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Your favourite South and Far East Asia albums?

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David_D View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2021 at 01:26
Originally posted by <font size=3>nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Wow just wow
thank you very much, Nogbad
I could be wrong, but I don’t think you should be thankful. I’m pretty sure this comment of awe is in regard to how awful this thread is, rather than how awesome. 

Now, Nick, even I don't find it so necessary anymore, I'd like to know why you did it. 
And to be sure, I just want an explanation of this comment quoted here.


Edited by David_D - December 14 2021 at 01:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2021 at 02:29
Ermm  The explanation follows just where you decided to cut off the quote...
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

I could be wrong, but I don’t think you should be thankful. I’m pretty sure this comment of awe is in regard to how awful this thread is, rather than how awesome. Potentially even worse, but definitely as bad, as the Eastern Europe thread, and for the same reasons. It’s funny how you accused someone of being racist when they obviously weren’t, when you come far closer yourself - though I’m sure you do it innocently and without malice.

Once again you have grouped together a huge range of different countries, cultures and musical traditions, in a fashion that could easily be viewed as insulting and/or offensive. I assume, but could be wrong, that the “wow” comment is simply because you have not taken onboard any of the criticism within the Eastern Europe thread, have not learnt your lesson, and have put forward another grouping of countries. It would appear you couldn’t even get the the geography right this time, from earlier comments. Well done for taking that on the chin, and editing your topic and OP to reflect the broader geography, but geez - now the geographical area is even greater, and has an even greater number of cultures, languages, traditions and instruments.

For example, the music just within the Indian subcontinent is incredibly diverse, and certainly unlike the music of Japan, which is likely to be the next most known country for music in these fora. (In fact, Japan has had more than one thread dedicated just to it before, and is one of many countries within this region that could easily have their own post, rather than be grouped together with countries that share nothing other than your grouping them together.

I think it’s admirable that you are trying to be as active as you are in the forum, and there is a lot of merit in finding out what people like from various regions of the world - but please (please) try and make them smaller, and more sensible. In both the Eastern Europe thread and (before you edited it) this one, you have included countries that just logically have no connection to the larger grouping, and are asking people to draw from a pool that while it might not seem large to you, if you are not greatly familiar with it, is simply too vast and too differing, to realistically make a list.

I know you are not going to find this comment constructive, and I’m sorry about that. But I hope you can at least understand where I am coming from.

Again, you don't have to agree with this assessment. Most of us, I think, have already turned the page. I suggest you do the same and get back to what you wanted to do with this thread - there's no obligation whatsoever to comply to other peoples wishes or take their objections into account. But it is good to reflect on it.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2021 at 02:51
As Kees has pointed out, my explanation is below your crop of my post. But, if it makes you feel any better, I do apologise for that comment. I meant it as a throwaway joke playing upon the twin meaning of awe (awesome and awful were once synonyms, and it is only in more recent times that their meaning have drifted apart). Given that this is the part you have dwelt upon, then I am definitely sorry I wrote it, because it appears to mean you’ve not read anything beyond it.

I like your enthusiasm. I like that you are trying to explore the world. I’ve attempted to recognise this in my comment, because I don’t want to be the Debbie Downer that rains on your parade.

It amuses me that you have thanked Pedro for his comment, because (in his idiosyncratic roundabout manner) he was largely (though not wholly) expressing agreement with me. There are already some really good threads on this forum for various countries (a couple of which Pedro pointed out), and the “best” threads are though that have a concise area. I use inverted commas, because, of course, the idea of what is best is entirely subjective. However, it is notable that those threads have a far greater discussion about the music of the region than yours do. Admittedly, there is a fair bit of discussion here, but a lot of it is in relation to what I posted, rather than the OP. If you really cared to keep to the topic you have presented, then take what I said with a pinch of salt, and move on. I didn’t say it to malicious. And, once again, I apologise for using the word “awful”.

The only thing I would suggest (and not just for this thread, but every single one that you’ve created) is to stop expecting an echo chamber, and when someone comes up with a dissenting view, please don’t take it to heart. Most of the time, the posts I’ve seen that disagree with you (and they are certainly not only from myself) are far more patient and polite with you, than you are in return.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2021 at 03:01
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

... I do apologise for that comment. I meant it as a throwaway joke playing upon the twin meaning of awe (awesome and awful were once synonyms, and it is only in more recent times that their meaning have drifted apart). 

Thank you very much for that, Nick, and given that we both have learned from this thread, we might try to start from a new. But I think it's best if we for a while keep a god distance from each other - that is at least my need.
Thank you
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2021 at 03:47
^In the interests of progress then, because I’m afraid I’m not going to ignore a topic of interest simply because of who comments on the post, here is another attempt to explain why I don’t find your grouping of countries meaningful. As in, this is just my opinion, and I have no expectation of you agreeing with it.

