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Rearrange PA top 20 to your personal tastes |
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Online Points: 18071 |
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Hi, You are misrepresenting my concerns and thoughts. There is no composer out there that will PURPOSEDLY create a bunch of "filler" for any piece of music ... some of it might be a transition part or portion, but in the end, what some folks here call "filler", is more about their inability to know/understand what some of the material without lyrics is all about. We have forgotten to CLOSE OUR EYES and just listen to the music. And one does not need a "title" to tell the listeners what it is (supposedly) all about. I might write something that is about this and that, and you don't see it, just like you are not seeing it here. I'm standing up for the music, or in a sense, for the composition and the work. It had absolutely nothing to do with your idea that I was thrashing your comments, that obviously were not about "filler", although I sense a certain amount of doubt as to why/what is there in the first place. Let's just say that a lot of the "filler" material is "literal" and not exactly idealistic. The harder part is calling a lot of Tchaikovsky's music "pastoral", and no one has any idea what all those passages are all about and how they connect and go together. This is all I'm fighting against, and is something that has cropped up by rock fans, who detest music that doesn't tell them what it is all about in lyrics. The history of "rock'n'roll" has not been so much about MUSIC, as it has been about LYRICS telling people what this song is all about ... and worse, we believe them all ... and still think that "minor" is sad, and "major" is happy, even though many have shown that to not be true at all ... it's just conditioning!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Online Points: 18071 |
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Hi, I take a softer stance on this ... things may have been this and that, but everyone said the same thing about Jimi, Janis, Jim and others, and all they were doing is being themselves so hard, and so much, on a stage that it was difficult for many to relate to ... 40 to 50 years later, when so much music is thought to be "great" and it has very little depth of feeling, other than ... just ideas! Jimi, Janis and Jim were so strong, that many folks could not relate to it, even then ... heck, Joe Cocker was laughed off real quick and all of a sudden, people got used to his voice, and he ended up really being very strong. Same for Roger Chapman (Chappo/Family). The one thing I know about college/university is this when it comes to music ... ANYONE that creates a piece of music and call it a suite, or a concerto, or something that is usually meant for music and composers long DEAD, has no chance whatsoever. Someone like Keith coming to his mates ... look, I got a concerto here, how do we do this? And he shows TARKUS ... and they worked it to perfection in the end ... and then one day you listen to Rachel Flowers do this on the piano (and organ at a different time) and she just absolutely displayed what a magnificent piece of music it was ... but in those days, no one was going to pay to hear this within the rock music idiom ... and we are still punishing Keith (and ELP) for this ... he died because no one understood and appreciated his classical abilities and how he had to change them to get somewhere ... something that is gut wrenching to anyone that has any creative juices. You take your baby and you defile it so it satisfies something else. I suppose that Keith was appreciative that it still got made and played, but I imagine that the lack of seeing what a piano concerto (how else would he show it to his mates?) was done, would in later years have him in tears ... I created all this, for a mucking song only, and no one sees anything in it! It will kill your spirit! That said, seeing things like "Love Beach" was almost a finger to a record company, and even fans! They want crap, let them have it! Reminds me of a few composers that when their pieces were introduced they were booed and made fun of, and some of them even lost their commissions and jobs. Only to find out later that their work was excellent, and has stood the test of time ... at least in the last 100 years. How many more died without that pleasure and ability since we have been able to hear the music and eventually have it recorded?
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Psychedelic Paul ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 16 2019 Location: Nottingham, U.K Status: Offline Points: 43474 |
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C'est La Vie. I wasn't a fan of ELP From the Beginning either, and I still find it hard to get into the pomp and bombast of Trilogy and Brain Salad Surgery, but then I discovered Love Beach and everything changed. In other words, I prefer the softer romantic side of ELP to their harder-edged, pompous prog side, even if it means being sometimes ridiculed for my atypical tastes in music.
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BaldJean ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
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anyone who calls "Moonchild" "filler" just hasn't understood what the track is about. I wrote a whole post about it once
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![]() A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
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Sacro_Porgo ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 15 2019 Location: Cygnus Status: Offline Points: 2062 |
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I grow very quickly tired of your responses. You always take what I say and spin it some way I didn't mean, or go off on some tangent about how music is being destroyed by people's perspectives of it. Lighten up or lay off. If you'd take a closer look at my post, you'd realize I was making an argument against caring so much about filler this and filler that, which seems to be in line with your perspective. Furthermore, you cropped my post to just the part you wanted to rant about and didn't include the part where I mentioned I actually like most of the songs I had listed as filler. I have plenty more things to say about More Fool Me, Moonchild, We Have Heaven, etc... good and bad! A song can be filler and still be interesting to discuss.
