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Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
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Points: 2839
Posted: December 09 2021 at 02:18
PS Snobb is partially correct about Ukraine, but he perhaps forgets that there's a huge distinction between different areas of Ukraine. Western Ukraine is completely culturally different than Eastern Ukraine.
I might also point out that the old USSR spanned 11 time zones and "360 different nationalities".
Also.
Americans like generalising about how wicked the USSR was and how the political system there was bad.
Eastern Europeans like generalising about how bad the USSR when they were part of the Soviet Union.
Everyone compares the Soviet Union to the British Empire or contrasts it against the political system of the US - which isn't "democracy", incidentally, but more "consumerism" (and arguably plutocracy). Well. Why not compare it to the Roman empire, then ? Just as utterly pointless.
There are other generalisations about how good / bad the USSR was (usually propaganda based but some with a factual basis).
Everyone will throw up historical incidents to illustrate points, and whilst events like the Holodomir are still in living memory, what happened in East Germany in 1960 or Czechoslovakia in 1968 bear little bearing on the present day. You might as well bring up the battle of Borodino in 1812. "No relevance".
There are hearsay reports on how Russians "long for the past" - having been there and spoken to the older generation, some do, some don't. The younger generation are quite different in outlook..... in some places. Go over the border to Georgia and the reverence for Stalin is just beginning to fade.
Russia is a big place, the term "Eurasian" was really coined in the 19th century as an insult to the Russian character. Part of Russia is Western, in geography and outlook, part is Eastern. I've stood at what some people consider the "border" - edge of the Volga - although others tend to look at the Ural mountains as the dividing line. Yes, you can factor in population numbers, but you can do that with any country. The outlook for Russia is Western, rather than Eastern. Power exists in Moscow and St Petersburg, not in the Kamchatka peninsula.
"Russia has always tried to expand". Newsflash - most countries have a history of trying to expand in terms of territory. This includes the USA, and !!! Hello from England, where we used to be experts at it. War is generally economic in nature, or it was when I was doing a degree in History back in the early 90's.
So what we get here is the standard internet argument where people present baseless opinion as knowledge (the situation is far more complicated and not black and white) which is coloured by nationality and prejudice and, in most cases, bears almost no relation to the current situation.
Joined: February 24 2020
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Posted: December 09 2021 at 02:59
^ Very good and sensible post.
I'm an individual, and unless I have to speak with my national ego, I prefer to speak to the individuals. I believe in every culture/nation, there are individuals that I can communicate well with. Oh, and unless I'm provoked, I never speak with my national ego.
Joined: May 23 2013
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Posted: December 09 2021 at 03:08
It's the best way of doing it. ;-)
You just can't describe entire nations based on generalisations. Russia spans 11 time zones and has a population of 145 million. Historically, you can go back to probably Ivan IV (1533) if you want to dig out examples.
Russia today is not the Russia of 1991, 1999 or even 5 years ago. It's a country in a state of change. So is Ukraine. it's not 1941 any more. I've seen Ukraine change massively over the last few years - we do a lot of business with Ukraine. Which is really - ethnically and culturally - a loose confederation of nations.
Eastern Europe is no longer the Soviet Union, and even when it was, the different nation states which made up the FSU were totally different in character. For example, you couldn't compare East Germany with, say, Belarus. (Funny how no one's mentioned Belarus in connection with current events yet.)
I was engaged to a Russian, speak some Russian, have visited Russia and deal with Eastern Europe on a daily basis in my job. I have a degree in History as well. And I don't feel completely qualified to express an opinion on the current Ukraine / Russia conflict, as it's highly complicated.
I tend to ask my Ukrainian friends in both Eastern and Western Ukraine about it. And their opinions vary.
It's not black and white, but it's certainly not understandable by generalisation or personal opinion / prejudice.
Joined: February 24 2020
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Posted: December 09 2021 at 03:44
Davesax1965 wrote:
It's the best way of doing it. ;-)
You just can't describe entire nations based on generalisations. Russia spans 11 time zones and has a population of 145 million. Historically, you can go back to probably Ivan IV (1533) if you want to dig out examples.
Russia today is not the Russia of 1991, 1999 or even 5 years ago. It's a country in a state of change. So is Ukraine. it's not 1941 any more. I've seen Ukraine change massively over the last few years - we do a lot of business with Ukraine. Which is really - ethnically and culturally - a loose confederation of nations.
