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How to define and classify "Progressive Rock"?
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cstack3 View Drop Down
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I agree with the late Peter Banks, we should call it "Dave."
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

My comments to you, jamesbaldwin:

"Perhaps this classification is a little less extensive than that of Progarchives" 
It is, not least there where a Progressive artist to begin with, eventually ends as not Progressive, or the other way around as
"- The classification should follow the albums, not the groups."  I completely agree with that.

"- Not all jazz-rock fusion is progressive: it is not that of musicians who come from jazz: Davis, Hancock, Di Meola, Mahavishnu but neither is Steely Dan's pop-jazz (which I don't read here, however)"
right!

"- Electronic music is not progressive, or, at most we should distinguish between progressive rock and progressive electronic, as Rate Your Music does"   
agree!

"- Little about post rock is prog"
Well, I don't know what "post rock" you think of here, but my definition is surely limiting.

Thank you for your contribution.


Another problem is:

Does crossover prog exist?

I dont see Supertramp or Roxy Music in this kind of classification.
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Cristi View Drop Down
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Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:


Does crossover prog exist?

I don't see Supertramp or Roxy Music in this kind of classification.

well it exists, crossover prog is more or less prog lite, music that might be catchy, or even easy to listen to for some, but still have a bit of experimentation, outside the box thinking, going beyond the pop-rock song patterns. 

If you can think of other categories Supertramp and Roxy Music fit better, open a thread to discuss and we could find a better place for them. 
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

moshkito wrote:
"For me, the better/best idea is to consider it (properly!!!) as an evolution of the musical process as it will better fit things."

Here can I only say, I completely agree with this as a starting point.
For instance, I find it much better to label each album specifically instead of just label a band which may change it's music very much during it's existence.

Hi,

I am not a proponent of an "album" as the representative of this or that. We don't look at Victor Hugo as an example of this for one novel. We don't look at Ernest Hemingway as an example of this or that. We don't look at Pablo Picasso as an example of this or that ... they are considered ARTISTS because of the work they did, NOT BECAUSE OF ONE ALBUM or in this case novel, or painting.

This is important for me, for if "Progressive Music" is to make a step forward, it has to be raised to the level of ART where it deserves to be in ... instead of the level of a SONG, that most folks tend to look at it as.

There is more to gain about showing it as a valid, and VALUED, example of a great extension in music, that was done by electric instruments, and also showed a parallel universe within the jazz scene ... at pretty much the same time, although I think the jazz scene was much better developed in America, although not known, since the Film Studios owned all the Music Registration and Copyright machinery and they did not wish to give attention to anyone but THEIR ARTISTS ... think about this for a second! (And see the Tom Dowd special for some serious historical moments!). Rock music, got luckier with The Beatles and Rolling Stones, that ripped through it all even with many business folks thinking that the long hair folks would get nowhere at all (see worst business decisions ever on the net) ... and all of a sudden it all broke loose!

That a band "changed" is not a big deal ... we are not criticizing Picasso for his changes in style and then we are not criticizing Burroughs for his 52 pick up style of writing, or even the word plays by Peter Handke ... (no person on PA will EVER read one of those plays!!!) ... but we respect their work. Handke went on to write for Wm Wenders in a couple of films that we tend to like. So what he did had value after all? See the issue? 

Again, my biggest concern is that few folks here are interested and can see an ARTISTIC POINT OF VIEW and they will not get away from one album, because the next album destroys their analysis of their view of "progressive" ... and as such, the right thing to do is to look at the person ... at the artist ... NOT THE FAN ... or what I call top ten.

It's your book ... the depth of it is in relating it to music history, not to rock history is meaningless without a sure sense and understanding of the music history ... otherwise, this is just another pedantic exercise in mass media studies ... just because of the fame of this album or that ... no one gives a sh*t about what "Epitaph" really meant and was about anyway ... that time is long gone, and many folks have a way of talking about it like it never happened! 

Deny history ... the best way to not learn anything is what I keep thinking!

