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Easy Money View Drop Down
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Points: 10679 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2021 at 18:19
^ At least one sentence up there is incorrect, possibly more, but Soviet troops did move into Poland in 1981 to protect the soviets dominance over Poland. They brought on martial law and the photos of tanks rolling down the streets of Poland are well documented as well as the recollections from those that lived there.
Your attempts to white wash the soviet past does not help the cause of your current propaganda.

Edited by Easy Money - December 17 2021 at 18:22
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Points: 1017 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2021 at 05:38
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ At least one sentence up there is incorrect, possibly more, but Soviet troops did move into Poland in 1981 to protect the soviets dominance over Poland. They brought on martial law and the photos of tanks rolling down the streets of Poland are well documented as well as the recollections from those that lived there.
Your attempts to white wash the soviet past does not help the cause of your current propaganda.
 

I definitely made one clear mistake by writing that in 1956 Brezhnev ruled the USSR, it was Khrushchev. I'm sorry, now I've changed the respective sentence in that post. 

I'm not a professional historian, but I have to admit that there was a Soviet military presence in Poland, Soviet military bases at the time. In times of martial law they might increase the number of tanks or soldiers located inside the bases. But the Soviet invasion as such did not happen. The situation was fixed by Poles themselves with the assistance of Catholic Church and commonsense. You may read it yourself in Wikipedia, for example. 

Propaganda pretends to say that everything was alright, so it would be great to return to those times and places. At least, this is how I understand propaganda. I'm not saying that everything was alright. I'm not calling for return. I'm stating the situation was ambiguous and must be seen in the context of a time and a place. Even in the case of Stalin's Great Terror of 1937-1938 - what was that? It was a very predictable historical process: like 15 years before a bloody Civil war had ended. 10-15 years after a bloody Civil war are a typical time term for bloody purges, as I heard from a professional historian. This regularity happened not only in the USSR, he said. 

I'm not whitewashing anything, I'm not saying it was great. I'm also not saying Vietnam war was great, nor numerous attempts to murder Fidel Castro, by the way. 
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Points: 1017 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2021 at 06:07
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

It's important that both sides understand the multiple points of view. I hear the American point of view, since that's where I live.  That said, I can somewhat fathom how Russia feels about NATO/American weapons on their border. Moscow is 300 miles from the Ukraine border... American/NATO ships on war-exorcises in the Black Sea.  How would America feel if China and Russia ran joint war-exercises in The Gulf of Mexico?  Too close for comfort.   

Speaking of France.  Earlier this week, Putin discussed the Ukraine situation- on the phone- with Macron and Sauli Niinistö (Finland). Putin claimed, 
"Ukraine is being pumped up with modern weapons, which poses a direct threat to Russia’s security.” 

I wonder if Macron will try to sedate the Ukrainian situation? Play the peacemaker.  Perhaps, Macron/France felt torpedoed when Australia recently cancelled a multi-billion dollar deal to buy French submarines.  Australia, then cut a deal with America and UK for submarines. 
 

I wouldn't tell whose views are universally right and who's wrong. It depends on the point of the observing person. Like in good old Theory of Relativity, you know. 

I may only insist that the USA is (West) Roman Empire and Russia is (East Roman) Byzantine Empire. They are in fact in reality two parts of the same body. They are two brothers or two sisters if you like. The West is pragmatical and materialist, the East is mystical and fatalist. You can't change your brother, it's his nature. 

In particular, the American dream needs no explanations - everybody knows what it is. The Russian dream is perhaps best depicted in the classic Russian folk tales like At The Pike's Behest - in short, the lazy loser gets it all out of nothing... 

The Eastern way relies on the will of fate, God, gods, angels, saints, spiritually-enlightened ones (or would-be ones). Even in the officially atheist Communist symbolics there were flame, fire, stars, image of an all-mighty the wisest of all who ever lived perpetually-young Lenin. The heroes that died for the cause of the Communism "will live in our hearts, in our memory forever". In the west died heroic soldiers are associated with flowers, in Russia it was all about flame, fire, struggle, fight. And, obligatorily, living in our hearts forever. Mystical symbols galore. 

The Eastern way is always more ascetic, associated with an understanding of necessity of suffering to become more perfect. In the west they'd say comfort helps make your work and rest better, in the east suffering makes you holy. 

Even the twins have different tastes and behaviour. Simply, the two sides have to talk to each other constantly. But if they did so, secret services and militaries on both sides would have to find another job. They can't allow that!