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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Online Points: 18071 |
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Hi, With all due respect ... I find it sad that all one can say is call "filler" on some parts of the music, when it has been a part of music history for THOUSANDS OF MUCHING YEARS, and not one is saying that Vivaldi or Beethoven was not guilty of it. The "filler" is there for a reason, that many top of the pop listeners can not understand, because it has no lyrics ... and it is often much easier to say that these folks lack the imagination to listen, if they have to have lyrics to tell them what the "filler" is all about. I'm sorry ... but every time I read about "filler" this or that, I just want to throw up ... so all of music has come to this, a bunch of fans considering 90% of all the music that has EVER been made, just a bunch of crap that means nothing. This has to stop. We're destroying progressive music and its monumental passages of music! This is not top ten!!!!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Rick1 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 14 2020 Location: Loughborough UK Status: Offline Points: 2925 |
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^Rush were 'second wave' or 'second movers'...in other words, progressive templates had been established from around 1968 onwards - Genesis were the same to a certain extent. Rush innovated around the margins in the early 80s once they had overcome the sophisticated heavy rock extended formats.
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Grumpyprogfan ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 09 2019 Location: Kansas City Status: Offline Points: 12400 |
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^Rush was also creative and innovative. Why is it such a big deal that a band you think should be in the top twenty isn't?
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Rick1 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 14 2020 Location: Loughborough UK Status: Offline Points: 2925 |
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I have read this thread with interest. I think ELP were genuinely innovative and creative but they irk prog fans because only around 50% of their canon was what the purists would consider to be prog - they spanned so many genres. The Works Vol II album offers a good example of the sheer diversity of their music and so they transcended the genre. Not many bands really did that. I love their non-prog stuff as much as Tarkus and the rest. So, let the experts keep Rush in the top 20!
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Sacro_Porgo ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 15 2019 Location: Cygnus Status: Offline Points: 2062 |
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I'm an ELP fan (though they're not a hardcore favorite), and I think most of these critiques are pretty accurate.
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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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jamesbaldwin ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: September 25 2015 Location: Milano Status: Offline Points: 6052 |
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I share this analysis by Greg-Logan. As you know, I'm not an EL&P fan, and I don't think any of their records would have a place in my top ... 300? I have reviewed three of their most popular albums (EL&P, Tarkus, Pictures) and they didn't go beyond three stars (Pictures 2 stars). Since Trilogy will not do better, if Brain Salad Surgery, which I have to listen again carefully, does not get 4 stars, none of their albums will have high quotations in my personal ranking. Obviously, my opinions and judgments are personal and subjective. I understand who loves EL&P: they are three great virtuosos, technically very skilled instrumentalists, and Lake has a beautiful voice, they have written very elaborate suites so ... why are they not at the top of the chart? I don't know, I can't answer for everyone. I say because in my personal ranking they never reach 5 stars, and perhaps not even 4 stars. In my opinion, they are very limited at a compositional and melodic level. As often happens with the great virtuosos, they are too focused on showing off their skills, obtaining an oversaturation of the sound. Their records are full of fillers: but the suites are also very forced in their passages, compensating with power and rhythm for the lack of beautiful moments for melody or harmony or composition. Paradoxically, the best songs are the simplest and most melodic ones written by Lake and embellished by his voice where Emerson and Palmer do not exceed too much in virtuosity and try to maintain a recognizable compositional line (Take a Pebble is perhaps their song that I love more). As Greg said, the effort of Emerson and Palmer produces that sense which, if not accompanied by an epic and beautiful melody, becomes simply boisterous, and in fact in many ways they play hard-rock. I prefer Robinson from Quatermass as keyboard player or even Pagliuca de Le Orme to Emerson, and the latter was inspired by Emerson and Robinson. Palmer's flaw is more or less that of Keth Moon: too overwhelming - Bruford for example proposed himself as the opposite of Moon. A tennis player must know how to play with power but also with touch. Emerson also plays by touch, but in most cases, he exhibits his technique rather than a beautiful musical theme. Overall, I don't see any albums by EL&P that are balanced and have very high average song quality. It could be the debut, but apart from the first two songs, the rest doesn't hold up, especially the ones with the more aggressive synths. Now EL & P fans will hate me: sorry, these are just my opinions, expressed sincerely. If you want to take revenge, say the worst things about Van der Graaf! ![]() Anyway, as I've already written several times, the importance of EL&P for the development of symphonic prog is big, they were indisputably masters. I wanted to add that, unlike Greg, I think Dream Theater is a very different case of EL&P because they are very gifted in terms of composition and melody. They exceed in grandeur, in prolixity, no doubt, but they do so on the basis of truly beautiful epic compositions; their other limit is, if anything, in the monotony of the arrangements. If you dont like the heavy metal sound, it will be difficult to love them. But overall, while EL & P is a trio of soloists who each go their own way, Dream Theater is a true group, they produced a play worthy of a true team. Edited by jamesbaldwin - October 14 2021 at 17:13 |
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Catcher10 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: December 23 2009 Location: Emerald City Status: Offline Points: 17966 |
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We look at ELP today and make all these comments.....but what about how they came on the scene back in 1970. Rock fans back then drank the ELP kool aid like it was the nectar of the Gods, they were massively popular and played to packed arenas and it's the same music that today we criticize as pompous or filler......Are we just repeating what the rock magazine critic said back then??