Sorry I write so much, but this is important for me and my life, despite folks here not even bother reading it ... I am not sure they could read a War and Peace, or Moby Dick these days without their Cliff Notes. And they tend to look at this the same way, with most of history completely erased so that the meanings are put away and not worth a discussion.
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Also I'm still not quite sure how much of non-rock influences are meant to be covered by the "main genres", so raga, flamenco, and traditional music from Ghana yes, blues and hip hop no? On what basis?

By the way, Hip Hop is included by the definition I propose as it's a part of Rock.
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^ I always make a point of listening to all of the albums by an artist as I like to hear the *progression* from one album to the next. By the way, I've no idea what "Cliff Notes" are and you can count me amongst those who've never read War and Peace or Moby Dick as I don't generally read fiction - apart from Labour Party manifestos. Wink
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Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Another problem is:

Does crossover prog exist?

I dont see Supertramp or Roxy Music in this kind of classification.

That thing didn't exist when I wrote this article, and anyway, I only operate with "main sub-genres". 
If Crossover Prog does fullfil the requirements of the proposed definition, it can be considered as Prog by this definition. If so, it could be a part of "my" Eclectic Prog.

The same concerning Supertramp and Roxy Music (except from the comment about Eclectic Prog?), but I better say here, I don't see any reason for very specific musical anlysis in this discussion but rather discuss some general principles concerning definition and classifing.

And jamesbaldwin, be sure to have seen my comment to you concerning Jazz Fusion - which the proposed definition doesn't consider as Prog.




Edited by David_D - November 20 2021 at 12:04
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Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

I agree with the late Peter Banks, we should call it "Dave."

Edit:
It may seem to me that you find my way to try to influence the defining process of Prog being maybe somehow dictatorian. If that's the case, I think it would be good to discuss it here.


Edited by David_D - December 04 2021 at 01:06
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Another problem is:

Does crossover prog exist?

I dont see Supertramp or Roxy Music in this kind of classification.

That thing didn't exist when I wrote this article, and anyway, I only mention "main sub-genres". 
If Crossover Prog does fullfil the requirements of the proposed definition, it can be considered as Prog by this definition. If so, it could be a part of "my" Eclectic Prog.

The same concerning Supertramp and Roxy Music (except from the comment about Eclectic Prog?), but I better say here, I don't see any reason for very specific musical anlysis in this discussion but rather discuss some general principle concerning definition and classifing.

And jamesbaldwin, be sure to have seen my comment to you concerning Jazz Fusion - which the proposed definition doesn't consider as Prog.


I better add here that there's a subjective element in the proposed definition, namely 
"2. be rather complex or at least to some extent experimental in another way than #1."
which makes it possible for each person decide exactly which bands/albums they will consider as Prog.


Edited by David_D - November 20 2021 at 08:06
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I don't generally read fiction - apart from Labour Party manifestos. Wink

LOL
Which doesn't mean, I agree with it, but it's funny. 


Edited by David_D - November 20 2021 at 16:19
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

        Further, I propose following main sub-genres:

* Symphonic Prog, incl. Neo-Symphonic (Neo-Prog), and defined as Rock fused with Classical music from any  country in the entire world

* Progressive Jazz-Rock, incl. most of Canterbury

* Progressive Folk-Rock, defined as Rock fused with Traditional/Folk music from any country in the entire world

* Electronic Prog

* Avant-Prog/RIO and Zeuhl

* Psychedelic Prog, incl. Progressive Space-Rock

* Progressive Metal, defined as all the sub-genres of Metal which can be considered Progressive

* Eclectic Prog

* Krautrock

and finally

* Progressive Post-Rock, defined as the more avant-garde influenced part of Post-Rock

   and Prog is here of course short for Progressive Rock.


I think it is important to propose the characteristics of each of these genre's that differentiate it from the others. For example, use of djent, double-base percussion, and coarse raspy vocals would often indicate Prog Metal, but not Symphonic. Heavy use of synths with little or no vocals might indicate Electronic, or maybe Krautrock, but probably not Prog Folk.

