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Genesis, Nursery Cryme and their critics

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moshkito View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2021 at 23:10
Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

...
Yes, those are indeed some of the reasons why the production on Nursery Cryme (and many other early prog albums) is pretty bad. Of course I probably wouldn't be on this site if it was so bad as to be unlistenable! And here I am.

Hi,

I don't consider it "bad" ... it did not have the touch or the equipment, but WE STILL LISTEN TO IT, and that means that there was a FEELING and TOUCH by the musicians that was special and it is still loved today.

We have to separate the two, otherwise we will never know when an artist and special player/person/band comes around, expecting it to sound perfect. Heck, go to Harlem and listen to the kids playing on cans, buckets and every thing else, and making a lot of rap sound like really poor stuff in the end.

I have been to a lot of "live" concerts and events, and it is (in some ways) like a play when we used to say that there is a $50 dollar seat, and there is a $5 dollar seat, and the difference is horrendous ... in the $5 dollar seat you can not hear half of what is being said on the stage, compared to the first row of seats!

So we're saying something is bad because of where we sit? NOT ME .. I WANT TO HEAR IT with my ear to the ground (as Jim would say!), to ensure that it got to my ears ... not a silly reviewer or comment by so many folks that are totally out of time and context with the music altogether. Not very progressive of them, btw ... and that is what you might have stated. Half the stuff that is the "top ten" of the progressive material was not exactly well recorded, compared to the mid 70's and later ... but its feeling is special and important. Heck, Peter Hammill and VdGG were almost all "home recorded" (so to speak) in those early albums and none of us are complaining about it!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leggo My Proggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2021 at 01:14
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Early Genesis is generally overrated (I say this as someone who puts them in my top five bands). A comment by Silly Puppy above suggests they 'came of age' with SEBTP yet this is the album that contains Battle Of Epping Forest (too much larking about , if ELP did this they would have been panned beyond reason) , More Fool Me and I Know What I Like (yawn) . Fantastic other tracks admittedly but is it really enough? Possibly the only real masterpiece in the Gabriel era could have been Lamb if has been about 10 minutes shorter. They were the band of the 'filler' material but somehow they get away with a lot more than other bands (ie ELP) who had less filler and more technically innovative. It is correctly pointed out that the production of NC was Muddy . Yes it really was although it was fixed in 2007 thankfully.
For me their best albums are the four that followed Gabriel's departure.  The split did neither of them any harm in my book and both took progressive rock onwards in their own ways. Genesis streamlined it and became a bit commercial (a terrible sin) but they had developed as a much more powerful band especially holding their own live with the best around. That's just in my opinion of course!

Here is a bizarre take on The Lamb if anybody is curious. A "cover" album but it does not seem to follow any regard for the actual music on the album?  I am not sure why people would bother making this but here it is:







Edited by Leggo My Proggo - November 17 2021 at 01:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr prog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2021 at 14:34
Tull aren’t even in the HOF. Their album remix book set is the best collection in history
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2021 at 15:44
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

...
Yes, those are indeed some of the reasons why the production on Nursery Cryme (and many other early prog albums) is pretty bad. Of course I probably wouldn't be on this site if it was so bad as to be unlistenable! And here I am.

Hi,

I don't consider it "bad" ... it did not have the touch or the equipment, but WE STILL LISTEN TO IT, and that means that there was a FEELING and TOUCH by the musicians that was special and it is still loved today.

We have to separate the two, otherwise we will never know when an artist and special player/person/band comes around, expecting it to sound perfect. Heck, go to Harlem and listen to the kids playing on cans, buckets and every thing else, and making a lot of rap sound like really poor stuff in the end.

I have been to a lot of "live" concerts and events, and it is (in some ways) like a play when we used to say that there is a $50 dollar seat, and there is a $5 dollar seat, and the difference is horrendous ... in the $5 dollar seat you can not hear half of what is being said on the stage, compared to the first row of seats!

