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goose 
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Joined: June 20 2004
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 Posted: January 04 2005 at 12:43 |
 Certif1ed wrote:
...and therefore Celtic Frost, Kreator and
pre-Metallica Metallica, maybe even Sepultura or Venom - the epic "At
War With Satan" is longer than many prog tracks! |
To be fair, I'd be tempted with Celtic Frost, as well as Voivod and
definitely Atheist (who someone else mentioned). Certainly having Cynic
on here suggests putting Atheist; OK so Atheist are heavier, but I
wouldn't say it's at the cost of progressiveness...
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Certif1ed
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Posted: January 04 2005 at 13:17 |
Celtic Frost were/are(?) a very progressive band indeed 
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Squirrel_monkey
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Posted: January 05 2005 at 13:22 |
Hi, I'm new, really cool site!
1st band I think are missing is Electric Light Orchestra, (ELO). I know they're hardly fasionable, and most people associate them with their later pop stuff, but the early stuff more stuff is certainly progressive, and really good! For example, the concept album 'Eldorado', with it's massive orchestra and 7 minute instrumental medley on the remaster. Then there's the earlier stuff still - the album 'ELO 2', all long tracks, such as the 11 minute 'Kuiama'. Another album, 'On the third day', has a brilliant instrumental 'Mourning breaker', (I really recommend you hear this), as well as the cover, (?), of 'In the hall of the mountain king'. 'Face the music' is also a brilliant one with the fantastic 'Fire on high'. These early albums have certainly got the length, and the instrumentation is certainly experimental with the Cellos, and violin. Richard Tandy's a pretty good keyboardist too. I think they deserve a place on the site as they aren't far from Moody Blues, (another favorite of mine), or Supertramp.
Second one, Alice Cooper, another unusual suggestion as normally he's considered hard-rock or metal. Listen though to the right albums and you'll see that he too has experimented a bit. The really early stuff for a start, by the orrignal 'Alice Cooper Band', two very long experimental tracks from this era: 'Halo of Flies' and 'Black Juju'. If you go earlier still, before anyone liked them, you'll see that they were once really obscure. Later solo stuff also had a touch of the progressive, for example the 3 part ending of the concept album: 'Welcome to my nightmare', with the fantastic track 'Steven', this is a good example of his progressive-style lyrics, really interesting and sometimes pretty twisted. This is also demonstrated on another concept album, 'From the inside', which was based on his experiences in a mental hospital! Another good album to give a listen is 'Dada', a really creapy one, check out 'The Former Lee Walker', about a freek-child forgotten in the attick, and the really creapy opening track.
For something completely different check out Nightwish!
Thanks, sorry to go on, I don't normally do that!
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i!i!i!i!i! SqUiRrEl MoNkEy i!i!i!i!i!
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goose
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Posted: January 05 2005 at 15:04 |
Certif1ed wrote:
Celtic Frost were/are(?) a very progressive band indeed |
It's got to be "were", really haha, calling "Cold Lake" and "Vanity Nemesis" would be hardly short of tragic!
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Reed Lover
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Posted: January 05 2005 at 15:31 |
Squirrel_monkey wrote:
Hi, I'm new, really cool site!
Second one, Alice Cooper, another unusual suggestion as normally he's considered hard-rock or metal. Listen though to the right albums and you'll see that he too has experimented a bit. The really early stuff for a start, by the orrignal 'Alice Cooper Band', two very long experimental tracks from this era: 'Halo of Flies' and 'Black Juju'. If you go earlier still, before anyone liked them, you'll see that they were once really obscure. Later solo stuff also had a touch of the progressive, for example the 3 part ending of the concept album: 'Welcome to my nightmare', with the fantastic track 'Steven', this is a good example of his progressive-style lyrics, really interesting and sometimes pretty twisted. This is also demonstrated on another concept album, 'From the inside', which was based on his experiences in a mental hospital! Another good album to give a listen is 'Dada', a really creapy one, check out 'The Former Lee Walker', about a freek-child forgotten in the attick, and the really creapy opening track.
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
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Certif1ed
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Posted: January 05 2005 at 16:35 |
Check out the many threads that discuss progressive versus prog! In a simple sentence, progressive rock is not simply rock music that is a bit progressive, it is more than that.
ELO are not prog.
Alice Cooper is not prog.
Led Zeppelin are not prog.
Genesis are prog.
King Crimson are prog.
Get the idea?
I understand the confusion, though, when you see bands like Procul Harum, the Moody Blues and ELP in the archives...
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Squirrel_monkey
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Posted: January 05 2005 at 17:16 |
Still, I advise anyone to leave any prejudices asside and give the tracks/albums I listed a listen. Download them or something, I think they've got something to offer fans of the genre. Particuarly the early ELO that virtually no-one has heard.