Edited by Woon Deadn - December 18 2021 at 12:38
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Points: 3584 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2021 at 10:11
Originally posted by Woon Deadn Woon Deadn wrote:

....

I may only insist that the USA is (West) Roman Empire and Russia is (East Roman) Byzantine Empire. They are in fact in reality two parts of the same body. They are two brothers or two sisters if you like. The West is pragmatical and materialist, the East is mystical and fatalist.

....




That sounds funny, but Kremlin in their propaganda uses this concept as well :))


US is a world power, Russia - big Eurasian gas station , drilling holes in their land and selling oil and gas to the world. True, huge Eurasian gas station owns nuclear missiles, and uses their power as main argumentation in foreign affairs, but same does Northern Korea (the only difference they have no oil and gas for sale)

The only mysticism of modern Russia is that that after they killed their tsar and his children, they are ruled by KGB mafia with some assistance of Orthodox church and thin middle-class layer did the deal with ruling chunta do not participate in politics at all in exchange of possibility to receive some part of petro-dollars :)
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Points: 10679 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2021 at 10:24


This is a picture of the soviet tanks that supposedly did not invade Polish cities.

The picture is from this article on martial law in Poland 1981 to 1983.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law_in_Poland

Edited by Easy Money - December 18 2021 at 10:27
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Points: 15344 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2021 at 10:50
Originally posted by Woon Deadn Woon Deadn wrote:

Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

It's important that both sides understand the multiple points of view. I hear the American point of view, since that's where I live.  That said, I can somewhat fathom how Russia feels about NATO/American weapons on their border. Moscow is 300 miles from the Ukraine border... American/NATO ships on war-exorcises in the Black Sea.  How would America feel if China and Russia ran joint war-exercises in The Gulf of Mexico?  Too close for comfort.   

Speaking of France.  Earlier this week, Putin discussed the Ukraine situation- on the phone- with Macron and Sauli Niinistö (Finland). Putin claimed, 
"Ukraine is being pumped up with modern weapons, which poses a direct threat to Russia’s security.” 

I wonder if Macron will try to sedate the Ukrainian situation? Play the peacemaker.  Perhaps, Macron/France felt torpedoed when Australia recently cancelled a multi-billion dollar deal to buy French submarines.  Australia, then cut a deal with America and UK for submarines. 
 

I wouldn't tell whose views are universally right and who's wrong. It depends on the point of the observing person. Like in good old Theory of Relativity, you know. 

I may only insist that the USA is (West) Roman Empire and Russia is (East Roman) Byzantine Empire. They are in fact in reality two parts of the same body. They are two brothers or two sisters if you like. The West is pragmatical and materialist, the East is mystical and fatalist. You can't change your brother, it's his nature. 

In particular, the American dream needs no explanations - everybody knows what it is. The Russian dream is perhaps best depicted in the classic Russian folk tales like At The Pike's Behest - in short, the lazy loser gets it all out of nothing... 

The Eastern way relies on the will of fate, God, gods, angels, saints, spiritually-enlightened ones (or would-be ones). Even in the officially atheist Communist symbolics there were flame, fire, stars, image of an all-mighty the wisest of all who ever lived perpetually-young Lenin. The heroes that died for the cause of the Communism "will live in our hearts, in our memory forever". In the west died heroic soldiers are associated with flowers, in Russia it was all about flame, fire, struggle, fight. And, obligatorily, living in our hearts forever. Mystical symbols galore. 

The Eastern way is always more ascetic, associated with an understanding of necessity of suffering to become more perfect. In the west they'd say comfort helps make your work and rest better, in the east suffering make you holy. 

Even the twins have different tastes and behaviour. Simply, the two sides have to talk to each other constantly. But if they did so, secret services and militaries on both sides would have to find another job. They can't allow that!


You have hit the nail on the head on many fronts. I have come to the same conclusions really.

Firstly everyone should be careful to distinguish between the historical perspective and underlying culture of the populace as opposed to the occupying governmental forces de jour.

When i visited Russia, Ukraine and Belarus years ago it was a shocking revelation as to how much the mystical aspects of spirituality and religion projected through the Orthodox branch of Christianity kept an occupied population in unison. Like the old adage of even the hardest stone can be eroded by water over time, so too was the Soviet atheism in response to the undercurrents of spiritual belief systems.

You're also right on about the USA and the West in general being direct descendants of the Roman Empire. This is very much represented in the legal system. Lawful and legal are not the same thing. Legal refers to statutory law, the law of commerce and also called the rules of civil procedure. The world civil in legal terms refers to the legal system of ancient Rome and administered by the Vatican. The west very much remains subject to these hidden structures lurking just beneath the surface.

The two parts of the same body rings true as well since we are now basically living on Earth Inc, a consolidated corporate conglomerate that operates under these statutory principles also known as the Unified Commercial Code (UCC) which apparently trumps many (if not all) local laws due to imposed treaties and the like. The final push for a global new world order is currently underway where any remaining differences will be..... terminated.

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Points: 1017 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2021 at 12:31
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:



This is a picture of the soviet tanks that supposedly did not invade Polish cities.

The picture is from this article on martial law in Poland 1981 to 1983.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law_in_Poland
 


Sir, with all my true respect, did you try to read the caption below the photo?.. 

It says, "Polish T-55 tanks enter the town of Zbąszyń while moving east towards Poznań, 13 December 1981"... 

Like, uhm, what do you want to prove? That the USSR committed a big notorious terrible ugly crime by keeping Poland under its control? Yes! I've already written here and may repeat as many times as necessary that the USSR was inimitable, the rest of the countries imitating its system are puny parodies. Communist Poland is an oxymoron. Will Russia pay compensations to Poland akin to what Germany did? No. Why? Because the nazis, and it's not a secret, hated Poles, the USSR did not hate Poland, did not want to kill its population or turn its population into labour slaves as such. The USSR needed a living shield and a worldwide prestige. Nobody banned Polish language or Polish culture. Nobody in the USSR was planning to settle Russians in Poland as the masters that would be served by Polish slaves. 

Do I feel sorry for such behaviour of my homecountry where I was born? Yes, I feel sorry. Should I go to Poland and there make public performances of bowing deep before the video camera? Should I cry with tears on Polish TV? Perhaps. Anyway, it was just how empires treat the smaller countries. Nothing personal, simply business. We all know very well that Stalin personally hated independent Poland - I don't think anybody else in the post-Stalin Soviet elite thought quite that way.


Edited by Woon Deadn - December 18 2021 at 12:34
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Points: 10679 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2021 at 12:38
^ The T 55 was a soviet tank made in Poland and elsewhere. The Poland they refer to in the caption is soviet controlled Poland, not the Polish people. You are not very knowledgeable about the era of history you are trying to whitewash.
Your sarcasm about an apology does not show much character on your part.

Edited by Easy Money - December 18 2021 at 12:41
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Points: 10679 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2021 at 12:44
So you actually think the Polish people turned a bunch of tanks on themselves, that would be about the dumbest thing in this thread yet.
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Points: 1017 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2021 at 13:22
Originally posted by snobb snobb wrote:

Originally posted by Woon Deadn Woon Deadn wrote:

....

I may only insist that the USA is (West) Roman Empire and Russia is (East Roman) Byzantine Empire. They are in fact in reality two parts of the same body. They are two brothers or two sisters if you like. The West is pragmatical and materialist, the East is mystical and fatalist.

....




That sounds funny, but Kremlin in their propaganda uses this concept as well :))


US is a world power, Russia - big Eurasian gas station , drilling holes in their land and selling oil and gas to the world. True, huge Eurasian gas station owns nuclear missiles, and uses their power as main argumentation in foreign affairs, but same does Northern Korea (the only difference they have no oil and gas for sale)

The only mysticism of modern Russia is that that after they killed their tsar and his children, they are ruled by KGB mafia with some assistance of Orthodox church and thin middle-class layer did the deal with ruling chunta do not participate in politics at all in exchange of possibility to receive some part of petro-dollars :)

 


Speaking of good old Theory of Relativity, once again. Einstein was a genius, relativity applies to a lot of things. 

How does you measure world powers? By money? OK. That's reasonable. I mean, really reasonable. 

The mysticism of Russia gets exposed wider the farther you want to explore it. In particular, the last Russian emperor Nicholas the 2nd desperately wanted a boy child, they only had daughters. He and his wife LIKELY asked for a help from famous French occultist Papus, among others - notice that the emperor and his wife were Orthodox Christians, their religion considered occultism a major sin... As the result of their prayers or maybe activities of Papus, the son was born. The hemophiliac son... Isn't there a lesson in that you shall not pray to Christian God and beg occultists for help simultaneously? You shall not pray to all possible gods in search of happiness at the same time. What else kind of mysticism do you want me to demonstrate? Can I show you angels flying above the Kremlin? No, I can't. I have no idea whether they fly above it or not. 

Everybody sees what he/she wants to see. If in your eyes there is no difference between North Korea and Russia - no problem.
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2021 at 13:39
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ The T 55 was a soviet tank made in Poland and elsewhere. The Poland they refer to in the caption is soviet controlled Poland, not the Polish people. You are not very knowledgeable about the era of history you are trying to whitewash.
Your sarcasm about an apology does not show much character on your part.

  

How many countries has the Untied States attacked and bombed since 2000?

How many countries has Russia attacked and bombed since 2000? 

Since you're a fact checking historian, perhaps you can give us the facts.  
I'm sure the United States would never interfere with Ukraine.



I don't think the United States or NATO can take the moral high ground.  I'm not saying Russia has the moral high ground either.  My point?   

Russia feels attacked on all fronts by the USA/NATO.  Media, sanctions, and the world's most powerful  military (America/NATO) threatening Russia's border. America did not like it when Russia put missiles in Cuba.  It's not a matter of morals.  It's a matter of National Security.  What would America do if the shoe was on the other foot?  


Edited by omphaloskepsis - December 18 2021 at 13:53
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Points: 1017 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2021 at 13:45
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

So you actually think the Polish people turned a bunch of tanks on themselves, that would be about the dumbest thing in this thread yet.
 

I expected, we're on the prog forum where I don't have to explain basic things. When the nazis controlled Poland in the 1939-1945 there indeed were German nazi commanders, not sure about the lower ranks, but the high ranks were certainly Germans from the nazi Germany. If they turned their tanks against the Poles you knew it was some Fritz Schmeiner-Schwarzwalder that ordered it. In the Soviet-controlled Poland ALL elites were Polish and only Polish. Those were Poles, some of them definitely made their careers, some honestly believed in the Communist ideology. They had been born there, studied there, lived there, served there. 

You probably think that each and every citizen of e.g. the USSR hoped for its country's regime to end as quickly as possible. No, and I've already told you that consumerism killed the USSR, not striving for freedom, not fear of the KGB because nobody was afraid of the KGB in 1989-1991, at all. 

You may even listen to this actually very anti-Soviet former Soviet citizen on the topic: 



Similarly many Poles that had decent positions, decent offices or believed in Communism - they were also Poles. We may think they were b*****ds or fools, yet they were Polish b*****ds or Polish fools. 

The tanks T-55 were of course made in the USSR or at least designed in the USSR. Poland had its own army. They bought those tanks from the USSR or produced them themselves. And so?

Again, we are standing on different observing points and thus what looks like a fireball to me looks like a flying heap of feces to you. Whether it's this or that we may never know until the whole universe stops. Then both of us will see what was that. I however can suppose that it's both fireball and a heap of feces. 


Edited by Woon Deadn - December 18 2021 at 14:02
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Points: 10679 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2021 at 13:49
^ Still, you saying the Polish people used tanks on themselves was the dumbest thing in this thread yet. Your can believe your own nonsense if you want to, but it is nonsense.
Just finished off a delicious Zywiec. Love that Polish beer.

Edited by Easy Money - December 18 2021 at 13:57
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Points: 1017 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2021 at 14:14
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ Still, you saying the Polish people used tanks on themselves was the dumbest thing in this thread yet. Your can believe your own nonsense if you want to, but it is nonsense.
Just finished off a delicious Zywiec. Love that Polish beer.

Was Joseph McCarthy an American citizen? Was Ted Bundy an American? You may say Ted Bundy was in alliance with Satan or in alliance with Evil. But he was an American! He used various tools on Americans. 

Some Polish people used tanks on their compatriots - and by the way in Prague' 1968 it was East Germans that were the most enthusiastic, not the USSR. East Germany was afraid of the same events to happen in their country in case Czechoslovakia uprising succeeded. 

I have nothing against Polish people. And I really sometimes think it would be great to appear on their TV and apologise while bowing down and crying with tears. There was no sarcasm in my words. But it's all a cheap theatre, I think. I actually believe in some sort of karma and I understand that the Polish state of the previous centuries probably oppressed its ethnic minorities and did other bad things, too. 


Edited by Woon Deadn - December 18 2021 at 14:30
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Points: 4234 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2021 at 14:16
Originally posted by Woon Deadn Woon Deadn wrote:

the USSR did not hate Poland, did not want to kill its population
Originally posted by Woon Deadn Woon Deadn wrote:

Nobody banned Polish language or Polish culture.
Originally posted by Woon Deadn Woon Deadn wrote:

Nobody in the USSR was planning to settle Russians in Poland
Originally posted by Woon Deadn Woon Deadn wrote:

The USSR needed a living shield and a worldwide prestige.
Originally posted by Woon Deadn Woon Deadn wrote:

Three Baltic countries were needed by the USSR because at the time a lot of European countries had pro-nazi, pro-fascist views/power. The USSR understood that the pro-nazi governments right near Leningrad would be too dangerous for national security. National security is a magical word combination that makes miracles come true...

I'm sure Germany in 1940 felt concerned by the possibility of the Low Countries allowing Allied forces on its territory, and having pro-British democracies right near the Ruhr area was certainly a threat to national security. Does that mean they were justified in occupying my country?
Originally posted by Woon Deadn Woon Deadn wrote:

Do I feel sorry for such behaviour of my homecountry where I was born? Yes, I feel sorry. Should I go to Poland and there make public performances of bowing deep before the video camera? Should I cry with tears on Polish TV? Perhaps.

No one here has had any issue with your nationality or has held you personally accountable for the crimes of the USSR simply because you were born there; it's the fact that you're trying to make excuses for these crimes that people are taking issue with.
Originally posted by Woon Deadn Woon Deadn wrote:

The situation with Crimea is very different. It was "gifted" (illegally even by vague Soviet law, because at the time of voting there were no enough voters in the government in Moscow) to Ukraine by Nikita Khrushchev. This region traditionally considered itself... non-Ukrainian. There were Crimean Tatars that naturally leant towards Turkey and other Turkic lands outside - Kiev and Crimean Tatars mutually... not quite liked each otherBig smile. There was also a big Russian minority - that is, majority
Again, the comparison with Nazi Germany's annexation of the Sudetenland applies here. What sort of precedent do you think it would set if countries were allowed to just unilaterally take territory by force when they feel that it belongs to them?
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

I can somewhat fathom how Russia feels about NATO/American weapons on their border. Moscow is 300 miles from the Ukraine border... American/NATO ships on war-exorcises in the Black Sea.  How would America feel if China and Russia ran joint war-exercises in The Gulf of Mexico?  Too close for comfort.
No one in their right mind honestly believes that a NATO invasion of Russia is in any way a plausible scenario. It's the threat from Russia that these countries are afraid of and because of which they continue to seek military aid from NATO and the USA, which they are in their complete right to do as sovereign nations.
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Points: 10679 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2021 at 14:21
Re Woon Deadn: No Polish people used tanks on their compatriots, pure lies and propaganda.

Edited by Easy Money - December 18 2021 at 14:22
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Points: 10679 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2021 at 14:26
Instead of you telling lies about the Polish people, lets let the Polish people speak for themselves:
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Points: 15151 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2021 at 15:15
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Re Woon Deadn: No Polish people used tanks on their compatriots, pure lies and propaganda.

I have no interest whatsoever to defend the USSR, but for sure there were Polish, Czech, Hungarian, German communists doing the Soviet's job in their countries. I can't see how you can deny that.
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Points: 10679 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2021 at 15:21
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Re Woon Deadn: No Polish people used tanks on their compatriots, pure lies and propaganda.

I have no interest whatsoever to defend the USSR, but for sure there were Polish, Czech, Hungarian, German communists doing the Soviet's job in their countries. I can't see how you can deny that.
Sure, there are those who will play the other side, but by and large, the Polish people were being dominated by the soviets. Martial law was enforced by the soviets, not the Polish people.
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2021 at 15:41
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

I can somewhat fathom how Russia feels about NATO/American weapons on their border. Moscow is 300 miles from the Ukraine border... American/NATO ships on war-exorcises in the Black Sea.  How would America feel if China and Russia ran joint war-exercises in The Gulf of Mexico?  Too close for comfort.
No one in their right mind honestly believes that a NATO invasion of Russia is in any way a plausible scenario. It's the threat from Russia that these countries are afraid of and because of which they continue to seek military aid from NATO and the USA, which they are in their complete right to do as sovereign nations.
[/QUOTE]

No one in their right mind honestly believe that Russia would invade America during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Russian invading America was not a plausible scenario. 

Likewise, it's the threat from USA/NATO that Russia is afraid of and because of which Russia continues to seek Legal promises from NATO and the USA. It's Russia's complete right as a sovereign nation to demand legal assurances from NATO and America. 
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