So we're saying something is bad because of where we sit? NOT ME .. I WANT TO HEAR IT with my ear to the ground (as Jim would say!), to ensure that it got to my ears ... not a silly reviewer or comment by so many folks that are totally out of time and context with the music altogether. Not very progressive of them, btw ... and that is what you might have stated. Half the stuff that is the "top ten" of the progressive material was not exactly well recorded, compared to the mid 70's and later ... but its feeling is special and important. Heck, Peter Hammill and VdGG were almost all "home recorded" (so to speak) in those early albums and none of us are complaining about it!

Yo,

When I say something is bad, and then I follow that up with "but I still listen to it," don't you think I already understand the point you just overexplained?
Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Philchem8 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2021 at 15:47
I was planning to avoid debating the quality of Genesis' music but seeing that comment get reposted, I thought I'll give my two-cents as Selling England By the Pound is one of my favourite albums. So far, I have not found an album by any artist that I consider perfect, so I won't try to defend every song, but point out that SEBTP is usually voted or considered among the top 5 Prog-Rock albums of all time. Firth of Fifth, Cinema Show and Dancing with the Moonlight Knight are among the great classics of that era and have been voted among the top 10 Genesis songs by 40,000 readers of Prog Magazine (check it out). Only Foxtrot comes close to that level of recognition. I'm not sure if early Genesis were as technically innovative as ELP - maybe not, but technical innovation is not the most important element that makes good music that endures through the years, in my view. Overall creativity and ability in musical construction, rhythm and melodies, as well as passionate execution, are all as important - and there I think the young Genesis was plentiful. Their complex arrangements and lyrics did not always quite work, but there was something undeniably new, adventurous, touching and beautiful, yet imperfect, in what they were doing. This is maybe why their music has held up better than ELP's in the long-run, even though at the time ELP was bigger. It's clear from Trespass that these were damn good musicians but still evolving and maturing. However, I feel that by SEBTP, their musicianship was astounding and as good as anything else at the time for what they were doing.






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Philchem8 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2021 at 15:50
Hhmm..this was in response to the post by Richard but I still have not figured out how to include the post I am responding to. Now you understand why I don't value as much technical ability
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2021 at 15:51
Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Tull aren’t even in the HOF. Their album remix book set is the best collection in history

Oh don't get me started on the rock hall. What kind of institution claiming to be home to only the greatest rock artists of all time has an annual induction model that's so limited they're still inducting acts from the 60's and 70's? Like, you've been around how long and you're just now deciding they're great? Just because you only want to induct a handful of artists a year at some big expensive ceremony with as many rock stars as you can get to come because your museum doesn't make enough profit on its own?? And then of course they're the constant snubbing. They didn't even nominate Yes until after Chris Squire passed away, and then they still went through a round where Yes were nominated but not chosen before they got inducted in the next round. Meanwhile all the members of Genesis are still alive and they've been in for ages. I'd love to just hand wave that as playing favorites to the band with more pop hits, but it's not like 90125 and Big Generator weren't huge sellers in their own right! I still hear Owner Of A Lonely Heart on the radio all the time, not to mention Yes' prog stuff had more hits than Genesis' prog! That's just the tip of the iceberg.

The Rock Hall, Rolling Stone, and Pitchfork. Three very famous hacks.
Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2021 at 09:37
So I just read this article.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/entertainment/music/news/that-night-in-small-city-ontario-that-phil-collins-became-a-frontman/ar-AAQRdJi?li=AAggNb9

It states "Fisk, then a second-year computer science student at the University of Western Ontario, took the only known photographs of the show on his father’s Praktica camera."

Some of you may know that I have posted pictures from that concert myself here on PA as I was also in attendance and shot from the second row centre stage on my Nikon FM.
I just wanted to correct history.
Carry on.