My thinking on this topic (several years ago) gave me a tentative list of musical characteristics that could be used to help differentiate genres. (This list is just a starting point -- it certainly needs work)

Timing Characteristics:
Tempo (low to high)
Time signatures (stable, varied)
Rhythm complexity (none, mono- or poly-rhythmic)
Notable rhythmic structure (timing of down/back beat, reggae, soca rhythm, syncopation, etc)

Melody Characteristics:
Note modulation (none, slow bending, rapid bending, sustained, droned)
Melody (none, pleasant, angular, experimental, noisy)
Atmosphere (bright, dark, harsh, deep, shallow, resonant, tinny, soft, harmonic, ambient)

Instrumentation Characteristics:
Instrument composition (acoustic, electric, ethnic, brass, string, synthetic, etc)
Use of odd instruments (violin, sax, mellotron, flute, steel drums, nature sounds)
Guitar style (lead, vamping, chord strumming, repetitious, shred, etc)
Guitar effects (sustain, echo, fuzz, overdrive, djent)
Percussion (none, basic, virtuoso, double bass)
Electronics (synthesizers, sequencers, MIDI, looping, etc)
Instrument mastery (basic, advanced, virtuoso)

Structural Characteristics:
Composition complexity (low to high)
Composition type (melodic, melody/harmony, counterpoint, etc)
Density/layering (low to high)
Song structure (verse/chorus, chord progressions, 12-bar blues, experimental, etc)
Dynamics (low to high)
Musical Scale (Std western, blues, mid-eastern, eastern, atonal, etc)
Lead/Solos (none, some, many, alternating)

Vocal Characteristics:
Lyrical style (none, romantic, sci-fi, story telling, poetic, meaningless, invented language)
Vocal effects (none, autotune, distortion, scream, twangy, synthetic, etc)
Vocal type/style (solo, group, operatic, melismatic, spoken, rhythmic, torch, instrumental, chant, shout, etc)

Emotional Characteristics:
Energy level (low to high)
Mood (sad, neutral, happy)
Ethnic Influence (western, eastern, asian, european, multiple)
Cultural Influence (drugs, violence, sex, historic, fables, fantasy, etc)

I think for every genre you propose, you could evaluate how each of these characteristics apply. After all, when you put various artists/albums into a genre, you must have felt, perhaps subconsciously, that they all shared one or more similar characteristics. What I'm proposing is that you (we) work on defining what those characteristics are.
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Again, my biggest concern is that few folks here are interested and can see an ARTISTIC POINT OF VIEW 

Well, I must say about my self that the very most important thing to me is the music, and that is albums. I don't even think much about the artists, as they are just something earthly while the music is almost something heavenly, or in the best cases really heavenly, magic.
- For me it's as simple as that the artists are almost an obstruction to reach something heavenly, their music - sorry.
Edit:
Even sometimes, I wonder about how it is possible to do such magic (and thus think about musicians), but then I'm pretty sure that if I begin to dig in that it'll spoil the magic because the magic first comes into being in my head!
So, when I say, I'm Prog aficionado, it's very literally meant (music not artists).

Edit 2:
And so, moshkito, you have your perspective, and that's fine, but other people may have another. Smile


Edited by David_D - November 20 2021 at 22:58
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Another problem is:
Does crossover prog exist?

That thing didn't exist when I wrote this article, and anyway, I only operate with "main sub-genres". 
If Crossover Prog does fullfil the requirements of the proposed definition, it can be considered as Prog by this definition. If so, it could be a part of "my" Eclectic Prog.

Personally, I could imagine that quite a bit of the artists that are labelled Crossover, I would consider as a kind of Art Rock.
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Originally posted by wiz_d_kidd wiz_d_kidd wrote:

I think it is important to propose the characteristics of each of these genre's that differentiate it from the others. For example, use of djent, double-base percussion, and coarse raspy vocals would often indicate Prog Metal, but not Symphonic. Heavy use of synths with little or no vocals might indicate Electronic, or maybe Krautrock, but probably not Prog Folk.