For someone like me, who has in my collection bands/artists from many countries that I guess fit your broad area, the only thing that could make them comparable is if you are looking for Weaternised styles of music. And if you are doing that, then while you might still find a new band or artist to listen to, it’s not necessarily the same as finding something new to listen to. So it’s all what you’re looking for. If a band from India or China sounds no different than one from the UK or the US, then for me (and I must again emphasise this is for me) it is less interesting than something more representative of the country and/or culture and/or heritage/tradition, etc. that’s not to say I won’t bother with Western sounding bands and artists. If the music is interesting/enjoyable it’s interesting/enjoyable no matter where in the world it’s from.

But when threads like this come up on PA, it is usually because the poster wants to find something more than just another prog band that sounds like it could have come from the US or the UK. And as has been pointed out, and not just by me, there have been many such posts over the years, which have always generated positive discussion, and introduced people to new music to explore. That’s always a good thing, and it’s still a good thing here (and in your East Europe and Africa threads), because there is still opportunity for interesting discussion and discovery. The irony is that by broadening the area, you are limiting the discoveries. I realise that sounds contradictory, but the various geographical threads over the years bare this out. The narrower the scope, the more involvement there has been.

From within what I assume is the area you are covering, I have bands/artists from (roughly west to east) Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Myanmar, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, China, Taiwan, Philippines, South Korea and Japan. I don’t believe I have anything from Bhutan, Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia or North Korea.

As I mentioned earlier, even India is quite different with two main musical traditions that are quite different from each other: Carnatic in the south, and Hindustani in the north. So both traditional and contemporary Indian music can sound very different, depending on which culture and region they draw from.

I have never outrightly criticised you for attempting to find out about music from around the globe, and (to the contrary) have always stated it is a great thing, and one I wish more people would do. There’s a world of music out there, and a lot of people just aren’t interested in finding out about it - so that fact that you are, endears you to me. I have no problem with you (even if you believe I do).

If you’re interested, this is a recent thread asking for people’s favourite albums from Japan, to illustrate my point. Look how many people responded to this (in May this year), compared to how many have responded to your post. In the case of a geographical thread, it is always easier for people to respond to a smaller area. The regions you cover are simply too vast for a lot of forum members to feel they can contribute constructively or easily.


All I have ever attempted to do, is help you get a greater response, because I have been here long enough to see what gets a response. I have never set out to insult or offend you, and all my criticism has always been as positive ans constructive as I can make it. What you do with it, and how you react to it, is up to you.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2021 at 09:26
@nick: From my point of view such lists are games, not to be taken too seriously, but of course of some potential use. Given that this is so, I don't have problems with pretty much any game of this kind somebody could come up with. Regularly here there are list of "your favourite x bands/albums" from all that exist. If the world is not too big for a list, Asia (or parts of it) is not either. It for sure doesn't mean that all potentially listed in this thread is "comparable" in the sense of following a common tradition, shared influences or whatever.

In fact, I find the idea mistaken that anything from, say, France, can appear in the same list because it is "comparable" (in whatever sense) whereas India and Kamchatka should not appear in the same list as for some reason they're not "comparable". Nobody in France should be constrained to make music that is recognisable as French, and for sure an artist from Kamchatka can have their take on Indian music. All fine by me. You may like these threads or not, or some of them more than others, but I don't buy your apparent "X and Y should not be grouped together" logic.  

And for sure I believe David is right that most people on PA wouldn't be able to put together a list of size >=10 from, say, India, South Korea, Asian Russia, or whatever, and a big area allows more of us to participate. Good enough a reason for me. (I plan to post a list later but too much stuff going on in December.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2021 at 10:06
I think you’re overanalysing my response, but that’s probably down to my way with words (which often don’t say what I want them to). I have a tendency to be overly verbose, and still not cut across what I want to say. I certainly do like David’s posts, and have said so every time.

I also agree that there is no compulsion for anyone from any country to play music from that country’s musical traditions/culture/history/whatever. That is certainly NOT what I was meaning to suggest at all. That would be ridiculous.

I, too, will be making a list. As I will for East Europe. It will be difficult, and more so because I have a lot of artists (let alone albums) from these large areas, but I would still like to play - because I like games, and particularly those like these where we get to share music and make new discoveries.

[EDIT] I meant to say, also. I agree that for large portions of the region here, many (if not most) forum members would struggle to make lists >10, but that also was not my point. (And, my fault again, because it was poorly made.). Just as with the Eastern Europe post, where David asked for albums from East Europe but NOT Poland, because he recognised that that country would otherwise dominate the list, this post could perhaps have been SE Asia but NOT Japan, as that country is likely to dominate the list (with more than one previous PA post showing a lot of forum members can come up with lists of 10+ albums from that country). I suspect India could also have its own post, and the Indian subcontinent was sort of a mistake by David in the first place (as per the edits after initial comments).