Edited by JD - November 18 2021 at 09:40
Thank you for supporting independently produced music
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2021 at 23:54
Originally posted by Philchem8 Philchem8 wrote:

I was planning to avoid debating the quality of Genesis' music but seeing that comment get reposted, I thought I'll give my two-cents as Selling England By the Pound is one of my favourite albums. So far, I have not found an album by any artist that I consider perfect, so I won't try to defend every song, but point out that SEBTP is usually voted or considered among the top 5 Prog-Rock albums of all time. Firth of Fifth, Cinema Show and Dancing with the Moonlight Knight are among the great classics of that era and have been voted among the top 10 Genesis songs by 40,000 readers of Prog Magazine (check it out). Only Foxtrot comes close to that level of recognition. I'm not sure if early Genesis were as technically innovative as ELP - maybe not, but technical innovation is not the most important element that makes good music that endures through the years, in my view. Overall creativity and ability in musical construction, rhythm and melodies, as well as passionate execution, are all as important - and there I think the young Genesis was plentiful. Their complex arrangements and lyrics did not always quite work, but there was something undeniably new, adventurous, touching and beautiful, yet imperfect, in what they were doing. This is maybe why their music has held up better than ELP's in the long-run, even though at the time ELP was bigger. It's clear from Trespass that these were damn good musicians but still evolving and maturing. However, I feel that by SEBTP, their musicianship was astounding and as good as anything else at the time for what they were doing.







Thank you , very interesting comments. Actually its a little known fact that Keith Emerson was a big fan of Genesis and supported them in the early days with many a kind word. It wasn't generally reciprocated but hey ho!

I think I was just commenting really on Genesis not being seen as one of the leading lights of the time. Just like Gentle Giant they were less inclined to use Bombast in the same way ELP did who were able to live with the likes of Zep and Purple by being that way. Context is very important. ELP were a festival band and great entertainers but that tends to get lost over time.

That all said I believe that Brain Salad Surgery is every bit as important and good as Selling England By The Pound.

Perfect albums? - neither of those IMO, I would go for Per Un Amico from that period.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Philchem8 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2021 at 15:49
I think you have a point- at least between 1970-72, like Gentle Giant, Genesis was more of a cult act (though I understand that 's not exactly what your are saying) but while I was too young to know at the time, I perceive that by 1973-74, they entered the major leagues of Prog-rock, at least in the UK, some of Europe and some other countries. Probably, this was not so in the US, but to a larger extent in Canada, where SEBTP eventually went platinum. For instance, Bruce Eder writes in All Music Guide:"their music blossomed with Nursery Cryme; their two subsequent albums, Foxtrot and SEBTP, would carry them in the realms of lyrical sophistication that would find them compared to TS Eliot and Ezra Pound, and ELP sound juvenile by comparison". Albeit this is probably an exaggeration and lyrics are not everything.
I wasn't aware that Keith Emerson was a fan of the Genesis until I saw someone posted the review here (thanks for that). Maybe it was not reciprocal but Tony Banks did recognize the influence of The Nice on their music. Per un Amico is an album I am still discovering.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cosmiclawnmower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2021 at 16:10

I wasn't aware that Keith Emerson was a fan of the Genesis until I saw someone posted the review here (thanks for that). Maybe it was not reciprocal but Tony Banks did recognize the influence of The Nice on their music. Per un Amico is an album I am still discovering.

[/QUOTE]
You're welcomeSmile

Genesis manager and Charisma label boss, Tony Stratton-Smith had been the manager of The Nice and their last couple of lps were on the Charisma label so no doubt TSS asked Keith to write something to promote the lp.. I remember reading somewhere that the working title for 'the Knife' was 'The Nice'...?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Philchem8 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2021 at 16:58
Ha, well let's hope that's not the only reason Emerson was "nice" to Nursery Cryme . Yeah also heard that about The Knife. The Nice would have been a very cynical title though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr prog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2021 at 17:46
Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Tull aren’t even in the HOF. Their album remix book set is the best collection in history


Oh don't get me started on the rock hall. What kind of institution claiming to be home to only the greatest rock artists of all time has an annual induction model that's so limited they're still inducting acts from the 60's and 70's? Like, you've been around how long and you're just now deciding they're great? Just because you only want to induct a handful of artists a year at some big expensive ceremony with as many rock stars as you can get to come because your museum doesn't make enough profit on its own?? And then of course they're the constant snubbing. They didn't even nominate Yes until after Chris Squire passed away, and then they still went through a round where Yes were nominated but not chosen before they got inducted in the next round. Meanwhile all the members of Genesis are still alive and they've been in for ages. I'd love to just hand wave that as playing favorites to the band with more pop hits, but it's not like 90125 and Big Generator weren't huge sellers in their own right! I still hear Owner Of A Lonely Heart on the radio all the time, not to mention Yes' prog stuff had more hits than Genesis' prog! That's just the tip of the iceberg.