Agreed, Led Zepplin are definately not prog, but the ELO and Alice Cooper I'm talking about are nothing like this - that's just the stuff you know, 'Mr Blue Sky' and 'School's out'. Say genesis, (one of my favorite bands), to most people and they say 'invisible touch', 'Jesus he knows me', same sort unfortunate branding for ELO - because no-one's heard their early stuff. Alice on the other hand has done about every type of Rock at some point, but it's the lyrics that are consistantly creepy/disturbing/interesting/clever/deep. I read the 'Wikipediea' definition of Prog-Rock,  , and the albums I listed, as well as others fit all the criterea. I thought this might not go down so well  .
Please, someone download: 'Daybreaker', 'Fire On High', 'Kuiama', 'In the hall of the mountain king', 'Steven', 'Da da', and 'Halo of Flies', and I'll be happy! 
P.S: ELO are listed on Proglands...
Edited by Squirrel_monkey
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i!i!i!i!i! SqUiRrEl MoNkEy i!i!i!i!i!
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Certif1ed
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Posted: January 05 2005 at 19:30 |
I've got all ELO's albums up to DISCOvery - I used to be a big fan, and still like their early stuff; but while much of it is undoubtedly progressive, it isn't prog to my ears. To give you an idea of how far back I go with ELO, I have a couple of albums by the Move as well
Listen to P.F.M. and enjoy some great Italian prog with orchestral flavours - they will surely convince you that ELO are progressive, but not prog. If you haven't heard them before, you're in for a real treat. If you have, then you'll know what I'm talking about.
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Bryan
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Posted: January 05 2005 at 20:22 |
I've only heard one Celtic Frost album, To Mega Therion, and I'm not really sure about calling them prog. That may have something to do with the fact that I really didn't like them, but it sounds more like pure black metal to my ears.
However, I would say Voivod is a definite must. No conventional metal bands have that many changes in their songs.
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Certif1ed
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Posted: January 06 2005 at 06:25 |
I think that Early Metallica deserve serious thought - especially in comparison to some of the Dream Theater CDs I've heard. DT may have keyboards and prog aspirations, but Metallica did it all first, sans keyboards.
If number of changes in a song is a measurement, then "...And Justice For All" is essential listening for anyone who likes prog metal. "Kill 'Em All" is the ultimate metal mould-breaker, from a time when everyone was trying to break the mould - the thrashing style is still prevalent today, and did not exist before that album, TTBOMK. Even so, "KEA" is not purely a thrash album, as "Seek and Destroy" testifies - and the album carries a large degree of "Hawkwind on speed on speed" about it. The final moments of "Metal Militia" are particularly devastating, and demonstrate that Metallica's fast playing was more about texture than simple, mindless thrash.
"Ride The Lightning" took it a quantum leap forwards; on the surface it sounds like a fast Metal album. Scratch that surface and there is something else at work; the thrashing is far more subtle - rhythms fly out of the textures, which take on all manner of flavours from wild thrash ("Ride the Lightning", "Trapped Under Ice") to Egyptian sounding power metal ("Creeping Death", "Call of Cthulu") to Black Sabbath on speed ("For Whom The Bell Tolls") and the wonderful "Fade to Black". This album puts several toes into prog territory, and is certainly more prog than most prog metal I've heard.
"Master of Puppets" is another quantum leap for the genre - the ultimate heavy metal album, that also remains a benchmark for prog metal. It does everything "RTL" does, but more so and then goes the extra mile or two. Dream Theater have performed this album in its entirity live - that is a good indicator of it's significance.
"...And Justice For All" is a clear attempt to define the genre of progressive metal, but I feel that "Master" had already done it. It's an incredibly brave album, given that Metallica lost the talent that was Cliff Burton and replaced him with Jason Newstead from Flotsam and Jetsam, who were second-rate at best.
I know that Metallica will not curry favour with many, especially those who are resistant to more "big" acts muscling in, but, like the best prog albums, Metallica's first 4 grow over time. I found myself trying to resist their music at first, back in 1984, as on the surface it just sounded like American rock played quickly - no big deal. It took many listens to properly "get it".
So, seriously, METALLICA!
What do you think?
Useful - "Into the Pandemonium" is the only Celtic Frost album I own, as I find their music generally too bizarre for my tastes. However, they are capable of some outrageously huge riffs and some original thought, from the music I have heard from this and some of their other albums. Some of "ITP" strays into proggy territory, and friends have played me tracks that sounded very prog to me.
VoiVod have changed a lot since they started - and I always associate their music with what they used to do (somewhat unfairly, perhaps, as it was fairly simple industrial-sounding thrash!). I think I'll spend some time re-discovering them, as I've only picked up on bits and pieces like the Floyd covers that they've done recently. Everything I've heard sounds very progressive - but hallmarked with a decidedly metallic seal...
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goose
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Joined: June 20 2004
Location: United Kingdom
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Posted: January 06 2005 at 12:29 |
Certif1ed wrote:
"Kill 'Em All" is the ultimate
metal mould-breaker, from a time when everyone was trying to break the
mould - the thrashing style is still prevalent today, and did not exist
before that album, TTBOMK.
