Russia/Ukraine tensions - Any concern?

Easy Money wrote: Lewian wrote: Easy Money wrote: I visited East Germany in the early 80s and it was the most unhappy place i have ever seen, zero night life, zero anything except a bare existence and plenty of military parades for western tourists like myself. I don't know whom you met but I know lots of people who lived in East Germany at the time (I'm writing as a West German who didn't live that far from the old border). It wasn't a happy time but nightlife they had for sure! And there's some of that nostagia for that time, too, that Woon Deadn has mentioned, maybe not as much as in Russia, but still.  I was in East Berlin, summer of 1983. It was dead as a doorknob by 8 pm. From my high rise hotel room I could see the nightlife on the west side. 1983 was near the end of soviet martial law in many countries, so maybe they were still under some restrictions. I would also imagine things were stricter in East Berlin than other parts of the country.

I used to live in Söke/Aydın which is about 15-20 kilometres from Kuşadası. It is also very close to Bodrum, İzmir, Çeşme etc. In Söke, when the sun is (about to be) down, you're like in an uncanny ghost town. Dangerous too. But, just some kilometres away, you can have all kinds of fun till the morning. I'm clueless about East Germany, but it could be similar there too.

I'm clueless about East Germany.

Edited by Shadowyzard - December 08 2021 at 04:04

snobb wrote: my wife is from Serbia :))))))

My bad, thinking of another friend apparently.   

my wife is from Serbia :))))))

Back to Ukraine, there in fact are two Ukraines in one nowadays. Being for centuries a part of Western Civilization (as part of Great Dutchy of Lithuania and later a part of Poland-Lithuania Commonwealth state), eastern part of it has been lost for Russian Empire. Western Ukraine stayed part of Europe till WWII (as Part of Austro-Hungarian Empire, Poland, etc). Eastern part experienced heavy russification, after WWII both parts stayed occupied by Russia as part of USSR.

Western Ukraine never accepted Eurasian occupation, Eastern Ukraine has been quite loyal, often pro-Russian. As post-Soviet state, Ukraine was a conglomerate of two quite different mentalities, that's the reason of many their problems. Still, after some last years, after Russian occupied Crimea and part of E.Ukraine, de facto they pushed bigger part of Ukrainians towards West, forming new pro-European nation. This way, Russian lost one of the very few friends in the worlds they ever had

Easy Money wrote: Okay Roger, I was talking about people who were raised in soviet bloc countries and the stories they tell about martial law, disappearing relatives, empty store shelves etc. As far as Russians go, I've known quite a few Russians, once more part of the territory when you are a music teacher. I used to teach in San Francisco and there is a very large Russian community there. Russians are a unique bunch and I would not try to speak for them, if you know some Russians who preferred the USSR, then I wouldn't argue with that, and I wouldn't be surprised much, although most Russians I know in the states wanted to get away from the USSR. On the other hand, I have Russian friends who tell me about relatives back home who love Putin and the old days. But this is not the same as living in an eastern bloc country. As I already mentioned, I've never met anyone who thinks living under martial law is preferable.

I have already said before that I wasn't talking about the experience in the Eastern Bloc but in Russia itself. Countries like Poland or Czech Republic have done well after the breakup of the USSR. Russia as such hasn't. It has stabilized under Putin but the Yeltsin years were disastrous. This is what I had said too in my first post on this topic. That Putin enjoys a lot of support precisely because of the chaos of the 90s. And Putin himself said something to the effect that the collapse of the USSR was the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century but that only a fool would want it back. That sums it up well. I will add here that along the lines of what snobb said, in the Central Asian region, an authoritarian regime is seen as the norm and not as a horrible aberration. So the notion of a govt that provides enough for people to get by but points guns at dissenters plays very differently there as compared to Europe.

Sean Trane wrote: and the really bad guy is.....

and the really bad guy is..... 

rogerthat wrote: Easy Money wrote: ^ People not being out and about because of crime could also apply to parts of the US. I do live in the murder capital of the US and there are some neighborhoods that you do not wander about at night, but comparing that to soviet Germany is like comparing apples and oranges. Why was no one out at 8 pm in soviet Germany, why was nothing open? Maybe everyone was at home dreaming of great communist utopia. That's East Germany and not Russia or Ukraine. This has been pointed out to you already. So if you would rather go by your experience in East Germany than what people living in Ukraine say, then oh well, gonna leave it there.

In former Warsaw Block, Eastern Germany was kind of a "wet dream", their life standard was highest, even young KGB spy Putin succeeded to move there for buying his first car, the "Lada".

Both Russia and Ukraine were way different - corruption, empty shops' shelves, thousands of drunk workers returning back home after shift from their factories.
Speaking about mid 80s - absolute system decay (because of dramatically low oil export prices, mane engine of SU economics). Indifferent people, no-future mentality, even no-today...

Main Westerners problem is they somehow counting Russia as European country what it is not and never was.   True, their educated elite is strongly Europe-influenced, at least for last two hundred years, but the rest of population (i.i. more than 100 mln)are not much different mentally from their Chinggis Khan era ancestors. They are still living in Great Empire, believing that one day really GOOD Tsar (or Khan, you chose) will come and their life will become much better. Them are waiting for detailed instructions from their authorities how to live, and expecting to get some bread and butter as a compensation for loyalty.

Because of my current job, I am interviewing face to face hundreds of people who just came to Europe from Central Asia (yes, current illegal migrants). You can't imagine what just regular Kurd or Iraqi Yazidi thinks how the world is turning on. Russia's mentality is right in the middle between them and Europe.

Westerners repeat same mistakes again and again trying to export democracy to the worlds, which are organized at absolutely different basis (Iraq, Afghanistan, etc, etc) Central Asian mentality is a way different and wouldn't change soon or ever. To understand what Russian thinks or will do, one need to start with understanding how "Eurasia" works

Edited by snobb - December 07 2021 at 23:21

Easy Money wrote: ^ I have also mentioned the recollections of many friends from other soviet countries. Based on personal experience and the recollections I have heard from others, I cannot possibly see much positive about the soviet empire and the countries that they kept under their thumb, often through brutal means. If it worked well for some Russians, no surprise there, they were not the country being occupied by force. I did visit other communist countries, they were better than East Germany, but still, no thanks. Here in the Memphis area, because I am a music teacher and someone who can supply wedding or party music, I have been recommended to the East European community. Its not unusual for immigrants from a certain part of the world to band together, and such is the case here. I know Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Russians, Polish people and more, The idea of any of these people saying something positive about the soviets is not going to happen, ever.

Again, this is what you don't get. Because you don't see it and people you have met (who either defected or just exited the clusterf**k after 1991) don't, doesn't mean everyone sees it that way. Nobody is saying the USSR was objectively good. Just that happiness or the lack of it doesn't get reduced to nightlife and the ability to roam around after 8 PM. It's much more relative. I am sure there are people who are genuinely, unironically happy even in Afghanistan right now.