Eastern Europe is no longer the Soviet Union, and even when it was, the different nation states which made up the FSU were totally different in character. For example, you couldn't compare East Germany with, say, Belarus. (Funny how no one's mentioned Belarus in connection with current events yet.)
I was engaged to a Russian, speak some Russian, have visited Russia and deal with Eastern Europe on a daily basis in my job. I have a degree in History as well. And I don't feel completely qualified to express an opinion on the current Ukraine / Russia conflict, as it's highly complicated.
I tend to ask my Ukrainian friends in both Eastern and Western Ukraine about it. And their opinions vary.
It's not black and white, but it's certainly not understandable by generalisation or personal opinion / prejudice.
One thing to add... What you'll experience in an alien culture intrinsically depends on who you are.
One of my co-worker friends stayed and worked in Iraq for years. He never said a bad thing about there and its people. Whilst, another friend of mine literally cursed there and their people. The latter annoys the hell out of me sometimes, BTW. (They don't know each other.) Another example is, I stayed and worked in Midyat/Mardin/Turkey for some time. I loved there and its people. Most of them were Kurds and Arabs. A housemate of mine literally hated everything about there, and he was counting the days to "escape" there. I believe there can be given countless similar examples.
Joined: August 20 2009
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Posted: December 09 2021 at 03:49
Sean Trane wrote:
Mirakaze wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Not to mention regional tensions inside the westerns countries like Ireland, GB (Scotland), Spain (Basque, Catalan), France (Corsican & Bretons), Belgium (Flemish & Walloons), Netherlands (Frisians), Italy (Sardinia & Sicily, Liga of the North) etc....
Getting a bit off-topic but the Frisians don't belong in this list at all. There is a movement in the Dutch part of Frisia advocating for greater autonomy and cultural recognition, but there's no real Frisian independence movement, let alone "regional tensions" or any real ethnic hatred between Frisians and Hollanders.
just testing if I was being read at all.
Though I work in West-Friesland (between Alkmaar & Den Helder), and we don't have Mennonite or Amish villages in our area, the people's Dutch is quite hard to understand.
Hugues, I've been based in Den Helder for a few years around two decades ago, how didn't we met?
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Posted: December 09 2021 at 03:51
Indeed, very sensible commentaries by Davesax1965. Can't express it better.
However, I would add that as a child in times of Perestroika and a teenager in the 1990s I have never heard anybody around me (including occasional elder companions, occasional elder bygoers, bystanders) speaking about the 1932-33 famine. The massive talks began in the 2000s. It could be a result of traumatic experience, for sure. Collective amnesia. But still, the whole Holodomor issue is utterly political. There was also a 1946-47 famine in Ukraine, hardly planned by anybody. I suppose, there was a famine-alike situation in many European countries after WW2... There were many tragic pages in our history, in the world history. After all, the 1930s were a time of Great Depression, also a famine-alike situation.
Certainly, this is a typical internet discussion with no solution, no agreement, a no-win discussion. However, several wise sentences appear here and there in the process.
To me, certainly three Baltic countries were occupied by the USSR. East and Central European countries were occupied by the USSR. The USSR acted as any other huge empire, they defended their borders by increasing the layer of buffer zone states. Notice that the Soviet Union had rather cold relations with Yugoslavia and Albania - because these countries did not lie on the direct way from Germany to the USSR and therefore were unuseful as the shield against possible future threat from Capitalist Germany.
Is it legal, is it humane to use tens of millions of people as the living shield? No. Who cares? How many of us wake up every morning with a thought of sympathy towards poor Africans and Asians that do not even have clean water to drink? Not me, honestly. It's just life as it is.
As the homeland, to me the USSR (quite like John Bonham to his children) is a rather nice cute entity. In terms of material goods, their variety and accessibility, the USSR was definitely a loser. In terms of ethereal non-material atmosphere, feelings, hints, impressions, memories, glimpses of glory, moments of deeper understanding of life/universe/everything - the USSR had a mystical quality.
Have you known, for example, that both Victory Day (over nazis) celebrated in Russia on May 9 and the day Yuri Gagarin flew to space both happened on the third day after Orthodox Christian Easter. In 1945 it was on May 6, in 1961 - April 9. Catholics and Protestants celebrated Easter on April 1 in 1945 and on April 2 in 1961. What in the world should that mean?! Going deeper, Yuri is the native Russian variant of the name Georgy; May 6 is the Orthodox Christian feast of Saint George the Victory-Bringer, saint patron of Russia, Moscow, Georgia (homeland of Stalin, btw!) and the UK... At the time the king of the UK was George. And Berlin was taken by Soviet troops under Marshal Georgy Zhukov command. Plus to that, Marshal Ivan Konev fought the nazis in Czechoslovakia effectively helping Zhukov. Konev loosely means Horseson in Russian. Saint George went to Berlin on a Horse... Supported by George in the Britain Isles. Saint George also flew to space first. Russian George...
