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siLLy puPPy View Drop Down
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:


Ultimately neither band has filler. Just music that some of us like and some of us don’t.



Well that's what filler is! LOL

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I'd be more interested to know what other music publications thought of early Genesis albums at their time of release. I don't really think the perspective of RS counts for much, then or now, in the world outside mainstream rock.

As for my own personal opinion; the early Genesis albums are imperfect. They were young, still finding their sound, developing as song writers and notoriously working with producers who either didn't have the means, skills or any idea what to do with the bands sound, until Hentschel came along. In any case I regard all the PG era albums as unique classics, including Trespass. As a band, I always felt they were leagues ahead of Yes and ELP as songwriters, but all of these bands had their own vision, and objectives, all equally valid. It just so happens the Genesis vision resonated with me more than the others.
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Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

I'd be more interested to know what other music publications thought of early Genesis albums at their time of release. I don't really think the perspective of RS counts for much, then or now, in the world outside mainstream rock.
...

Hi,

I dropped out of RS some 50 years ago, when the covers were about seeing if they could get John and Yoko nude, or Grace nude, or someone else looking very "sexy" as a way to sell more copies. When you looked inside the magazine? The same crap writers, wrote about nothing whatsoever, and many of them were so out of it as to not have any idea what the whole thing was about!

It was right then that I came across Melody Maker and it was on my hands for the next 10 years, with at least one or two trips to downtown LA to one particular news/magazine shop (still the best I ever saw in a hole on the wall!!!), that carried it along with the "New Musical Express" (I may have the name incorrect) and one or two others. MM was rather fond of Genesis right from the start and they were not happy when PG left, and had a full out middle page interview with him, even saying some things that seemed strange ... how the record company did not like long stuff, and how even the fans did not seem to like the concept pieces, which he believed was record company word'age, not from an artist. (... paraphrased ...) So in some ways, you can see my surprise when his first album was all songs, though I even I had to admit they were really fine! Something got lost in the translation, and I think that the words that MM used may not have been the right ones that PG had intended, even then, but it was a very open and honest bunch of words in my book.

By 1980, there was not a whole lot of these to read. I was able to get MM occasionally all the way to 1990, but then it went off the cliff somewhere and I could no longer afford it. However, relief was in sight as the Internet replaced the majority of many of these rags and their very stupid comments, though you and I will admit that half the stuff we read is not exactly the stuff that we wish to relate to "progressive" anything whatsoever.

Critics, for the most part ... in those days ... were very vindictive because of various reasons, and many books by groupies bring this out quite a bit, including one (on kindle!) that has a journalist getting to bonk two groupies for saying nice things, and then asking for more to say anything else .... are you surprised? I'm not, and I don't think that story is just a story ... given the kissing on rags like RS, I would suggest that there was a lot more of this than we thought, but that some artists probably gave it a finger and told them to get lost ... Neil Young being one and very famous for that, and his vindication came later when he is still playing and around ... and those folks that wrote all the crap are non-existent ... but that RS guy got many millions for it! Did he care about the music? I doubt it, when he became the rich man ... that one film about the story of the Woodstock producers said the same thing ... the guy was now looking at the gold in the sky ... only to produce one of the darkest moments in rock history!
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:


Ultimately neither band has filler. Just music that some of us like and some of us don’t.



Well that's what filler is! LOL

Really? In that case, I’ve completely misunderstood what people mean when they say filler. To me, the term implies unimportant and unnecessary material added to bulk up or flesh out an album - which is something very different from simply “music I don’t like”. 🤷🏻‍♂️
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:


Ultimately neither band has filler. Just music that some of us like and some of us don’t.



Well that's what filler is! LOL

Really? In that case, I’ve completely misunderstood what people mean when they say filler. To me, the term implies unimportant and unnecessary material added to bulk up or flesh out an album - which is something very different from simply “music I don’t like”. 🤷🏻‍♂️



And all of that is of course subjective! So the music we don't like is filler! Sometimes we all agree though :)

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This continues to be a quite a fascinating discussion and has been very helpful for me to reflect on the question I posed at the start, so thanks very much to all who have contributed. The thoughts expressed on various music critics and publications are certainly interesting (and educative for me), and I also appreciate the differing views of Genesis’ music. Without getting into a debate on the quality of the music itself, it is evident from the premise of my question that I think highly of early Genesis prog albums, and I believe my taste is supported by the enduring influence of this music (as an inspiration to other bands and countless Genesis tribute bands), the fact that most of these albums (including NS) continue to be on average highly rated by prog fans themselves (on this site and others), and the general recognition these albums receive in rock-related references (for instance, as recommended prog-rock recordings in the All Music Guide, among others). Of course, I may still be wrong in my esteem of early Genesis music, but ignoring that possibility for the moment, the question of why their albums received, relatively-speaking, less than an enthusiastic reception by much of the critical establishment at the time (apparently more so in the US than in the UK) is worth asking, though I do recognize, as others have pointed out, that Genesis did also receive positive reviews in its early days (just not on the level of Yes, ELP, Crimson and Tull among others). On this question, I noted that the key reasons given so far, in no particular order, are:

1. Early Genesis was “too English” (particularly for Americans, though it seems Belgians and Italians did not seem to care).