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It did exist, even though
Metallica were one of the first to record a demo ("Hit the Lights,
1982, in fact), as well as the first to record an album. Overkill, as
well as a few other Bay Area bands (either Dark Angel or Death Angel
were one of them) were playing thrash in around '81 or '82. Overkill
formed in 1980 from another band, playing punk for a while but quickly
moving to thrash. Apparently Metal Church's 1980 demo "Red Skies" in
1981 is the very first recording of thrash, perhaps forgotten due to
their lack of a vocalist at the time but I haven't heard it (and don't
particularly want to!)
Certif1ed wrote:
"...And Justice For All" is a clear attempt to define the genre of progressive metal, but I feel that "Master" had already done it. It's an incredibly brave album, given that Metallica lost the talent that was Cliff Burton and replaced him with Jason Newstead from Flotsam and Jetsam, who were second-rate at best.
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...and went rapidly downhill after losing Jason
Certif1ed wrote:
VoiVod have changed a lot since they started - and
I always associate their music with what they used to do (somewhat
unfairly, perhaps, as it was fairly simple industrial-sounding
thrash!). I think I'll spend some time re-discovering them, as I've
only picked up on bits and pieces like the Floyd
covers that they've done recently. Everything I've heard sounds very
progressive - but hallmarked with a decidedly metallic seal... |
try:
Dimesion Hatross onwards (perhaps Killing Technology, too). Negatron is
apparently very weak, and the newest record is a bit different to
previous ones (perhaps production more than anything else). Check their
cover of 21st Century Schizoid Man, too!
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Certif1ed
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Joined: April 08 2004
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Posted: January 06 2005 at 13:28 |
goose wrote:
Certif1ed wrote:
"Kill 'Em All" is the ultimate metal mould-breaker, from a time when everyone was trying to break the mould - the thrashing style is still prevalent today, and did not exist before that album, TTBOMK.
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It did exist, even though Metallica were one of the first to record a demo ("Hit the Lights, 1982, in fact), as well as the first to record an album. Overkill, as well as a few other Bay Area bands (either Dark Angel or Death Angel were one of them) were playing thrash in around '81 or '82. Overkill formed in 1980 from another band, playing punk for a while but quickly moving to thrash. Apparently Metal Church's 1980 demo "Red Skies" in 1981 is the very first recording of thrash, perhaps forgotten due to their lack of a vocalist at the time but I haven't heard it (and don't particularly want to!)
I have albums by Dark Angel, Death Angel and Overkill. The former is pretty good - blindingly fast thrash, but the latter are both second-rate - Overkill don't really thrash properly. I remember hearing Metal Church and thinking they were third-rate (Venom level but without the outrageous image) - but maybe I was unfair, as by my own admission, I didn't "get" Metallica when I first heard them.
It's a bit like the Sex Pistols - everyone thinks they were the first British punk band, when there was already a punk scene in England - and, in fact, the Damned released the first punk album, "Damned, Damned, Damned", and the Vibrators released the second. "Nevermind the ..." was actually the third
Certif1ed wrote:
VoiVod have changed a lot since they started - and I always associate their music with what they used to do (somewhat unfairly, perhaps, as it was fairly simple industrial-sounding thrash!). I think I'll spend some time re-discovering them, as I've only picked up on bits and pieces like the Floyd covers that they've done recently. Everything I've heard sounds very progressive - but hallmarked with a decidedly metallic seal...
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try:
Dimesion Hatross onwards (perhaps Killing Technology, too). Negatron is apparently very weak, and the newest record is a bit different to previous ones (perhaps production more than anything else). Check their cover of 21st Century Schizoid Man, too!
I will do - thanks!
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goose
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Posted: January 06 2005 at 15:09 |
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I like Dark Angel (some people call them prog though, which seems a
little silly to me) and Death Angel I like the track "Mistress of Pain"
mainly for the stupidly high vocals.. Overkill I wasn't too thrilled by
either but, on the subject of covers, their version of Hymn 43 makes
for interesting listening!
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semismart
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 05 2004
Location: United States
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Points: 139
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Posted: January 18 2005 at 00:29 |
I have noticed some bands that are listed on the Archives whose inclusion surprised me  .
The bands are Nightwish, Kamelot and Rhapsody. While I personally like these bands I'm surprised that others (beside me) consider them Progressive.
My point is that if you are going to include these bands, similar bands should be included.
Nightwish - Within Temptation, Dreams of Sanity, Epica
Rhapsody / Kamelot - Heavenly, Mob Rules, Thy Majestie, Dark Moor, Freedom Call, Stratovarius, Sonata Arctica
Other bands the Archives might consider are Darzamat, Pettalom, Orchrist, Iced Earth and Artrosis.
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<i>Sports cars</i>, helping ugly men get sex since 1954.
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Rob The Good
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Joined: December 17 2004
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Posted: January 18 2005 at 04:41 |
My suggestion is: The Crazy World of Arthur Brown...Arthur Brown's Kingdom Come is already on the site, and The Crazy World (after Brown left) went on to become Atomic Rooster. Historically important!
Unfortunately, I, in my infinite wisdom, have posted my suggestion as a new topic in the Suggestions forum. Silly Rob. 
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And Jesus said unto John, "come forth and receive eternal life..."
Unfortunately, John came fifth and was stuck with a toaster.
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