The Rock Hall, Rolling Stone, and Pitchfork. Three very famous hacks.


They’re dumb lol
Of the millions of bands to exist there’s a reason Tull are the only band ever to have this
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Argentinfonico Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2021 at 09:52
Rolling Stone magazine has completely lost its prestige. I don't know if you've all seen their new top of "the greatest albums of all time", but it couldn't be worse. For starters, I'm going to say that The Dark Side Of The Moon is at number 55! A complete disgrace, because if you look at the albums ranked ahead, you can't believe the choices they've made. Rap, hip hop and other works that, without detracting from them at all, simply cannot be placed so far above Pink Floyd's best and most transcendent work. Close To The Edge ranks 447, far below many, many reggaeton, trap and other almost miserable genres where the music is downplayed to its most deplorable degree.

As for the works of Genesis, it is more than clear that the magazine editions that criticised the band so severely were corrupted by national and political interests. The Genesis era with Peter Gabriel is one of the most revolutionary in the history of music. Creativity is brought to its peak and all the albums that have been born from Trespass to TLLDOB are marvellous from beginning to end. The thing to do with these execrable magazines is to never read them again!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2021 at 09:56
Originally posted by Argentinfonico Argentinfonico wrote:

Rolling Stone magazine has completely lost its prestige. I don't know if you've all seen their new top of "the greatest albums of all time", but it couldn't be worse. For starters, I'm going to say that The Dark Side Of The Moon is at number 55! A complete disgrace, because if you look at the albums ranked ahead, you can't believe the choices they've made. Rap, hip hop and other works that, without detracting from them at all, simply cannot be placed so far above Pink Floyd's best and most transcendent work. Close To The Edge ranks 447, far below many, many reggaeton, trap and other almost miserable genres where the music is downplayed to its most deplorable degree.

As for the works of Genesis, it is more than clear that the magazine editions that criticised the band so severely were corrupted by national and political interests. The Genesis era with Peter Gabriel is one of the most revolutionary in the history of music. Creativity is brought to its peak and all the albums that have been born from Trespass to TLLDOB are marvellous from beginning to end. The thing to do with these execrable magazines is to never read them again!

Actually I thought their latest top 500 albums of all time list was their best one so far. Obviously there's an anti prog and an anti-metal bias, and there were way too many compilations (those just don't count guys), but there was a lot more diversity than usual and the top ten wasn't entirely 60s rock and roll.
What's wrong with hip hop? How can you be so certain that Kendrick Lamar or 2Pac or OutKast don't have an album that might compete with DSOTM in terms of pure quality?
Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2021 at 10:20
I’m with Jack. I thought the Rollong Stone 500 was pretty diverse and inclusive. Just because your tastes don’t align with Rolling Stones doesn’t mean others agree with you. I like plenty of hip hop albums more than I do DSotM, for example. Ranking albums across very different genres is very difficult to do objectively, as there are often very few points of comparison. No list is going to get it “right”, simply because there realistically is no objective ranking. But while you can’t please all the people all the time, you can attempt to come up with something that pleases as many of your intended audience as possible. And not only did RS do that, they came up with a list that people outside their intended audience (like Jack and I) didn’t think was too bad, either.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Argentinfonico Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2021 at 11:16
It has nothing to do with my tastes or my preferences. Precisely, everything I said there goes from my humble musical judgement and how I think a "best of" list should be put together, taking into account such important factors as creativity, purity, production, concept, message and many other aspects that make up the quality and immortality of a musical work. TDSOTM is probably the only album of the 20th century that has marked a before and after in the history of music. This diversity that Rolling Stone offers is populism at its purest, as the list has been created based on current critics and statistics showing the musical genres that are most listened to today. That's what I want to make clear; that there is no musical criteria here, only popular criteria! How can you place so many albums above TDSOTM (which is part of the pinnacle of general music)? Or even many of The Beatles' albums. Have you seen where Sgt Peppers has been placed now? It is undeniable that musical judgement has deteriorated to rubble because of the catastrophes caused by the internet and the severe punishments of the people through social networks.