2. Genesis was too theatrical for some tastes (I think that’s valid for their live shows and is also inherent to some extent in the music itself)

3. Many critics are too stupid (to put it more politely than some others have) J

4. Early albums were too poorly produced (I think this is particularly relevant for Trespass and Nursery Cryme, though it did not bother me that much)

I agree with all of these reasons, and would like to add another one, which is related to the first three, but takes a somewhat different bend. To put it simply, people who consider themselves to be at least moderately educated Rock music listeners (and I am vain enough to include myself in this lot), often have pre-conceived notions of what Rock should be about, and this prevents them from appreciating the value of music that does not fit into such pre-conceived notions. While it’s true that early Genesis may have been very English, theatrical, artsy, lyrically esoteric, and even quirky at times, these in themselves have nothing to do with the quality of the music itself. Yet, these characteristics do not correspond to what many conceive Rock music ought to be, even though it is always those artists who push music genres beyond their boundaries that make the music continue to evolve and be relevant. For instance, I’ve read many times that the only track on Trespass that is any good is The Knife. The only reason I see given is that The Knife “rocks hard”, while other tracks are imaginative but mostly idyllic, pastoral pieces. Now anybody who has actually carefully listened to Trespass knows this is not true, but the implication by some here is that, in Rock, loud and fast-paced electric guitar-led music is good, while music that incorporates gentle pastoral elements is bad – as if this was not simply a question of taste. All this to say that, to truly appreciate music, I think it is most important to put our pre-conceived notions aside and listen to it with an open mind, something which is not actually easy to do, but in the end much more rewarding. I realize I’m stating something that is rather obvious for many here, but think it is particularly relevant when considering the early reception of Genesis’ music and that of many other progressive bands.    
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Originally posted by Philchem8 Philchem8 wrote:

...

1. Early Genesis was “too English” (particularly for Americans, though it seems Belgians and Italians did not seem to care).

2. Genesis was too theatrical for some tastes (I think that’s valid for their live shows and is also inherent to some extent in the music itself)

3. Many critics are too stupid (to put it more politely than some others have) J

...

1. Weird ... even here on PA folks say the same thing about just about all the other nationalities and their music! It gets old reading that Italian bands don't sound like English ones, and neither do French or German bands!

IT'S ABOUT THE MUSIC .... not the nationality! It has been so for a long time! Why do we not stop allowing folks to say silly things that it was "too english"? So what? So was theater, film, literature ... and no one complained. But rock folks complain about anything, right?

2. That's a bunch of bull, since at the time, not many bands were doing something that could be considered "theatrical" at all, although one can point to OSANNA, ANGE, and then (eventually) to PF who did this theatricality with sound effects going all around the arena/venue in their "quadraphonic" sound system!

A reminder that sound, voice, singing, music and everything else came from the same "source" many years ago, when in the days of the Greek Theater they were together, and not apart. So seeing some bands take it seriously and directly is fine with me, except that you are telling me that fans want more Chuck Berry than they want intelligent music and presentations?

3. Critics are not (usually) stupid. But some of them have a knack for saying things that are really nasty and out of touch. I have been accused of that, however, never on a review! AND, that is the main reason why I do not do Top 5/10 because of the sacred cow and bullpucky aspect of it that makes too many fans defensive! 

There have been times when something really bad was said ... like an idiot saying Tangerine Dream sounded like "washing machine music" ... but the worst part of it? No one EVER said anything to shut that idiot up and get rid of him and his attitude towards music. He obviously needed to go back to washing dishes at McD's to learn what music was all about! PA, at least, will hammer folks that DO SAY bad things and specially when they are out of line. But the problem is not the "critic" ... it's the "opinion" that everyone believes is supposed to be "subjective" and NEVER objective, specially when it comes to the arts! That's a fan for you!
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Originally posted by Cosmiclawnmower Cosmiclawnmower wrote:

... KE about Genesis ...