As music fans we are not supposed to care what a critic writes, they don't know krapp right!!?? Clearly what ELP did back then mixing classical music, motifs struck a huge chord in the traditional rock fan in 1970, it was different for sure.
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Sacro_Porgo ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 15 2019 Location: Cygnus Status: Offline Points: 2062 |
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And that's one argument I absolutely predicted. There's no problem with this argument, except that I don't think ELP's filler is the whole story of why they're considered by many to a be a tier below the upper echelon of prog. A part of it, yes, but not the whole thing.
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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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Lewian ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 15151 |
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...all of which are OK to very good, and charming at the very least (according to my taste that is, of course). And all of which dominate at least 90% of ELP fillers. Edited by Lewian - October 14 2021 at 15:29 |
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Logan ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 37240 |
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^^ That's basically it, it, ELP, doesn't connect with a lot of people (including me). And it seems excessive and showy in a way to me that doesn't appeal, or that I can easily relate to. I do still like the self-titled, and can enjoy various ELP music. I do like various quite pompous music. Magma is pompous I would say, but I still like Magma. I do feel like ELP has dated in a way that doesn't appeal, and it has a sort of arena rock quality that I don't like. I would have rather had it burned slower in a way, had they toned it down, been more subtle, more reserved. Sometimes they were. They can seem quite show-offy. They seem a bit too yobbo for me. It's a similar issue I have with bands like Dream Theater, which I can't relate to.
Edited by Logan - October 14 2021 at 13:15 |
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Psychedelic Paul ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 16 2019 Location: Nottingham, U.K Status: Offline Points: 43474 |
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What's wrong with ELP?
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Sacro_Porgo ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 15 2019 Location: Cygnus Status: Offline Points: 2062 |
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The thing is though, ELP seem more often berated for their filler than, say Genesis, or King Crimson. Selling England isn't filler free, it seems most people take issue with either More Fool Me or The Battle Of Epping Forest. In The Court Of The Crimson King has Moonchild. In The Wake Of Poseidon has The Devil's Triangle. Fragile is filler heaven. Meddle has Seamus. Even A Passion Play, though it's technically one song, has The Tale Of The Rabbit Who Lost His Spectacles. Love To Love You from In The Land Of Grey And Pink is often looked down upon.
My point is there must be something about ELP in general, even at their best, which doesn't connect with people like many of the classic albums I mentioned above do. You can blame the filler, maybe even make a case that ELP's filler was worse than other bands, or that they never got a filler free album even once (unlike their more highly regarded contemporaries), but I think there's more to it than that. I think Tarkus doesn't connect with people as well as Echoes or Supper's Ready. Karn Evil 9 doesn't feel as essential to people as Thick As A Brick. As a side note I'm not speaking about my own feelings about any of this music in the above statements. I think it's basically all fantastic (though I'm not the biggest fan of The Devil's Triangle, Moonchild, or Seamus). ELP deserve a renaissance if you ask me. They burned fast, but intensely bright.
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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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Catcher10 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: December 23 2009 Location: Emerald City Status: Offline Points: 17966 |
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ELP are simply a weird band, meaning their albums are weird. I enjoy spinning me some ELP, have all their early albums including Works I and In Concert, I have multiple copies of ELP, Tarkus, Pictures and Trilogy.
But they would not make my Top 20 bands, I don't think.....mad skills for sure. It is such a chore to spin Side II of Tarkus.
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Logan ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 37240 |
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I have some issue with the whole notion of just deserts when it comes to how people generally rate (an amalgamation) albums. Sure some individuals are unfair, but it's a top-rated list, not as some at this forum have seemed to think a most significant to Prog list. At rateyourmusic, which is a general music site with a huge number of genres to peruse and highlight in the charts, I wouldn't say they have self-appointed high priests of Prog (not that I'd really say the same here either, this is better thought of as a coven ;) ), yet that general audience does not favour ELP albums either. Two sites with different systems, neither of which place ELP albums highly. ELP does better here in the ranking than there. I do agree that the albums generally seem flawed, and I think that ELP was showy in their way doesn't help. ELP dated badly more than many other classic prog bands for me. As one PA person once put it, "You just had to be there". Well, lots of us weren't, and even if we were, that doesn't mean we liked it then, or if we did, still do. I used to like ELP more than I do now.
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TheEliteExtremophile ![]() Forum Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: August 23 2021 Location: Seattle Status: Offline Points: 68 |
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I have to disagree. Every single one of ELP's studio albums has at least one massive glaring flaw, with the possible exception of their self-titled. ELP were great at big, flashy showpieces (Karn Evil 9, Tarkus, etc.) but often struggled to fill out the runtime of an album with anything worthwhile.
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