Not to even mention that Nikita Khrushchev, the last of the Soviet rulers that openly publicly despised Christianity, was removed from office by his atheist colleagues on the Orthodox Christian feast of The Intercession Of The Mother Of God (October 14), a very Russian feast traditionally connected to the protection of the motherland from its enemies... Accidentally?
And in North Korea they sure play the bloody fool, trying to create a cruel parody. They better become Capitalist. Their parody simply won't work. Why? Maybe, because they do not have any saint patrons... Who knows?..
Edited by Woon Deadn - December 09 2021 at 03:59
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Joined: August 20 2009
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Points: 3584
Posted: December 09 2021 at 03:56
Shadowyzard wrote:
One thing to add... What you'll experience in an alien culture intrinsically depends on who you are.
One of my co-worker friends stayed and worked in Iraq for years. He never said a bad thing about there and its people. Whilst, another friend of mine literally cursed there and their people. The latter annoys the hell out of me sometimes, BTW. (They don't know each other.) Another example is, I stayed and worked in Midyat/Mardin/Turkey for some time. I loved there and its people. Most of them were Kurds and Arabs. A housemate of mine literally hated everything about there, and he was counting the days to "escape" there. I believe there can be given countless similar examples.
Iraq is probably too specific place, especially now, to be taken as an example of any form. I'm working with people from Iraq for last some months, having few interviews every day (face to face). Them are Iraqi Kurds, and Iraqi Yazidis and Iraqi Arabs. Each of above mentioned groups has nothing too much in common, them hardly accept they are all Iraqis at all. Each has their own problems, and their own trueth , their own vison how the world turns, and those visions are often polarly different
Joined: February 24 2020
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Posted: December 09 2021 at 04:07
^ Thank you for sharing your observation. I presume you're right. My friends worked there many years ago. BTW, Turkey is also similar. People vary from black to white. (I'm not talking in the racial sense, hahah.)
But I believe, if you have some decency, you still can get on well with people with very different cultural backgrounds. I even went to a vegan pub in Ankara and ate a vegan burger and talked to some vegans. Lucky me, they didn't ask if I'm a vegan. Hahah. I wouldn't hide that I'm not, and they could do me some nasty things!
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Posted: December 09 2021 at 06:20
snobb wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Though I work in West-Friesland (between Alkmaar & Den Helder), and we don't have Mennonite or Amish villages in our area, the people's Dutch is quite hard to understand.
Hugues, I've been based in Den Helder for a few years around two decades ago, how didn't we met?
Well our respective profile mention Brussels & Vilnius, not Alkmaar & Den Helder , so that didn't help
(I suppose you are/were there for the NATO base?)
Been in Alkmaar since 2004 so I don't know if our paths would've crossed back then, though.
Are you still around? If so, you will be my first 2022 guest at home.
let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
Joined: August 20 2009
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Posted: December 09 2021 at 06:38
nah, I've been a regular in Den Helder (and passing Alkmaar by train from Amsterdam) between 2002 and summer of 2004. Worked for Shell as sub-contractor from Den Helder heliport. Haven't been there since then though
Joined: May 23 2013
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Posted: December 10 2021 at 03:10
Snobb, it might interest you to know that there was a large Ukrainian population in Manchester, UK some years ago. Well, generally in England.
Most came over as a result of WW2: they were hilfswillige in the main, in other words, prisoners of war who'd been fighting on the German side. (30% of the 6th Army at Stalingrad were non German, of course.)
With a lot of them, Ukraine had disappeared under Soviet rule and they had nowhere to go back to. I've known quite a few. Most were very prejudiced against Russians, of course (not surprising ! ) and most anti Russian sentiment came from them.
You're right about the holodomir, rarely mentioned in Ukraine, now. But these old soldiers remembered it with a vengeance.
People outside the Soviet Union (and even formerly inside it) have very different opinions about Russia. Even Russians have very different opinions about Russia. I've heard people from Moscow and St Petersburg say that anyone from Southern Russia is mad, or go on about chernozhopi (literally "black arses", charming) from ethnic Russia. Siberians can be very aloof as well: treating Russia as one entity is like treating Europe or the USA as being one collective whole. It isn't the case.