I'd say your list can be very good to use as a more/rather exactly description of the different "sub-genres", but anything like that is by very purpose avoided in the proposed definition as it would have a limitating effect on which music could be included - the definition talks about what must be fulfilled to be called "Progressive Rock" and classified as the specified genres.


Edited by David_D - November 21 2021 at 01:35
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Everything is prog these days. End of discussion.
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Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

I would move Ozric Tentacles from Eclec to Psych.

I think it's better only discuss more general questions in this blog, but nevetherless, I can say here that in my point of view "Eclectic" is a good labelling of Erpland, as this album contains many elements of non Western music.
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

- Not all jazz-rock fusion is progressive: it is not that of musicians who come from jazz: Davis, Hancock, Di Meola, Mahavishnu 

Principially, I distinguish between "Jazz Fusion" and "Jazz-Rock". Jazz Fusion is obvious mostly Jazz oriented (say Bitches Brew), and thus can't be said being part of Rock, and then is not Prog (but can be a part of "Progressive Music"). Jazz-Rock, on the contrary, has strong Rock elements and can be considered as Prog (say Birds of Fire).

Edit:
In my point of view, the most important thing is not which genre the musicians come from but what kind of music they make at a certain point of time. The musical process is an evolution (right moshkito?). 

My point of view, when I ask myself if an album is prog, is this: what would prog lovers say if they saw it at the top of the prog album chart of all time?

Bitches Brew is definitely a groundbreaking jazz album, but it features on every jazz album chart. Undoubtedly we can speak of jazz rock, as well as jazz fusion, but it is jazz rock made by a jazz trumpeter with a jazz orchestra, however expanded.

It should be added that rock was born as rock songs: as songs withe vocals, not as an instrumental piece. The instrumental pieces have always been there but, the more you go towards the instrumental land, the more you move away from the specific field of the rock.

Now, therefore, I understand who wants to put Bitches Brew in the prog charts, undoubtedly it touches jazz rock and has influenced prog music, but in my opinion it remains jazz, it requires a completely different listening than the listening that requires prog-rock. (The same thing I can say for electronic music)

If you talk about McLaughin, it may be that his records are already less jazzed and more polluted by rock influences, we are on the border between genres, but I would not see any records of him in the first places of a prog chart.
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Another problem is:
Does crossover prog exist?

That thing didn't exist when I wrote this article, and anyway, I only operate with "main sub-genres". 
If Crossover Prog does fullfil the requirements of the proposed definition, it can be considered as Prog by this definition. If so, it could be a part of "my" Eclectic Prog.

Personally, I could imagine that quite a bit of the artists that are labelled Crossover, I would consider as a kind of Art Rock.

Yes, basically we are talkin about art-rock, and sometimes art rock is close to post rock.

Talk Talk, for example, with Spirit of Eden and Laughing Stock, are included in crossover prog but

arent they post rock? Or avantguarde?

We can admit the subgenre crossover prog or we can distribute the albums of that subgenre in the other genres, starting with the eclecti prog,





Edited by jamesbaldwin - November 20 2021 at 17:53
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:


Does crossover prog exist?

I don't see Supertramp or Roxy Music in this kind of classification.

well it exists, crossover prog is more or less prog lite, music that might be catchy, or even easy to listen to for some, but still have a bit of experimentation, outside the box thinking, going beyond the pop-rock song patterns. 

If you can think of other categories Supertramp and Roxy Music fit better, open a thread to discuss and we could find a better place for them. 

My question was referring to David's proposed classification, which lacks the prog crossover genre.

Here on PA there are many genres and, if I had to say the changes I would make, they would mainly concern other genres, not the crossover prog which is good for framing pop music with prog passages. Often it is art-rock, another difficult theme to frame.

Certainly crossover prog is a very varied genre, which if desired could be integrated into eclectic prog, an even wider genre that includes a bit of everything. But for me it can stay that way. Incidentally, I love the first two Roxy Music albums and I think at least one of them should be at the top of the chart.
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In my point of view, Art-Rock fits to "Prog Related", together with such as Bowie and Queen.



Edited by David_D - November 21 2021 at 01:22
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