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Discussion about Jazz Fusion

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Satoshi48 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Satoshi48 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Discussion about Jazz Fusion
    Posted: November 18 2021 at 23:46
I listened to Gary Burton, Larry Coryell and Miles Davis. Both three are credited to submit Jazz-Fusion. I wonder why Miles Davis’ Bitches Brew is acclaimed very important even more important than music which is much more earliet than Miles’ fusion (Gary Burton - Duster, Larry Coryell - Free Spirits) and what makes jazz fusion music?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tapfret Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2021 at 23:57
Moved to Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2021 at 23:57
Not to mention ...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2021 at 23:59
Isn't Jazz -Fusion just really a heavier form of Jazz but with a rock vibe. For me it doesn't fully exist until the seventies and Billy Cobham and co but I am a long way from being any kind of expert whatsoever on this subject.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2021 at 00:53
Miles was more popular so more attention was given to him. Personally, I don't understand why "Bitches Brew" is considered a fusion masterpiece.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2021 at 02:05
^ Bitches Brew is more like progressive jazz than it is 'Fusion', but it certainly let in a rock spirit.  I think one of the reasons jazz and rock were able to work together ~ other than the genetic relationship with Blues ~ is because both forms are based on playing more than studying.





Edited by Atavachron - November 19 2021 at 02:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2021 at 04:45
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Miles was more popular so more attention was given to him. Personally, I don't understand why "Bitches Brew" is considered a fusion masterpiece.

Agreed. He just wanted to stay relevant. Thanks to girlfriend/wife Betty Mabry, he was suddenly introduced to the music and very hip world of pop stardom, including Sly Stone and Jimi Hendrix, and he wanted in. This was especially noticeable in his change in clothing styles and glasses. 

The aforementioned albums and artists were certainly way ahead of Miles in terms of crossing over into the world of rock'n'roll--he was a master of absorbing the young shakers and movers in the music scene and then slowly adapting his music to those inputs. But, really, Bitches Brew is just a big three-day jam session that was notable for having so many young, adventurous musicians sitting in all at the same time. The music really isn't that great or even memorable. I'd much rather listen to Don Ellis or Gary Burton or Herbie Mann, Emergency! or John McLaughlin's Devotion or The Free Spirits, Larry Coryell, Mike Manieri, or the first Chicago, Santana, Weather Report, and Mwandishi albums.  
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2021 at 05:28
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Isn't Jazz Fusion just really a heavier form of Jazz but with a rock vibe. For me it doesn't fully exist until the seventies and Billy Cobham and co but I am a long way from being any kind of expert whatsoever on this subject.

As I've seen it, Jazz Fusion compared to and being distinguished from Jazz-Rock, is more Jazz oriented and incorporates other elements than Rock, quite often from not Western music. Jazz Fusion was invented about the same time as Jazz-Rock which, I would say, was invented in the second half of the 60's by bands like The Mothers/Frank Zappa, Soft Machine and others from the Canterbury scene, and some Rock musicians, as well.

Originally posted by Satoshi48 Satoshi48 wrote:

I wonder why Miles Davis’ Bitches Brew is acclaimed very important

About Miles Davis (and Bitches Brew) so, he has been very ifluential and innovative both in relation to Jazz Fusion and Jazz-Rock - but I can't imagine otherwise than a quite important part of it is, being an "idol".
Edit:
About Jazz-Rock, I can very much recommend the book  Jazz-Rock. A History (1998) by Stuart Nicholson .


Edited by David_D - November 20 2021 at 01:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dwill123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2021 at 06:30
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Miles was more popular so more attention was given to him. Personally, I don't understand why "Bitches Brew" is considered a fusion masterpiece.

The problem of Bitches Brew was the timing of its release.  When it came out it was so radically different people didn't know how to listen to it.  They couldn't get their arms around it.  Sort of like being rear ended and not knowing what just happened.  I tried for a long time and didn't get it until the release of The Mahavishnu Orchestra's "Inner Mounting Flame".  IMF gave me the needed frame of reference for what was going on with the music of BB.  To me Inner Mounting Flame is Bitches Brew with a little more structure to it.  Remove the structure and you've got Bitches Brew.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2021 at 15:11
There is an excellent Facebook group on Jazz-Rock Fusion, and this same topic is being discussed! 

This fellow makes a credible argument that Larry Coryell started it off:

Larry Coryell.
I was in the Jazz night clubs of NYC where and when it all began in the mid- late sixties. This article shares information regarding the origins of Jazz Rock Fusion:


Coryell was never my favorite Fusion artist (I prefer McLaughlin, Holdsworth, Goodsall RIP etc.), but he made an early contribution.

It is probably safe to say that JRF didn't exist before the invention of the electric guitar, so that puts a 1930s time-stamp on it.  Charlie Christian was probably very influential on the development of the style due to his innovation in guitar leads.  Rock hadn't been invented yet, but he propelled bebop along. 


Edited by cstack3 - November 19 2021 at 15:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2021 at 16:45
Originally posted by Satoshi48 Satoshi48 wrote:

I listened to Gary Burton, Larry Coryell and Miles Davis. Both three are credited to submit Jazz-Fusion. I wonder why Miles Davis’ Bitches Brew is acclaimed very important even more important than music which is much more earliet than Miles’ fusion (Gary Burton - Duster, Larry Coryell - Free Spirits) and what makes jazz fusion music?

Correct, Bitches Brew is hardly the first fusion album. It did receive a huge promotional push from Columbia records, it was fronted by a very charismatic and attention grabbing band leader and it featured an all-star cast of young jazz musicians, thus all the fuss.

I've been playing fusion and soul jazz professionally for many years. Here is a definition I wrote for another site:

Rock and RnB came from jazz in the 1940s via the jump blues genre. Needless to say, over the years jazz, rock and RnB have enjoyed a close relationship and have cross-influenced each other from the beginning. In the mid to late 60s, rock and RnB under went major changes with rock becoming much louder and more experimental under the influence of artists such as Jimi Hendrix and Cream, while RnB became more syncopated and abstract with the new funk sound created by James Brown, Bootsy Collins, Sly Stone and Larry Graham. Meanwhile, Latin jazz was undergoing similar experimental changes under the guidance of artists such as Hermato Pascoal and Flora Purim.

At this point in the mid to late 60s, any intersection between jazz, rock, funk and Latin became a radically different form of music that eventually came to be called fusion. Pioneers in the world of fusion include Larry Coryell, Jermy Steig, Gary Burton, Don Ellis, Chico Hamilton, Charles Lloyd, Jack DeJohnette, John McLaughlin, Tony Williams, Soft Machine, Brian Auger, Miles Davis, Joe Zawinul, Wayne Shorter, Chick Corea and Dreams (Billy Cobham and the Brecker Brothers)

Edited by Easy Money - November 19 2021 at 17:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2021 at 17:23
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