Joined: May 23 2013
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Posted: December 10 2021 at 03:18
Woon Deadn wrote:
Indeed, very sensible commentaries by Davesax1965. Can't express it better.
However, I would add that as a child in times of Perestroika and a teenager in the 1990s I have never heard anybody around me (including occasional elder companions, occasional elder bygoers, bystanders) speaking about the 1932-33 famine. The massive talks began in the 2000s. It could be a result of traumatic experience, for sure. Collective amnesia. But still, the whole Holodomor issue is utterly political. There was also a 1946-47 famine in Ukraine, hardly planned by anybody. I suppose, there was a famine-alike situation in many European countries after WW2... There were many tragic pages in our history, in the world history. After all, the 1930s were a time of Great Depression, also a famine-alike situation.
Certainly, this is a typical internet discussion with no solution, no agreement, a no-win discussion. However, several wise sentences appear here and there in the process.
To me, certainly three Baltic countries were occupied by the USSR. East and Central European countries were occupied by the USSR. The USSR acted as any other huge empire, they defended their borders by increasing the layer of buffer zone states. Notice that the Soviet Union had rather cold relations with Yugoslavia and Albania - because these countries did not lie on the direct way from Germany to the USSR and therefore were unuseful as the shield against possible future threat from Capitalist Germany.
Is it legal, is it humane to use tens of millions of people as the living shield? No. Who cares? How many of us wake up every morning with a thought of sympathy towards poor Africans and Asians that do not even have clean water to drink? Not me, honestly. It's just life as it is.
As the homeland, to me the USSR (quite like John Bonham to his children) is a rather nice cute entity. In terms of material goods, their variety and accessibility, the USSR was definitely a loser. In terms of ethereal non-material atmosphere, feelings, hints, impressions, memories, glimpses of glory, moments of deeper understanding of life/universe/everything - the USSR had a mystical quality.
Have you known, for example, that both Victory Day (over nazis) celebrated in Russia on May 9 and the day Yuri Gagarin flew to space both happened on the third day after Orthodox Christian Easter. In 1945 it was on May 6, in 1961 - April 9. Catholics and Protestants celebrated Easter on April 1 in 1945 and on April 2 in 1961. What in the world should that mean?! Going deeper, Yuri is the native Russian variant of the name Georgy; May 6 is the Orthodox Christian feast of Saint George the Victory-Bringer, saint patron of Russia, Moscow, Georgia (homeland of Stalin, btw!) and the UK... At the time the king of the UK was George. And Berlin was taken by Soviet troops under Marshal Georgy Zhukov command. Plus to that, Marshal Ivan Konev fought the nazis in Czechoslovakia effectively helping Zhukov. Konev loosely means Horseson in Russian. Saint George went to Berlin on a Horse... Supported by George in the Britain Isles. Saint George also flew to space first. Russian George...
Not to even mention that Nikita Khrushchev, the last of the Soviet rulers that openly publicly despised Christianity, was removed from office by his atheist colleagues on the Orthodox Christian feast of The Intercession Of The Mother Of God (October 14), a very Russian feast traditionally connected to the protection of the motherland from its enemies... Accidentally?
And in North Korea they sure play the bloody fool, trying to create a cruel parody. They better become Capitalist. Their parody simply won't work. Why? Maybe, because they do not have any saint patrons... Who knows?..
Just an aside. ;-) My parents met Yuri Gagarin when he visited England - 12th of July 1961. They were both working at an engineering factory which Yuri visited and were both 10 feet away from him as he made a speech.
My mum, who is very eccentric, said "Yuri gave her *that* look...... " - I said oh yes, Mum, I could have been Yuri Gagarin's son, if you got the chance. ;-)
Anyway, to return the favour, last time I was in Russia, I went to visit his grave in the Moscow Kremlin wall. ("Daddy !!! ") ;-)
So this probably explains where my fascination with Russia came from. ;-)
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Posted: December 10 2021 at 04:37
Davesax1965 wrote:
PS I was in Rotterdam, 98 - 2000 as well. ;-) IT specialist at the time. ;-)
I've been working in Rotterdam in a single project in a port, summer 2002 for a few months. Moved to Holland after few yrs in UK, Low Lands are great place to live I would say :) Just not Rotterdam, no way :O Amsterdam is a place!