The same could be said for Eastern Europe. I wasn’t really suggesting that every country should have its own post, for the exact same reason you point out here. A lot of forum members (including myself) would struggle to find 10 albums for some of the countries. All I was suggesting with Eastern Europe is that as well as excluding Poland, it might have been wise to exclude Russia (and possibly also Ukraine), as unsurprisingly most people who did respond tended to have lists dominated by Russian artists. I completely apologise for the way I’ve tried to explain myself, if people are not understanding. I do like these threads, because one of ,y favourite things is finding new music from all around the world.

Carry on!



Edited by nick_h_nz - December 14 2021 at 10:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hugh Manatee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2021 at 16:15
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

I think you’re overanalysing my response, but that’s probably down to my way with words (which often don’t say what I want them to). I have a tendency to be overly verbose, and still not cut across what I want to say. 

Yes, a lot to unpack here, as with most of your posts that I have read in my short time here so far. Nothing wrong with that though as far as I'm concerned.

I do get what your trying to say regarding regions and precision and such, I just don't quite agree. Surely a thread should be free ranging and have the ability to wander where it may regardless. If that annoys and even aggravates some people, surely they can make the choice not to engage. 

However that is not really the point that needs addressing here as far as I'm concerned.

It concerns me when a poster with the obvious enthusiasm and, yes maybe even the naivete that the OP displays, gets piled on for displaying that enthusiasm and niavete.

As I have a tendency towards these attributes, it doesn't bode well for me.

I admire your patience for taking the time and effort to explain yourself in such an erudite manner but at the same time I can't help but think that your bearing the cross for others here.

Anyway, who am I to speak, being a newbie here and all.


Edited by Hugh Manatee - December 14 2021 at 16:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2021 at 16:51
Ashwin Batish performing his fusion music in Santa Cruz. I've seen him perform and got to meet him too, very open and friendly guy.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2021 at 23:47
Originally posted by Hugh Manatee Hugh Manatee wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

I think you’re overanalysing my response, but that’s probably down to my way with words (which often don’t say what I want them to). I have a tendency to be overly verbose, and still not cut across what I want to say. 

Yes, a lot to unpack here, as with most of your posts that I have read in my short time here so far. Nothing wrong with that though as far as I'm concerned.

I do get what your trying to say regarding regions and precision and such, I just don't quite agree. Surely a thread should be free ranging and have the ability to wander where it may regardless. If that annoys and even aggravates some people, surely they can make the choice not to engage. 

However that is not really the point that needs addressing here as far as I'm concerned.

It concerns me when a poster with the obvious enthusiasm and, yes maybe even the naivete that the OP displays, gets piled on for displaying that enthusiasm and niavete.

As I have a tendency towards these attributes, it doesn't bode well for me.

I admire your patience for taking the time and effort to explain yourself in such an erudite manner but at the same time I can't help but think that your bearing the cross for others here.

Anyway, who am I to speak, being a newbie here and all.

You and I are so much on the same page, it’s unreal. The reason I have attempted to reach David is because he does have enthusiasm (and, yes, maybe naivety), and I don’t want him to lose that. In several of his threads, much of the discussion is simply David replying to himself, and the lack of response he often gets is unfair. I don’t want his spirit to be broken, but I can see that happening. Elsewhere he has expressed how little interest there seems to be in his threads, and all I’ve been attempting to do is explain why that might be. There have been others who have simply told him he is wrong, and that’s not fair or accurate.

There is no “right” or “wrong”, because most regional geographical areas are imposed somewhat arbitrarily, and often not even by those within them. So there is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with the regions David proposes (although many of the criticisms have been obvious ones, that probably could have been avoided). But for someone who appears to want there to be discussion on his posts, David does make it difficult for himself. That is why I have tried to explain why other similar posts (and there have been many) in the past have worked, or not. And historically, on these fora at least, the narrower the region, the more discussion generated.

As for free-ranging, I am in complete agreement, and every forum I have ever been a member or moderator in the past has encouraged the idea that, regardless of the OP, and thread can take any direction it wants. Tangents are not only welcomed, but encouraged. But that doesn’t seem to happen so often here on PA, and a lot of forum members seem not so fond of free-ranging threads. David definitely appears to be one of them, as he doesn’t like it when someone goes somewhere he wasn’t expecting. This is, again for me, an indicator that a narrower focus might suit him better. The narrower the geographic region (and, once again, I am NOT proposing every country needs to have its own thread), the less chance for the discussion to go somewhere David doesn’t want it to.

