burnt brightly)" felt stylistically based on what Renaissance were doing on albums like Turn Of The Cards and Ashes Are Burning. Not only because of the vocals but the piano and the drumming. There were other songs from Grand Hotel that came across with a Prog vibe more than a straight up Rock vibe. The song "Grand Hotel " sounded off with dynamics and felt epic and theatrical not unlike early 10CC ( one night in Paris) or at least the chord progression Gary Brooker plays on the piano and perhaps if Godley & Creme were to sing Grand Hotel instead of Gary Brooker it might be more telling in that sense of comparison. Idk? I'm guessing it's simply the Classical oriented style often injected into Procol Harum music that leaves this impression on me? It's certainly not the influence of Blues which I hear in their music and even though Blues can be played in a more Jazzy progressive style it is obviously not Progressive Rock to the human ear ( generally speaking), so for me personally it's quite difficult to categorize this band because in reality they have recorded songs for years that were straight up 4/4 Rock songs. Perhaps they often recorded songs that came across eclectic and partly Symphonic sounding on albums like A Salty Dog and it's very difficult for me to put a stamp on them or nail their style within a specific category. Especially when they play numbers like "Whiskey Train" LOL! But seriously, I've started listening to Procol Harum since the 60's and I still don't know how to properly place them in a category. They are from that particular period in time when bands like Family, The Nice, and Rare Bird were touring Europe. It's very conceivable that musicians like Tony Banks, Anthony Phillips, and Steve Hackett were perhaps watching these bands perform back then and Tony Banks in particular choosing not to copy them too much or be too obviously influenced by them , but focusing more on a style that became strictly known as Progressive Rock in those days. Which meant to me personally leaving Blues and straight ahead Rock beats behind. It's all very confusing to me, but in the early days of eclectic bands like Procol Harum and Family were somehow blending different styles of music to form composition. It wasn't exactly like the Progressive Rock style that developed on In The Court Of The Crimson King or Trespass, but it did contain elements that produced an eclectic or Art Rock style in the 60s and the beginning of the 70s. I've always found it quite baffling.
|
||
Philchem8
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 12 2021 Location: Ottawa Status: Offline Points: 231 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
|
I had almost given up on this discussion given the relatively low response, but seeing the two great comments just posted today gave me some encouragement. The low number of commenta probably has something to do with the fact that many people may not see Procol Harum as a fully prog band, something I can see as well. They indeed have many songs that arguably have minimal prog elements. But I agree with those who have commented that they were nevertheless an important influence on the development of prog rock, particularly with their first 3 albums and the first live album. The A Salty Dog album experimented with many styles and saw the band at their creative peak in my view. Afterwards, Matthew Fisher left, Robin Trower's guitar became the dominant instrument on the 2 next studio albums, which were good but more straight rock & roll/R&B (Whiskey Train as mentioned was an example of this phase). When Trower left, Procol Harum then did Grand Hotel, which was maybe their most prog album (though in my view not their most creative, and by then other prog bands were doing more innovative stuff). Then, for their next album, Exotic Birds and Fruits, the keyboards returned as a dominant instrument, including for the wonderful tune, As Strong as Samson, but it would be a bit of a stretch to consider this album and the ones that followed prog.
The comparisons with The Moody Blues, The Nice and Family are quite appropriate in my view. Though their music was quite different, all were among the first to integrate various musical/classical elements in rock before prog rock became better defined. However, for some reason, I still perceive that PH were not given as much recognition for their prog rock contribution. Witness Prog Magazine's poll of the 100 best prog rock artists, as voted by prog readers in 2015. Procol does not even appear there, though both The Nice and the Moodies do (though the Moodies were probably more mainstream than early Procol). PH are actually more popular and well known than many of the bands on that top 100 list, so I think it's just that many prog-heads just don't really consider them to be true prog. PH does however just make it on the Ultimate Classic Rock list of the 50 best prog artists, which is something. Incidentally, another band that I recently discovered were prog rock pioneers in their way was the first lineup of Renaissance. I was familiar and really like the material of the post-1971 lineup, but was not aware that the original lineup was quite good as well and actually more progressive in some ways, even if they ended up getting little recognition. I can now understand why they called themselves Renaissance. Considering the first of their 2 albums was made before the release of The Court of the Crimson King, the integration of classical influences and complex compositions were quite advanced for the time. |
||
Philchem8
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 12 2021 Location: Ottawa Status: Offline Points: 231 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I forgot to mention, in response to the point by Jacob schoolcraft regarding Procol's possible influence on Genesis, I did hear an interview with Tony Banks where he mentions that PH was one of the bands they were listening to at the time and suggested they were an influence, among others. I would also not be surprised if Keith Reid's style of melancholic and existential lyrics had some influence on King Crimson lyricist, Pete Sinfield.