Hi,

So said the man that selected two Italian bands to inaugurate his label Manticore! How soon we forget how he appreciated a lot of music, that we don't!
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Early Genesis is generally overrated (I say this as someone who puts them in my top five bands). A comment by Silly Puppy above suggests they 'came of age' with SEBTP yet this is the album that contains Battle Of Epping Forest (too much larking about , if ELP did this they would have been panned beyond reason) , More Fool Me and I Know What I Like (yawn) . Fantastic other tracks admittedly but is it really enough? Possibly the only real masterpiece in the Gabriel era could have been Lamb if has been about 10 minutes shorter. They were the band of the 'filler' material but somehow they get away with a lot more than other bands (ie ELP) who had less filler and more technically innovative. It is correctly pointed out that the production of NC was Muddy . Yes it really was although it was fixed in 2007 thankfully.
For me their best albums are the four that followed Gabriel's departure.  The split did neither of them any harm in my book and both took progressive rock onwards in their own ways. Genesis streamlined it and became a bit commercial (a terrible sin) but they had developed as a much more powerful band especially holding their own live with the best around. That's just in my opinion of course!

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Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

I'd be more interested to know what other music publications thought of early Genesis albums at their time of release. I don't really think the perspective of RS counts for much, then or now, in the world outside mainstream rock.

As for my own personal opinion; the early Genesis albums are imperfect. They were young, still finding their sound, developing as song writers and notoriously working with producers who either didn't have the means, skills or any idea what to do with the bands sound, until Hentschel came along. In any case I regard all the PG era albums as unique classics, including Trespass. As a band, I always felt they were leagues ahead of Yes and ELP as songwriters, but all of these bands had their own vision, and objectives, all equally valid. It just so happens the Genesis vision resonated with me more than the others.

I don't think RS's opinion counts much even IN the world of mainstream rock. They called Queen fascists and gave Led Zeppelin IV a single paragraph review, which was pretty middling. Those takes aged terribly, and the stink was pretty noticeable from the start.
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Originally posted by Cosmiclawnmower Cosmiclawnmower wrote:



That's a trustworthy reviewer right there! Thumbs Up
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Originally posted by Philchem8 Philchem8 wrote:

This continues to be a quite a fascinating discussion and has been very helpful for me to reflect on the question I posed at the start, so thanks very much to all who have contributed. The thoughts expressed on various music critics and publications are certainly interesting (and educative for me), and I also appreciate the differing views of Genesis’ music. Without getting into a debate on the quality of the music itself, it is evident from the premise of my question that I think highly of early Genesis prog albums, and I believe my taste is supported by the enduring influence of this music (as an inspiration to other bands and countless Genesis tribute bands), the fact that most of these albums (including NS) continue to be on average highly rated by prog fans themselves (on this site and others), and the general recognition these albums receive in rock-related references (for instance, as recommended prog-rock recordings in the All Music Guide, among others). Of course, I may still be wrong in my esteem of early Genesis music, but ignoring that possibility for the moment, the question of why their albums received, relatively-speaking, less than an enthusiastic reception by much of the critical establishment at the time (apparently more so in the US than in the UK) is worth asking, though I do recognize, as others have pointed out, that Genesis did also receive positive reviews in its early days (just not on the level of Yes, ELP, Crimson and Tull among others). On this question, I noted that the key reasons given so far, in no particular order, are:

1. Early Genesis was “too English” (particularly for Americans, though it seems Belgians and Italians did not seem to care).

2. Genesis was too theatrical for some tastes (I think that’s valid for their live shows and is also inherent to some extent in the music itself)

3. Many critics are too stupid (to put it more politely than some others have) J

4. Early albums were too poorly produced (I think this is particularly relevant for Trespass and Nursery Cryme, though it did not bother me that much)

I agree with all of these reasons, and would like to add another one, which is related to the first three, but takes a somewhat different bend. To put it simply, people who consider themselves to be at least moderately educated Rock music listeners (and I am vain enough to include myself in this lot), often have pre-conceived notions of what Rock should be about, and this prevents them from appreciating the value of music that does not fit into such pre-conceived notions. While it’s true that early Genesis may have been very English, theatrical, artsy, lyrically esoteric, and even quirky at times, these in themselves have nothing to do with the quality of the music itself. Yet, these characteristics do not correspond to what many conceive Rock music ought to be, even though it is always those artists who push music genres beyond their boundaries that make the music continue to evolve and be relevant. For instance, I’ve read many times that the only track on Trespass that is any good is The Knife. The only reason I see given is that The Knife “rocks hard”, while other tracks are imaginative but mostly idyllic, pastoral pieces. Now anybody who has actually carefully listened to Trespass knows this is not true, but the implication by some here is that, in Rock, loud and fast-paced electric guitar-led music is good, while music that incorporates gentle pastoral elements is bad – as if this was not simply a question of taste. All this to say that, to truly appreciate music, I think it is most important to put our pre-conceived notions aside and listen to it with an open mind, something which is not actually easy to do, but in the end much more rewarding. I realize I’m stating something that is rather obvious for many here, but think it is particularly relevant when considering the early reception of Genesis’ music and that of many other progressive bands.    