Everything I have said, no matter how badly I’ve said it (and I admit I’ve not made myself clear, which has become increasingly apparent) has been my attempt to help, not hinder, David. I want his enthusiasm to remain undiminished, and I want people to take an active interest in his posts - because I think their intention is admirable and worthy of much discussion. I could talk about music from around the world until my face fell off. Some of the people I know on FB think I have music from every country in the world. I don’t, and that’s not even an aim of mine. I do know, therefore, that my own music collection is not representative of the general forum member. So my suggestions for David have not been for me, or because of what I have in my collection, but simply because over the years (and I have been lurking here for years before I started posting) I have seen a lot, and learnt a lot about which topics draw discussion, and which don’t.

Also, welcome to PA. I don’t think I’ve said that already, even though I’ve replied to you on more than one occasion.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hugh Manatee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2021 at 00:51
One again I thank you for your considered and erudite response.

I think I do have an understanding of the situation with David and as I have ambled around the forum I have witnessed the posting methods he has employed with a certain amount of trepadation, amusement and even a touch of embarrassment. Embarrassment because I recall my formative excursions into forums when I first ventured into them way back when.

Every forum has a slightly different ettiquette that has been established over time and it can seem that some posters don't recognise or give enough respect to this. I have also over time come to appreciate that each forum has an underworld of veterans and long time posters that don't have the patience and tolerance that you so admirably display. For that I sincerely commend you, for what that's worth.

David does seem to border on desperation at times, and he can even display an immaturity that could be grating to some. Understandable.

Posters choose not to engage with him because of his approach, and so he pushes his barrow until the wheels fall off and he blocks traffic.

Annoying for sure, but piling on comes across as unecessary and even somewhat elitest, Worst of all it is counterproductive to the feel of the forum. 

Having said all that, it is rather ironic that despite all your efforts to steer him in the "right" direction, he has largely shrugged off those who critisze him and has decided to wipe you. This, more than anything else should give you an idea of the sort of "mission" you've taken on.

Anyhoo, tilt on Don Quixote. David may not appreciate your efforts but I am certainly taking in what you have to offer.


Edited by Hugh Manatee - December 15 2021 at 00:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hugh Manatee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2021 at 01:03
Oh, btw, thank you for the welcome.

I probaly should have started with the the "Introduce yourself" thread but in my enthusiam I charged right in and neglected that particular piece of ettiquette.

Oh well, the sky has folded and it will never fold back.


Edited by Hugh Manatee - December 15 2021 at 01:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2021 at 07:14

Don't worry about me, guys, as I see it, the threads I've started have had many replies and views - and I enjoy them and experience many other positive things. 

But thank you for your concern, and best wishes to you, as well. Smile


Edited by David_D - December 15 2021 at 07:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hugh Manatee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2021 at 07:22
I recall reading somewhere "quality above quantity" but I just can't bring to mind where.

I find it hard
It's hard to find
Oh well
Whatever
Nevermind
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2021 at 09:55

Okay, Hugh, maybe we can talk about it on some later point of time, but I think it would be good if we both first got some more experience with PA so, we're well aware of the kind of water we're swimming in - in fact, I first really began to be active on PA seven weeks ago.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2021 at 16:48
I really Desire this Indian love song by Deepak Chopra & Demi Moore Heart








Edited by Psychedelic Paul - December 15 2021 at 17:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hugh Manatee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2021 at 17:11
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


Okay, Hugh, maybe we can talk about it on some later point of time, but I think it would be good if we both first got some more experience with PA so, we're well aware of the kind of water we're swimming in - in fact, I first really began to be active on PA seven weeks ago.

Wow, seven weeks and already over 1600 posts. Are you trying to break some kind of record or something?

Well, I guess there's no better way of learning how to swim than diving in head first and hoping there isn't a rocky bottom just under the surface.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2021 at 22:23
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Okay, Hugh, maybe we can talk about it on some later point of time, but I think it would be good if we both first got some more experience with PA so, we're well aware of the kind of water we're swimming in - in fact, I first really began to be active on PA seven weeks ago.

Something else, Hugh, I don't know how many of "my" threads you've seen, and anyway in my opinion, there's a lot of quality in them. 


Edited by David_D - December 20 2021 at 03:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2021 at 22:31
Originally posted by Hugh Manatee Hugh Manatee wrote:

Wow, seven weeks and already over 1600 posts. 

I've been very busy, yes, but it's about 1600 points and 770 posts, and I did some posts when I signed in and discussed among other things my Prog defining article 11 years ago.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2021 at 22:39
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I really Desire this Indian love song by Deepak Chopra & Demi Moore Heart

Interesting to hear about your secret loves, Paul. Big smile
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