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Posted: December 10 2021 at 06:57
Motivated by some things I read in this thread, I spent a lot of time last night questioning my friend Basia about life in Soviet dominated Poland in the 80s, particularly the years of strict martial law, 81 to 83.
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Posted: December 10 2021 at 08:51
Easy Money wrote:
Motivated by some things I read in this thread, I spent a lot of time last night questioning my friend Basia about life in Soviet dominated Poland in the 80s, particularly the years of strict martial law, 81 to 83.
An average old enough Pole undoubtedly dislike Russia, the USSR. The roots of mutual enmity are centuries deep. First of all, Poland was strictly Catholic country. Second, it was a typical Capitalist democratic western style place: its kings had constant conflicts with the noblemen, a democracy that is. Russia is Eastern Orthodox Christian since 988 AD. Also Russia used to rely on a centrified "vertical of power" with "a kind czar and his evil noblemen".
Even nowadays in Russia Catholics are (unofficially) perceived as strange if not thoroughly alien people. For example, if Russian music video makers want to somehow laugh at the Christianity, they traditionally use characteristically Catholic clothing, interiors, Catholic three-dimensional elliptic halos around saints' heads (in Orthodox Christianity halos are drawn in two dimensions as circles like in Buddhism), Catholic rows of seats (in Russian Orthodox Christian churches there are only several benches along the walls for those who are not able to stand during the service), Catholic gothic architecture.
You may look at this Russian music video to see a proof to my words. Its creators and the singer himself have indeed heard some bad words from various groups of Russian Christians about the video, but practically nobody on official level in Russia cared about it, and the public in general stood silent - because the church, the monks, the priest/bishop in the video are unmistakably Catholic... The singer is by the way an Orthodox Christian himself... If you're Catholic, the video will offend you. In Russia there's a law about offending the feelings of religious believers - but since the video doesn't concern directly Orthodox Christians, Muslims (who are too hot-blooded to touch them) or Judaists (who are, you know, it's the Jews' religion), nobody in Russia said an official powerful word of criticism against the creators of the video. Nobody sued them.
Apart from that, Poland is your typical fine not-that-big cosy European country. Russia pretends to be messianic, at all possible costs - quite like the USA. I personally think of USA/Russia confrontation as the continuing contest between the West Roman Empire (USA) and East Roman Byzantine Empire (Russia).
Given that, with all my respect and love to your friend Basia, I can easily predict what she has told you. Polish girls are terrifically beautiful. And I love Polish language, Polish culture. They are nice people. Poland and Russia are simply incompatible, they are very different in their approach. their views, their understanding of their role in the Universe.
Edited by Woon Deadn - December 10 2021 at 08:56
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Posted: December 10 2021 at 09:00
^ Yes, she was not too fond of Soviet occupation, but Russian people she is fine with. Her best friend here in the states is Luba who is from Russia, far Eastern Russia, beyond the Urals. And you are correct about Polish women, definitely preferable to americans.
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Posted: December 10 2021 at 09:03
Davesax1965 wrote:
Just an aside. ;-) My parents met Yuri Gagarin when he visited England - 12th of July 1961. They were both working at an engineering factory which Yuri visited and were both 10 feet away from him as he made a speech.
My mum, who is very eccentric, said "Yuri gave her *that* look...... " - I said oh yes, Mum, I could have been Yuri Gagarin's son, if you got the chance. ;-)
Anyway, to return the favour, last time I was in Russia, I went to visit his grave in the Moscow Kremlin wall. ("Daddy !!! ") ;-)
So this probably explains where my fascination with Russia came from. ;-)
Russia is definitely like John Bonham, again. You either like her with all her drunken tricks or not. Both attitudes have equal rights to exist and be shared and discussed.
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Posted: December 10 2021 at 09:18
Woon Deadn wrote:
An average old enough Pole undoubtedly dislike Russia, the USSR. The roots of mutual enmity are centuries deep. First of all, Poland was strictly Catholic country. Second, it was a typical Capitalist democratic western style place: its kings had constant conflicts with the noblemen, a democracy that is. Russia is Eastern Orthodox Christian since 988 AD. Also Russia used to rely on a centrified "vertical of power" with "a kind czar and his evil noblemen".
Yet one shouldn't generalise too much... I have a very good Latvian friend, one Polish, and another from Czech Republic. They're all dead against Soviet rule (and none of them is orthodox, two atheist one catholic, guess who ) but have a big love for Russian culture, literature, music.
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