This is a great post! I totally agree with the last part too. Sure The Knife is the heaviest rocker and a heckuva closer on Trespass, but Visions Of Angels get stuck in my head all the time! Looking For Someone is basically the sound of Gabriel discovering just how resonant his voice can be. It's a great album all around, excellent reading music actually. Pastoral, sure, but what a pasture!
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Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

... (about the quality of recordings)

Sure The Knife is the heaviest rocker and a heckuva closer on Trespass, but Visions Of Angels get stuck in my head all the time! Looking For Someone is basically the sound of Gabriel discovering just how resonant his voice can be. It's a great album all around, excellent reading music actually. Pastoral, sure, but what a pasture!

Hi,

I'm not sure that all bands got a good recording of a lot of their music at the start. Studio time was expensive and a band on their first or second album that did not sell a whole lot, would likely not get a whole lot of attention at all.

Compare some of those recordings to a lot of the Canterbury stuff that was not recorded well, either, however, the quality of the music gave us a thrill and we still love it today. 

All in all, it is all just about a measure of what the time had to offer, and remember that DSOTM was, at the time, considered the pinnacle of rock music recording. Up until then, I suppose that the best there was came from George Martin, and Muscle Shoals, but it was another man Tom Dowd, that helped make famous one of the most played songs ever ... Layla ... when he heard something that had to be done! (It's on his special).

A lot of the European music suffers from the lack of decent recording materials as well, but somehow, the music itself came alive, and to me, that is the most important factor of all.
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Just to clarify, I don't think I or anyone in this discussion was saying that they found early Genesis was too English or too theatrical, but rather that they may have been perceived as such by some critics and audiences, particularly in the US. Without going further on these points, I think there's some evidence of that, but of course, these are just opinions. In terms of critics being too stupid, I was synthesizing in jest many of the opinions shared on some of the critics, particularly from RS, on Genesis and other music. But I do not believe critics are stupid in general and I'm sorry if I caused any offence.
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My previous post was in response to Moshkito, but didn't show up as such.
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Thanks Sacro Porgo. Agree, Visions of Angels is a relatively little know gem from early Genesis, and Trespass is quite a pasture indeed, even if not quite on the level of their subsequent work. Each track on the album is clearly distinctive from the others and has something to offer. My favourite is Stagnation, which I think also points the most to their future direction.
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Originally posted by Philchem8 Philchem8 wrote:

Thanks Sacro Porgo. Agree, Visions of Angels is a relatively little know gem from early Genesis, and Trespass is quite a pasture indeed, even if not quite on the level of their subsequent work. Each track on the album is clearly distinctive from the others and has something to offer. My favourite is Stagnation, which I think also points the most to their future direction.

And parts of Stagnation are still played at Genesis live gigs to this day.
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When an expert on English progressive rock talks, one needs to listen. Fortunately, RS is not in that category.
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

... (about the quality of recordings)

Sure The Knife is the heaviest rocker and a heckuva closer on Trespass, but Visions Of Angels get stuck in my head all the time! Looking For Someone is basically the sound of Gabriel discovering just how resonant his voice can be. It's a great album all around, excellent reading music actually. Pastoral, sure, but what a pasture!

Hi,

I'm not sure that all bands got a good recording of a lot of their music at the start. Studio time was expensive and a band on their first or second album that did not sell a whole lot, would likely not get a whole lot of attention at all.

Compare some of those recordings to a lot of the Canterbury stuff that was not recorded well, either, however, the quality of the music gave us a thrill and we still love it today. 

All in all, it is all just about a measure of what the time had to offer, and remember that DSOTM was, at the time, considered the pinnacle of rock music recording. Up until then, I suppose that the best there was came from George Martin, and Muscle Shoals, but it was another man Tom Dowd, that helped make famous one of the most played songs ever ... Layla ... when he heard something that had to be done! (It's on his special).

A lot of the European music suffers from the lack of decent recording materials as well, but somehow, the music itself came alive, and to me, that is the most important factor of all.

Yes, those are indeed some of the reasons why the production on Nursery Cryme (and many other early prog albums) is pretty bad. Of course I probably wouldn't be on this site if it was so bad as to be unlistenable! And here I am.
Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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