|
||
Hugh Manatee
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 07 2021 Location: The Barricades Status: Offline Points: 1587 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
The line up for the those first two albums reformed as Illusion in 1976. If you like Renaissance, then Illusions work might be worth checking out as well.
|
||
I should have been a pair of ragged claws
Scuttling across the floors of uncertain seas |
||
Jacob Schoolcraft
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 22 2021 Location: NJ Status: Offline Points: 1066 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Wow Philchem8! Fantastic post! Very informative and I loved reading it. Interesting history indeed!
|
||
Easy Money
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10616 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Don't be discouraged, Procol Harum was a very talented band and their album "Shine on Brightly" was an absolute sonic eye opener when it first came out.
|
||
Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Online Points: 65233 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
A jewel of a band. |
||
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
|
||
Philchem8
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 12 2021 Location: Ottawa Status: Offline Points: 231 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Yeah, certainly agree Procol Harum was a great band...or I should stay "is" as I understand another tour is in the cards, Covid-19 permitting, though Gary Brooker is the only remaining member of the classic lineups. And Shine On Brightly was the album that first got me into the band. I was fortunate to see PH live twice in the late 90s and early 2000s. They put on a great show and Shine On Brightly was one of the songs they played. Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. Some excellent points were made.
|
||
Philchem8
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 12 2021 Location: Ottawa Status: Offline Points: 231 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Thanks Hugh, I was not aware. I'll make sure to check out Illusions. Ironic that the original Renaissance had to use another name to operate under. I also find it strange that the same band on paper had 2 totally different sets of musicians. Makes you think about about what is the existential nature of a band. |
||
moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17484 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Hi, And it was Keith Relf's band, after he left The Yardbirds. The band also featured his wife singing, and she continued the band later after he passed away. All of those albums could be said to be classically oriented, but had the ability, style and gumption to do its own thing, and it might fir in a discussion of the previously mentioned bands, with the exception that this version of Renaissance, never really got the chance and no many folks even bothered playing their stuff, next to the "hits". It made it a lot easier to see where the music scene was going, and where the fans were being steered into!
|
||
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
||
kenethlevine
Special Collaborator Prog-Folk Team Joined: December 06 2006 Location: New England Status: Offline Points: 8950 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
big fan of the Illusion version of Renaissance (as well as the Haslam version). Don't forget James McCarty who helped put together the later version. He also has done a couple of really good solo albums, "Out of the Dark" and "Sitting on the Edge of Time", as well as an album called Renaissance Illusion (classifified with Illusion on PA) in 2001 that sounds like an Illusion album though Jane doesn't sing lead. Confused yet?
|
||
Matti
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 15 2005 Location: Finland Status: Offline Points: 2117 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Just saw this thread. I very much agree on all said here, and in my own PH reviews I have expressed a pity for their low visibility in ProgArchives. One of the most influential bands in the proto prog era of the 60's.
My fave album is Grand Hotel, but the jewels are scattered on several albums that also tend to contain less interesting (and certainly less progressive) stuff, IMHO. |
||
kenethlevine
Special Collaborator Prog-Folk Team Joined: December 06 2006 Location: New England Status: Offline Points: 8950 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
My fave is the first...got me into serious music. All other albums have good highlights, with Grand Hotel probably second best
|
||
Heart of the Matter
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 01 2020 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 3113 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
In Concert with the Edmonton Orchestra broadened what was to be expected from a live record in a glorious way.
|
||
Sean Trane
Special Collaborator Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20239 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
As I'm really not interested in post Edmonton era albums (could we call this Harum Mk 2?)I own only three Prool albums: The debut (with Whiter Shade on it), Shine On and the Edmonton one. I also have a CDr compilation with the best tracks from the other three Trower era albums. Tracks I consider full prog: 1. A Whiter Shade of Pale (4:04) 5. Cerdes (Outside the Gates Of) (5:04) 7. Conquistador (2:38) 10. Repent Walpurgis (5:04) 3. Skip Softly (My Moonbeams) (3:47) 7. In Held Twas in I (17:31) 1. A Salty Dog (4:41) 2. The Milk of Human Kindness (3:47) 7. Wreck of the Hesperus (3:49) 8. All This and More (3:52) 9. Crucifiction Lane (5:03) 2. The Dead Man's Dream (4:46) 5. About To Die (3:35) 6. Barnyard Story (2:46) 8. Whaling Stories (7:06) 1. Simple Sister (5:48) 6. Song For A Dreamer (5:36) 7. Playmate Of The Mouth (5:03) there might be more "prog" tracks on later albums, but I don't really have the patience for it.
I've always preferred the Ex-Yardbirds Renaissance and Illusion to the Haslam/Dunford one. |
||
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
||
Post Reply | Page 123> |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |