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Topic ClosedRussia/Ukraine tensions - Any concern?

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Woon Deadn View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2021 at 09:29
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by Woon Deadn Woon Deadn wrote:


An average old enough Pole undoubtedly dislike Russia, the USSR. The roots of mutual enmity are centuries deep. First of all, Poland was strictly Catholic country. Second, it was a typical Capitalist democratic western style place: its kings had constant conflicts with the noblemen, a democracy that is. Russia is Eastern Orthodox Christian since 988 AD. Also Russia used to rely on a centrified "vertical of power" with "a kind czar and his evil noblemen". 

Yet one shouldn't generalise too much... I have a very good Latvian friend, one Polish, and another from Czech Republic. They're all dead against Soviet rule (and none of them is orthodox, two atheist one catholic, guess who Wink) but have a big love for Russian culture, literature, music.
 

I rather meant, dislike the Russian and Soviet policies, worldview, political activities. However, you're right - I must be more moderate and correct in my statements. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2021 at 09:56
I was glad when I traveled in Europe that people could see me as a person separate from US government war policies and social injustice in the states. Out of hundreds of people I met, I only recall one person who shunned me for being from Texas at that time.

Its the same to me regarding the oppressive soviet government in Eastern Europe which I witnessed first hand and have also collected first hand accounts from others in East European bloc countries. I would never hold the actions of the government against the people of Russia.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2021 at 16:21
Originally posted by snobb snobb wrote:

nah, I've been a regular in Den Helder (and passing Alkmaar by train from Amsterdam) between 2002 and summer of 2004. Worked for Shell as sub-contractor from Den Helder heliport. Haven't been there since then though


Yup, the refinery and related activities is the onlly other thing you'd be heading for in Den Helder.
Many Dutch call the place the armpit of the NL (crime-ridden city), but its geography is interesting, with the ferry to the Frisian islands.

As for Ukrainians, there are dozens of illegals in North Holland, working as cleaning ladies or gardeners.


Toronto had a pretty big Ukrainian diaspora, and some of them were good buddies, but generally the girls/sisters were reserved for Ukrainian boys.
Winnipeg - Manitoba - had a few of them... Chicago had a lot of them.
In the 80's plenty of them bought jeans and clothes to send them to the USSR.

they kept doing it for years & years, so I suppose the parcels ^passed thru the soviet customs & arrived to destination


Edited by Sean Trane - December 10 2021 at 16:22
let's just stay above the moral melee
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2021 at 09:07
While we're on the subject of Ukrainian diaspora, there are about 60,000+ living in the Philadelphia area. When I lived there over 30 years ago, they predominantly lived in the northeast area of the city (particularly in the neighborhoods of Castor Gardens, Rhawnhurst, and Bustleton). I remember seeing some Ukrainian language newspapers on some of the street corners. I've been to the Ukrainian History and Education Center in Somerset, N.J., though that was actually for a genealogical conference on Polish genealogy in the Galicia region. I don't have any Ukrainian ancestry, but I do have Polish ancestors that came from two small villages, Borek Wielki and Krzywa, in Województwo podkarpackie in the southeastern corner of Poland. They left the area when it was still under Austrian rule in between the late 1890s and early 1910s. UHEC hosted this conference because some Ukrainians in the U.S. from that Ukrainian-Polish borderlands area also have some branches in their families that are Polish.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2021 at 12:16
My opinion-

1. As long as Ukraine does not join NATO.
2. As long as NATO/America does not install missiles in Ukraine. 
3. As long as NATO/America does not put Troops on the ground in Ukraine.
4. As long as Ukraine does not attack Donbas,

Russia will not attack Ukraine. 


Edited by omphaloskepsis - December 11 2021 at 13:00
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2021 at 15:42
Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

While we're on the subject of Ukrainian diaspora, there are about 60,000+ living in the Philadelphia area. When I lived there over 30 years ago, they predominantly lived in the northeast area of the city (particularly in the neighborhoods of Castor Gardens, Rhawnhurst, and Bustleton). I remember seeing some Ukrainian language newspapers on some of the street corners. I've been to the Ukrainian History and Education Center in Somerset, N.J., though that was actually for a genealogical conference on Polish genealogy in the Galicia region. I don't have any Ukrainian ancestry, but I do have Polish ancestors that came from two small villages, Borek Wielki and Krzywa, in Województwo podkarpackie in the southeastern corner of Poland. They left the area when it was still under Austrian rule in between the late 1890s and early 1910s. UHEC hosted this conference because some Ukrainians in the U.S. from that Ukrainian-Polish borderlands area also have some branches in their families that are Polish.
 

I as the Ukrainian myself, currently living in Ukraine, see the biggest problem in quite that that before the 2014 events Western Ukraine, Eastern/Southern Ukraine and moderate (that is, the most sane) Central Ukraine somehow managed to keep the balance. Even when/if the political power shifted the leverages left and right, the media, the ordinary people, the popular showmen, the sportsmen managed to repair the machine. It was Euromaidan that broke the balancing mechanics, not going to discuss here who's wrong and who's right. Just giving a fact. 

You may easily notice that if there are people in the USA or the UK or elsewhere in the world who consider themselves Ukrainians, Ukrainian diaspora abroad, I give 95% chance they or their ancestors came from one out of five westernmost Ukrainian provinces: Lviv (Lvov), Ternopil, Ivano-Frankivsk (aka Stanislav), Volyn, Bukovyna (Chernivtsi) ones. These 5 borderland provinces. There are 24 provinces in current Ukraine, then... 

Take Candice Night - a Jewish woman, her granma was from Odessa, she has never heard any words about Ukraine from her granma. Odessa is the south of Ukraine. Candice's granma considered herself Russian.

Take Walter Pallance - yes, his forefathers came to the USA from those now-westernmost Ukrainian border provinces: his father from Ternopil province, his mother was from Lviv. He's a handsome and brave guy. I have no problem with him or his identification. He considered himself Ukrainian. But I also have no problem with Candice Night and her identification as A Russian Jew from Odessa, Ukraine... 

The biggest problem of the modern Ukraine is to me that the views of the inhabitants of 5 provinces are somehow considered more right, more accurate, more patriotic than the views of the rest of the population. Why? Because the rest of Ukraine kinda used to be Russified for centuries. Ehm, and those 5 provinces in return kinda were Polonised and Romania-ised and Hungarised for centuries - why is it better in terms of looking for a clear Ukrainian identity? If we're building a truly Ukrainian Ukraine, let's then amalgamate, calculate the average number, take from both sources or simply create something new. Instead, only the will, the traditions, the language of the western regions are considered tru-style nowadays. Are you going to tell me that the Polish rule over western Ukrainians was less de-Ukrainising than the Russian rule over the eastern part of Ukraine? Both Russia and Poland made their best to incorporate Ukrainians in their empires without a trace. Why should Polish influences be more preferable than Russian, in this respect?


Edited by Woon Deadn - December 11 2021 at 15:45
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 12 2021 at 03:51


Originally posted by Woon Deadn Woon Deadn wrote:


You may easily notice that if there are people in the USA or the UK or elsewhere in the world who consider themselves Ukrainians, Ukrainian diaspora abroad, I give 95% chance they or their ancestors came from one out of five westernmost Ukrainian provinces: Lviv (Lvov), Ternopil, Ivano-Frankivsk (aka Stanislav), Volyn, Bukovyna (Chernivtsi) ones. These 5 borderland provinces. There are 24 provinces in current Ukraine, then...

The biggest problem of the modern Ukraine is to me that the views of the inhabitants of 5 provinces are somehow considered more right, more accurate, more patriotic than the views of the rest of the population. Why? Because the rest of Ukraine kinda used to be Russified for centuries. Ehm, and those 5 provinces in return kinda were Polonised and Romania-ised and Hungarised for centuries - why is it better in terms of looking for a clear Ukrainian identity? If we're building a truly Ukrainian Ukraine, let's then amalgamate, calculate the average number, take from both sources or simply create something new. Instead, only the will, the traditions, the language of the western regions are considered tru-style nowadays. Are you going to tell me that the Polish rule over western Ukrainians was less de-Ukrainising than the Russian rule over the eastern part of Ukraine? Both Russia and Poland made their best to incorporate Ukrainians in their empires without a trace. Why should Polish influences be more preferable than Russian, in this respect?


My cleaning lady and her husband are from Lviv/Lvov area, and most of my friends in Toronto (most ogf them had names ending in "uk" were from Bukovyne, the Podolia plateau or Brestovskk area. This all the area north or Romania & Moldova, west of modern Poland and south of Belarus (which is also +/- Russian, btw).

AFAIK, there is little legitimate or historical claim in the land east of the Dniepr river or even the Black Sea areas. From what I remember, these lands were annexed to Ukraine by the Soviets, because the Ukrainians were aggressively claiming areas going all the way to the Causasus.

https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Lenin-agree-for-the-Treaty-of-Brestovsk-in-which-Russia-lost-one-third-of-its-population-and-nine-tenth-of-its-coal-production-along-with-making-Ukraine-and-Finland-independent






Edited by Sean Trane - February 25 2022 at 03:50
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 12 2021 at 08:17
Regarding Catholicism in Russia. 

The Metropolitan of Moscow - ie. Archbishop - of the Russian Orthodox Church - allowed the Salvation Army to operate in Moscow "so long as it did not try to convert the souls of Russians, who belong to the Orthodox Church". 

Well, it didn't, so a few strings were pulled and it was banned as a "terrorist organisation". 

So. If the Sally Army can get banned for rattling a few tins in bars, tell me what chance the Catholic church has. ;-) 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 12 2021 at 08:18
Woon Deadn, that's it completely about Ukraine. 

I speak to people from Lviv, I speak to people from Kharkiv..... two different planets. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 12 2021 at 08:23
Situation summed up here by Grazhdansakya Oborona.....

I was going to do a version of this, but my vocals are bad enough, my Russian vocals are completely beyond understanding. By anyone. Anywhere. 




Edited by Davesax1965 - December 12 2021 at 08:24

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 12 2021 at 11:40
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Woon Deadn, that's it completely about Ukraine. 

I speak to people from Lviv, I speak to people from Kharkiv..... two different planets. 
 

My late father (a very nice, diligent, well-educated person) was from Lviv province. My mother was from Central Ukraine. I used to speak Ukrainian to my father and Russian to my mother. It was a groundbreaking experience because I easily get the mentality of both sides of Ukraine. But my heart belongs to mother's one, though in the last years of my father I was rather on his side. 

From my perspective, a genuine Western Ukrainian trait is to want to live in a peaceful pretty country, with big family in a big private house, with big salaries and good friends. A genuine Russian trait is "everybody lives in sh*t but we've won the war, launched a satellite, tried this regime, it didn't work, so let's try this one, let's invade here, perhaps something will get better in the world, no it didn't get better so let's try that, maybe we need a czar or maybe we don't, oh and by the way finally we live better than ever before that's an unexpected bonus wow, oh now we live in sh*t again haha, lets' start the circle again". 
I'm not that young, I'm almost 40 y.o. - logically I must look for comfort and peace. Still, I like that messianic approach, that traumatising yet an experience. The most prominent Ukrainian poet Taras Shevchenko wrote a poem that begins with words, "The cherry garden by the house..." - this is just what the people in Western Ukraine are looking for, in my opinion. 
Here's that poem in Ukrainian recited: 




What Russians are looking for is best sung about in the Soviet days' rocker "And the battle is going on..." - there they sung that Lenin is still young (in the 1970s, that is...) and the battle lingers on again. Replace Lenin with someone else or remove him from the song - its lyrics would still mean a lot. Russia pretends to be a king on the chessboard, no matter white or black. Western Ukraine wants to be a chess piece that lives in a private house with own cherry garden. If there are no such pieces on the chessboard then Western Ukraine would play checkers or backgammon or poker or any other game where the dwellers of a house with cherry garden exist. If there is no such game, Western Ukrainians will easily play no games, at all. Live under the chessboard, if you will. 
Here's that Soviet song in Russian with English translation: 

 


Remembering that people in Kharkiv mainly take a Russian or pro-Russian side, you may see that the conflicting sides in Ukraine will hardly ever agree. After all, some people may be allergic to cherries. 


Edited by Woon Deadn - December 12 2021 at 11:43
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2021 at 01:35
Russia hints at pending ultimatum to US and NATO, regarding it's ongoing military build up in the Black Sea, Eastern Europe and it's support for Ukaraine.

This statement from the Russian foreign ministry on the 10th of December, following the e-summit between Jo Biden and Vladimir Putin, makes for dark reading, and suggests no backing down by Russia, and a probable ultimatum to be put to the west, to 'de-escalate' the situation, and to address Russia's security concerns.


Russian foreign ministry statement December 10th

Edited by Blacksword - December 13 2021 at 01:36
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 16 2021 at 02:02
Woon Deadn - that post is absolutely exactly right. ;-) 

"Beside  the house,  the  cherry’s  flowering...

("Sadok vyshnevyj kolo khaty")

Beside  the house,  the  cherry’s  flowering,
Above  the  trees  the  May  bugs  hum,
The ploughmen  from  the furrows  come,
The  girls  all  wander  homeward,  singing,
And  mothers  wait  the  meal  for  them.
Beside  the  house,  a  family  supper,
Above,  the  evening  star  appears,
The  daughter  serves  the  dishes  here;
I t’s  useless  to  advise  her,  mother.
The  nightingale  won’t  let  her  hear.
Beside  the house,  the  mother  lulls
The  little  children  for  the  night,
Then she,  too,  settles  a t  their  side.
And  all  is  s till. . .   Only  the  girls
And  nightingales  disturb  the  quiet.


Taras Shevchenko
"Sadok vyshnevyj kolo khaty"
("Садок вишневий коло хати")
1847, S - Peterburg (С.- Петербург)"

That poem reminds me of a night I spent on a dacha many years ago. ;-)


From what I've seen of Russia, everyone, from gopniki and bomzhi to intellectuals seem to believe that defeating the Germans in the war somehow makes them all hard men and Russia must permanently fight to return its' stolen Empire. It's like us Brits, only worse. Much worse. ;-)



Edited by Davesax1965 - December 16 2021 at 02:16

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 16 2021 at 10:56
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Woon Deadn - that post is absolutely exactly right. ;-) 

"Beside  the house,  the  cherry’s  flowering...

("Sadok vyshnevyj kolo khaty")
...
Taras Shevchenko
1847, S - Peterburg (С.- Петербург)"

That poem reminds me of a night I spent on a dacha many years ago. ;-)


From what I've seen of Russia, everyone, from gopniki and bomzhi to intellectuals seem to believe that defeating the Germans in the war somehow makes them all hard men and Russia must permanently fight to return its' stolen Empire. It's like us Brits, only worse. Much worse. ;-)


I dare express the picture this primitive way: Ukrainian ideology is rural, Russian is urban. I understand how simplified it sounds, but from my point of view, it's as simple as that. No doubt, in Russia there're more villages than in Ukraine, many of them are less civilised than the Ukrainian ones. Anyway, when we're mentioning Russia, there are, primarily, the images of Bolshoi Theatre, ballet, Tchaikovsky, Mussorgsky, Red Square, military, Hermitage museum... When Ukraine is mentioned, it's something around dumplings (varenyky), horilka (vodka), folk dances, state-wide protests where the battlecore usually consists of the youth from Western Ukrainian villages or towns... Plus some churches and monasteries, yes - mostly built by either people of ancient state of Rus' or by Poles (in Lviv, for example). 

Circa 2010 I had a fierce pro-nationalist-Ukrainian attitude. It was Euromaidan that changed my views radically - because I have seen how unsophisticated, how one-sided and stereotypically-rural all that mess was. I am not going to say urban population is totally wise, rural one is totally dumb. But there are some stereotypes that work well enough from time to time. Euromaidan was quite that time, for me. 

You know, I love the idea of a private house, neat garden, peaceful country, laws, rules, equality of possibilities and opportunities. To me the problem is that one has to live a fiery, flamboyant, interesting life and THEN in his/her older days live at private home and pick cherries every now and then. I see it thus. Ukrainians prefer just skip that flamboyant unpredictability and simply live in a cherry garden, giving all the rights and chances of geopolitical games to somebody from abroad... Unfortunately. What is that? That's a typical serf-peasant mentality - you serve your lord, he lets you have a house and pick cherries. 

Aren't Russians the same? They certainly used to give their freedoms and loyalty to their lord - instead the lord makes them feel like playing geopolitical games. It's not the same thing. 


I've recently heard famous Soviet, Russian satirist Mikhail Zhvanetsky recalling how his mother that lived in Odessa, Ukraine got a telephone communication at her apartment. He had performed, read his works at a home party of big Soviet boss in Moscow. He had done it for free - instead he asked to help set the phone connection in the apartment of his old mother. The big boss was pleased by Zhvanetsky's visit and the stories - and indeed on the next day called a friend, Minister of Communications of the USSR. The latter called the local branch of all-Soviet organisation dealing with phone communications in Odessa. It looked like victory. But when Mr. Zhvanetsky went to Odessa, the local authorities told him something like that, "We don't care about your Ministry in Moscow. The requested house where your mother's apartment is, is not connected to the city phone net, we need cable, and special machines, so let your Ministry send us phone cable, bulldozer, et al". In result, the mother of an already-famous Soviet writer/performer only got a phone connection in her apartment 7 (!) years after that... It was Brezhnev era and if somebody thinks that the USSR in general was one big scary prison camp, this story proves the opposite... It was an ascetic surrealist circus full of unexpected twists here and there. 
Russian way of doing things requires a vast sense of humour and a lot of patience and comprehension. As complex as the big cities are nowadays. Ukrainian way of life is "we want to live happily ever after and ever before, no matter what and who and how would provide us that happiness". 


Then, on your last paragraph about imperial behaviour: the modern day cities tend to grow on and on, imbibing the villages located nearby... India is not located near the UK, while Ukraine indeed is located near Russia... 
I would say that Russia simply wants to be sure it is able to fight. Villages don't play this kind of games, for all I know. It's cities that build fortresses and compose anthems, and raise flags and organise campaigns. I personally am an urban man 99%. I love the countryside pictures, but to me much like to the Soviet power a village is an entity from the 18th century, at best. So, village amusements do not attract me in any possible way. 

For good example, there was a guy during Euromaidan protests that called the people for directly getting to and storming the residence of Viktor Yanukovych, the then President of Ukraine. His name is Volodymyr Parasyuk. Later on he would be at some sort of official meeting in some security service office where he would see the man that as he believed was involved in some (corruption?) crimes, I suppose. Mr. Parasyuk, a hero of Euromaidan would kick the man in his head... The funniest thing about it all was that the victim that was kicked had provided the protesters in West Ukrainian regions with free buses in times of Euromaidan so that they could get to Kiev's Maidan as soon as possible. Therefore, one hero of Euromaidan kicked another one Confused. Where Volodymyr Parasyuk came to Kiev from? From a village in Lviv province, Western Ukraine. Which explains it all, another example of a stereotypical Ukrainian village-style behaviour: 



Edited by Woon Deadn - December 16 2021 at 15:04
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2021 at 03:34
Have recently watched it, desperately want to share it with you. 

The Russian way...: 



The subtitles err in just two moments: the saint that helps the businessmen is Saint Spyridon of Trimythous - Spiridon Trimifuntsky in Russian; also, the authors didn't translate the word venik - a bath broom. 



Edited by Woon Deadn - December 17 2021 at 03:34
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2021 at 09:20
US rejects Russia's proposals..Obviously..

BBC - US/NATO reject Russian proposals

Edited by Blacksword - December 17 2021 at 09:21
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2021 at 14:34
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

US rejects Russia's proposals..Obviously..

BBC - US/NATO reject Russian proposals
 

The inertia of people's thinking spoils the whole party in this conflict. Foreigners and even some former Soviet citizens (notably from those three Baltic states) still reasonably shocked by Stalin's methods. Alas, Stalin died forever in 1953... Gone with him the whole truly unpredictable scary practices of blaming, imprisoning, killing any-a-one for any-a-thing. There were no mass repressions in the USSR after Stalin's death. Also, the USSR did not take a single piece of foreign territory after Stalin's death (in fact, even since the early 1950s). As far as I know, the Soviet military of the post-Stalin era really had plans of attacking West Berlin in case something would go wrong from the other side of the conflict... But I know no Soviet post-Stalin plans of invading, attacking some foreign European country FIRST. 

This short clip from James Bond Octopussy movie looks like a very clear statement to me: 




Sure, the USSR didn't want to lose its prestige and the buffer zone against a possible attack from the West - so, they kept Poland, Czechoslovakia, other countries of the Warsaw Pact bloc under its control. But they were not going to invade any other country, at all. The situation with Afghanistan is another issue: Afghanistan bordered on the poorest of 15 Soviet republics, Tajikistan. Even back then in the 1970s Tajikistan already had some problems with drugs and poverty of its citizens. Having a problematic neighbour only increased the problems for the Soviet power in that region... Not to mention that indeed the USSR heard of the radical Islamist and other no less radical views of the Afghan power to come. After all, Afghanistan was not an European or American state. As you probably know, even the Stalin's USSR gave away parts of Austria that were occupied by Soviet troops in 1945 to the West. 

Three Baltic states unfortunately also live and think by historical, mental inertia. The USSR under Khrushchev or Brezhnev wouldn't have invaded them! It was Stalin's persona and circa-WW2 times that made such tricks possible. My late granma once had a very small very thin dog. His previous owners had kids, the kids used to torture the poor puppy, not letting him go out of the house. So, when I went from granma's house and shut the door, the poor dog hysterically opposed me by biting the door and squealing. It was understandable and tear-jerking - but still it was sick and insane. What more or less suits a skinny little dog, looks even sicker for a nation... For a dog historical inertia is normal, it's an animal. For a country of millions of inhabitants still pretending that we live in Stalin's times and Russia would occupy them... How many countries did Russia occupy in the last 60 years? Isn't the inertia too long for a conscious observer? 

The situation with Crimea is very different. It was "gifted" (illegally even by vague Soviet law, because at the time of voting there were no enough voters in the government in Moscow) to Ukraine by Nikita Khrushchev. This region traditionally considered itself... non-Ukrainian. There were Crimean Tatars that naturally leant towards Turkey and other Turkic lands outside - Kiev and Crimean Tatars mutually... not quite liked each otherBig smile. There was also a big Russian minority - that is, majority. There's no comparison with Baltic countries in terms of language, common culture, religion, etc. Gogol was a Russian writer born in Ukraine, not in Latvia or Lithuania. Estonian language is not even Indo-European, it is Finno-Ugric - it is light years far from Slavic languages. How do these three Baltic states see this modern day invasion? How does Poland imagine itself being occupied by Putin's forces nowadays? Are Russians stupid enough to not understand there would be massive guerilla resistance that would be impossible to secretly suppress brutally in the era of smartphones and social networks? How could the Capitalist country of Russia organise life in the occupied Capitalist territories? Capitalism in Europe doesn't work that way. Totalitarian Socialism worked - but not Capitalism.

Again, sane analysis should prevail. I personally see no sane reason for NATO existence, at all. The USA itself is able to do the job single-handedly. Why does it need an international organisation for that? Even if NATO exists, Poland and three Baltic countries should grow enough to feel the difference between school bullying and modern day adult life. Elon Musk was bullied at school - he has grown up and I believe is not afraid of people or organisations anymore... Times used to change. 

By the way, there were mighty Communist Parties in France and Italy in the mid-20th century - neither Khrushchev nor Brezhnev made any steps to invade them or organise a coup or elsewhat... They were sane enough to understand that it would be stupid. France was not even a member of NATO for some time... In theory the USSR could do something to France - no, they invited French actors, singers to perform at the Soviet stages, nothing more. There was a cult French comic trilogy of movies about Fantomas, much loved in the USSR. The creators of the movie (the French team, naturally) even planned to make the fourth movie in Moscow - then the idea of the fourth movie failed due to commercial reasons, irrelevant of the country of filming in. Later on the first French astronaut would fly to space on the Soviet rocket, the military man of the Capitalist country on the Soviet rocket. It seems, France was not afraid of any Soviet influence, harmful activities whatsoever. French company built a luxurious hotel in Moscow in 1979 specially for the Moscow Olympics' 1980. 

OK, I see that France did not border on the USSR. Still, the USSR did not try to make a coup in France or something like that. I find the hysteria in Baltic countries and Poland laughable. They behave like adolescents, if not kids. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2021 at 16:12
They do not only remember Stalin, they remember Budapest in 1956, Prague in 1968, martial law in Poland 1981. They also remember how in January 1991 the Soviets tried to stop the independence process in the Baltic countries. I'd think whether Russia ever tried to occupy France or Italy, and even what happened in Afghanistan, is rather unimportant in comparison, when it comes to the perception of people in Czech Republic, Baltic countries etc.


Edited by Lewian - December 17 2021 at 16:13
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2021 at 16:28
Originally posted by Woon Deadn Woon Deadn wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

US rejects Russia's proposals..Obviously..

BBC - US/NATO reject Russian proposals
 

The inertia of people's thinking spoils the whole party in this conflict. Foreigners and even some former Soviet citizens (notably from those three Baltic states) still reasonably shocked by Stalin's methods. Alas, Stalin died forever in 1953... Gone with him the whole truly unpredictable scary practices of blaming, imprisoning, killing any-a-one for any-a-thing. There were no mass repressions in the USSR after Stalin's death. Also, the USSR did not take a single piece of foreign territory after Stalin's death (in fact, even since the early 1950s). As far as I know, the Soviet military of the post-Stalin era really had plans of attacking West Berlin in case something would go wrong from the other side of the conflict... But I know no Soviet post-Stalin plans of invading, attacking some foreign European country FIRST. 

This short clip from James Bond Octopussy movie looks like a very clear statement to me: 




Sure, the USSR didn't want to lose its prestige and the buffer zone against a possible attack from the West - so, they kept Poland, Czechoslovakia, other countries of the Warsaw Pact bloc under its control. But they were not going to invade any other country, at all. The situation with Afghanistan is another issue: Afghanistan bordered on the poorest of 15 Soviet republics, Tajikistan. Even back then in the 1970s Tajikistan already had some problems with drugs and poverty of its citizens. Having a problematic neighbour only increased the problems for the Soviet power in that region... Not to mention that indeed the USSR heard of the radical Islamist and other no less radical views of the Afghan power to come. After all, Afghanistan was not an European or American state. As you probably know, even the Stalin's USSR gave away parts of Austria that were occupied by Soviet troops in 1945 to the West. 

Three Baltic states unfortunately also live and think by historical, mental inertia. The USSR under Khrushchev or Brezhnev wouldn't have invaded them! It was Stalin's persona and circa-WW2 times that made such tricks possible. My late granma once had a very small very thin dog. His previous owners had kids, the kids used to torture the poor puppy, not letting him go out of the house. So, when I went from granma's house and shut the door, the poor dog hysterically opposed me by biting the door and squealing. It was understandable and tear-jerking - but still it was sick and insane. What more or less suits a skinny little dog, looks even sicker for a nation... For a dog historical inertia is normal, it's an animal. For a country of millions of inhabitants still pretending that we live in Stalin's times and Russia would occupy them... How many countries did Russia occupy in the last 60 years? Isn't the inertia too long for a conscious observer? 

The situation with Crimea is very different. It was "gifted" (illegally even by vague Soviet law, because at the time of voting there were no enough voters in the government in Moscow) to Ukraine by Nikita Khrushchev. This region traditionally considered itself... non-Ukrainian. There were Crimean Tatars that naturally leant towards Turkey and other Turkic lands outside - Kiev and Crimean Tatars mutually... not quite liked each otherBig smile. There was also a big Russian minority - that is, majority. There's no comparison with Baltic countries in terms of language, common culture, religion, etc. Gogol was a Russian writer born in Ukraine, not in Latvia or Lithuania. Estonian language is not even Indo-European, it is Finno-Ugric - it is light years far from Slavic languages. How do these three Baltic states see this modern day invasion? How does Poland imagine itself being occupied by Putin's forces nowadays? Are Russians stupid enough to not understand there would be massive guerilla resistance that would be impossible to secretly suppress brutally in the era of smartphones and social networks? How could the Capitalist country of Russia organise life in the occupied Capitalist territories? Capitalism in Europe doesn't work that way. Totalitarian Socialism worked - but not Capitalism.

Again, sane analysis should prevail. I personally see no sane reason for NATO existence, at all. The USA itself is able to do the job single-handedly. Why does it need an international organisation for that? Even if NATO exists, Poland and three Baltic countries should grow enough to feel the difference between school bullying and modern day adult life. Elon Musk was bullied at school - he has grown up and I believe is not afraid of people or organisations anymore... Times used to change. 

By the way, there were mighty Communist Parties in France and Italy in the mid-20th century - neither Khrushchev nor Brezhnev made any steps to invade them or organise a coup or elsewhat... They were sane enough to understand that it would be stupid. France was not even a member of NATO for some time... In theory the USSR could do something to France - no, they invited French actors, singers to perform at the Soviet stages, nothing more. There was a cult French comic trilogy of movies about Fantomas, much loved in the USSR. The creators of the movie (the French team, naturally) even planned to make the fourth movie in Moscow - then the idea of the fourth movie failed due to commercial reasons, irrelevant of the country of filming in. Later on the first French astronaut would fly to space on the Soviet rocket, the military man of the Capitalist country on the Soviet rocket. It seems, France was not afraid of any Soviet influence, harmful activities whatsoever. French company built a luxurious hotel in Moscow in 1979 specially for the Moscow Olympics' 1980. 

OK, I see that France did not border on the USSR. Still, the USSR did not try to make a coup in France or something like that. I find the hysteria in Baltic countries and Poland laughable. They behave like adolescents, if not kids. 



 

It's important that both sides understand the multiple points of view. I hear the American point of view, since that's where I live.  That said, I can somewhat fathom how Russia feels about NATO/American weapons on their border. Moscow is 300 miles from the Ukraine border... American/NATO ships on war-exorcises in the Black Sea.  How would America feel if China and Russia ran joint war-exercises in The Gulf of Mexico?  Too close for comfort.   

Speaking of France.  Earlier this week, Putin discussed the Ukraine situation- on the phone- with Macron and Sauli Niinistö (Finland). Putin claimed, 
"Ukraine is being pumped up with modern weapons, which poses a direct threat to Russia’s security.” 

I wonder if Macron will try to sedate the Ukrainian situation? Play the peacemaker.  Perhaps, Macron/France felt torpedoed when Australia recently cancelled a multi-billion dollar deal to buy French submarines.  Australia, then cut a deal with America and UK for submarines. 




Edited by omphaloskepsis - December 17 2021 at 17:09
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2021 at 17:15
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

They do not only remember Stalin, they remember Budapest in 1956, Prague in 1968, martial law in Poland 1981. They also remember how in January 1991 the Soviets tried to stop the independence process in the Baltic countries. I'd think whether Russia ever tried to occupy France or Italy, and even what happened in Afghanistan, is rather unimportant in comparison, when it comes to the perception of people in Czech Republic, Baltic countries etc.
 

You are always very meaningful and very laconic. Two treasures I don't have in my purse. 

Once caught, any big enough country won't let the territories out in times of war - even if the war is titled Cold. The territories were caught at the time it was possible to act so. Sure, the owner at the time of Communism vs Capitalism worldwide contest won't let the territories go away. Look at Vietnam, North Korea or Cuba - the USA let them go only after much blood shed. Much more blood than in Budapest or Prague uprisings...

You may also look at how the times changed: Budapest 1956 was extremely terrible with lots of blood, tortures of the Communists (they say, the protesters scarred the five-angled star on the bodies of the Communists), killings on both sides; Prague 1968 was also terrible but way less so than Budapest events; martial law in Poland was simply different for the Polish elite solved the situation without the invasion of Soviet troops... Though it was still the same Brezhnev in office in the USSR in 1968 and 1981, these three times of tension were different. 

The January 1991 events just ended unsuccesfully for the Soviet power - unlike the previous mentioned here attempts. So, indeed, there must be some difference... After all, the country protected its integrity. The means used in Budapest or Prague were impossible to apply in January 1991. The protesters won. What's the use of being scared then? Were there any threats after 1991? Just the ghosts from the past. 

It's simply inertia, to me. The modern world is very different from those times. It's thirty years now since 1991. Living in the past may be favourable for the people of art, not for the whole population of the country. What can this occupation look like? How this invasion is possible? I can understand how invasion is possible in the Crimea that had been Russian for centuries, then it was illegally even by the Soviet law of the time "gifted" (kinda like gifting a child to another family by a husband, not asking the will of the child or the mother) to Ukraine with all its population that never lost its links to Russia anyway, then 60 years after it came back with the overwhelming majority of its population visibly (even without any referendums) wanting to go back to Russia. I can understand how invasion was possible in Afghanistan... Three Baltic countries were needed by the USSR because at the time a lot of European countries had pro-nazi, pro-fascist views/power. The USSR understood that the pro-nazi governments right near Leningrad would be too dangerous for national security. National security is a magical word combination that makes miracles come true... 

Nowadays there are missiles and bombs (and even lasers they say)! What's the use of occupying the country where the overwhelming majority of the population would visibly hate your presence in the 21st century? Especially if you have numerous connections with other Capitalist countries in each and every branch of economics. If you occupy some other Capitalist country, essentially the commercial ties, the economical connections would be broken - even without sanctions. This is the way it works in Europe and North America. The political ties would be broken, undoubtedly. What is it for then? I don't think Russia just wants to enlarge its territory to boost the morale of its citizens or to feed the ego of the president - Russia hasn't played these games since the beginning of the 20th century, I think. These days, it's all pragmatical calculations. Sure, you can invade the territory that want to be yours itself in the times of powerlessness (right after Euromaidan there were a few days when e.g. the police in the whole country was inactive not to say absent, so the citizens gathered in vigilante groups to protect the order in the streets) - especially if it's been yours voluntarily for centuries! The Baltic states which is well-known in Russia and elsewhere were not voluntarily-Russian. They do not want to be parts of Russia, Russian population in them is at first a real minority and not all of that minority eager to join Russia anyhow... 

These are hues, nuances - yet true analysis is impossible without reckoning them. Again, I was pleasantly surprised when I first saw the James Bond movies featuring the character of General Gogol. He is just a human being in his office, not a sadistic villain: 

 


Edited by Woon Deadn - December 18 2021 at 04:59
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