European traditions may retain some unbreakable pillars within their music, but in other parts of the world, such as the United States or South America, creativity is increasingly limited to computers. Instruments are losing their meaning... in music! It is an absolute sin. And we are not talking about replacing them with nature sounds or purposely created to form a curious melody. Today the same electronic rhythms predominate again and again in the vast majority of created music. That it is allowed to abolish the structure that great genres such as classical music or progressive rock have created is for me something that deserves to be carefully reviewed.

Do you want to make your music like this? Fine, make it as you please. Your work is probably good and remarkable. But from there to disrespecting fundamental albums just to avoid hurting people's sensibilities (because in that list there is no musical parameter to decide it)? There is a great distance.


Edited by Argentinfonico - November 21 2021 at 11:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2021 at 11:45
^Your response above does nothing to make me think it is anything but your preferences. 😄

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2021 at 12:06
Originally posted by Argentinfonico Argentinfonico wrote:

It has nothing to do with my tastes or my preferences. Precisely, everything I said there goes from my humble musical judgement and how I think a "best of" list should be put together, taking into account such important factors as creativity, purity, production, concept, message and many other aspects that make up the quality and immortality of a musical work. TDSOTM is probably the only album of the 20th century that has marked a before and after in the history of music. This diversity that Rolling Stone offers is populism at its purest, as the list has been created based on current critics and statistics showing the musical genres that are most listened to today. That's what I want to make clear; that there is no musical criteria here, only popular criteria! How can you place so many albums above TDSOTM (which is part of the pinnacle of general music)? Or even many of The Beatles' albums. Have you seen where Sgt Peppers has been placed now? It is undeniable that musical judgement has deteriorated to rubble because of the catastrophes caused by the internet and the severe punishments of the people through social networks.

European traditions may retain some unbreakable pillars within their music, but in other parts of the world, such as the United States or South America, creativity is increasingly limited to computers. Instruments are losing their meaning... in music! It is an absolute sin. And we are not talking about replacing them with nature sounds or purposely created to form a curious melody. Today the same electronic rhythms predominate again and again in the vast majority of created music. That it is allowed to abolish the structure that great genres such as classical music or progressive rock have created is for me something that deserves to be carefully reviewed.

Do you want to make your music like this? Fine, make it as you please. Your work is probably good and remarkable. But from there to disrespecting fundamental albums just to avoid hurting people's sensibilities (because in that list there is no musical parameter to decide it)? There is a great distance.

On a site where I'm used to reading some pretty heavily biased and closed minded takes, this was a surprisingly biased and closed minded read.
Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2021 at 12:07
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

I’m with Jack. I thought the Rollong Stone 500 was pretty diverse and inclusive. Just because your tastes don’t align with Rolling Stones doesn’t mean others agree with you. I like plenty of hip hop albums more than I do DSotM, for example. Ranking albums across very different genres is very difficult to do objectively, as there are often very few points of comparison. No list is going to get it “right”, simply because there realistically is no objective ranking. But while you can’t please all the people all the time, you can attempt to come up with something that pleases as many of your intended audience as possible. And not only did RS do that, they came up with a list that people outside their intended audience (like Jack and I) didn’t think was too bad, either.


Yes! This exactly! It's definitely an impossible task to rank across the entire musical spectrum like they did, great point. Even so it wasn't a horrible list, not as bad as they have been in the past.
Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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